Visas and Outsourcing

[Joe Pluta]

In an effort to shake of my image as bland and non-controverisal , I have just published an article on visas and outsourcing that some of you might find interesting.
Click here to read the article.
Joe

[Mark Fletcher]

Interesting article Joe, I enjoyed reading it
But isnt this more on topic in Jobs Dicussion?
Mark

[Joe Pluta]

I don't know, Mark. I was afraid to post a link to my own stuff anywhere but here in MD, where just about anything goes .
If you feel it's appropriate there, feel free to post a link to it, and then I won't feel so self-serving .
Joe

[R K Singh]

Nice article except the mailing part.
I have seen equivalent foolish questions from non-Indians also and it suggests nothing.
So IMO, article's this part[Isn't It Just Cheap Labor?] does not bring up anything.[edited by RK]
[again edited a joke]
[reminds me of the post in which russian argues his friend to include Russia in joke ]
[ November 24, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Jason Menard]

I'm going to move this to Jobs Discussion.

[Joe Pluta]

And I am happy, there are people who are anti-Indian.
I am not anti-Indian. I am anti-visa. I am not against the visa holders, but against the people who abuse them. I have said this to you many times, Ravish, and yet you continue to rant that I am anti-Indian.
I am not. I have worked with programmers from all over the globe: India, Russia, Israel, Pakistan, China, Belgium, Mexico, you name it. I have no problem with the workers or their countries of origin. My problem is with multi-national corporations who abuse visa policies to put American workers on American soil working on American equipment out of work by replacing them with cheap foreign laborers, from whatever country.
Not only that, I have told you this specifically and publicly, Ravish, and yet you insist on misrepresenting my position. I am really tired of you making up words and putting them in my mouth, and I demand that you stop defaming me.
Joe

[Paul McKenna]

Joe,
While your article made some very very sensible points, I would advise you that some of the references you make might give a reader the impression that you are xenophobic.
The reference sites that you point to, specifically F.A.I.R and NumbersUSA are highly xenophobic. They dont want just an end to the work permits but to all immigration. Do you also support that?

[Joe Pluta]

Paul: I would advise you that some of the references you make might give a reader the impression that you are xenophobic.
Paul, all I did was report. Whether the sites I listed are xenophobic or not, they provide valuable services for accessing Congress and the Congressional record on various topics, and that's why I provided links to them. On retrospect, it's not surprising that the only people who are interested in Congress are obviously upset with the State of the Union, and that includes immigration.
As to "want an end to all immigration", I don't think that's in their charter either, but I'm not sure, because frankly that's not the issue I'm interested in. Do you have quotes from these sites saying they want to end all immigration, or are they instead talking about reducing immigration?
Personally, I don't have a problem with the immigration laws, so I haven't really done too much study on the matter. My daughter-in-law is an Iraqi immigrant, and my grandparents came from the Old Country, so I'm hardly anti-immigration.
In any event, they are the sites where it is easiest to find information on visa policies, which is not surprising if you think about it. But I've never said a word about immigration, so if there are people out there who choose to draw conclusions without actually asking me directly, well, there's not a lot I can do about that.
Joe

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
As to "want an end to all immigration", I don't think that's in their charter either, but I'm not sure, because frankly that's not the issue I'm interested in. Do you have quotes from these sites saying they want to end all immigration, or are they instead talking about reducing immigration?

Joe,
I can definetly point out specific quotes in their website that give the specific notion that an end to immigration is necessary. I have been reading these websites for over a year now, so I am very very familiar with their content. Infact I not only visit these websites I visit a host of others from stormfront to the klan. You'll be surprised how much these two (FAIR and NumbersUSA) have in common with Stormfront.org
You might want to check out vdare.org too, these people talk a lot about the work permits too but subtly feed you with klan like ideologies.
I cant give you specific quotes right now since I am at work but I will definetly do so later today evening.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
But I've never said a word about immigration, so if there are people out there who choose to draw conclusions without actually asking me directly, well, there's not a lot I can do about that.

I would request that you reconsider that approach. People are likely to draw conclusions based upon your remarks and those conclusions aren't going to be limited to the area of work-permits. On the other hand, you stand to gain more credibility when you make it clear in your article that you do not oppose immigration but the concept of work permits

[Joe Pluta]

I can definetly point out specific quotes in their website that give the specific notion that an end to immigration is necessary.
Sorry, Paul, but I just reviewed the Fairus.org and there's nothing there about stopping all immigration. There are some very specific issues on how they believe that too much immigration can cause problems, and they also have a real hot button about giving social benefits to non-citizens. But nothing about shutting down the border. Whether I agree or don't agree with their positions on all issues, the opinions seem to be based on logic rather than hatred.

You'll be surprised how much these two (FAIR and NumbersUSA) have in common with (a white supremacist site whose URL I refuse to print)
Okay, I wasted an hour on this and I can say with certainty that the two have different agendas. You may not like the idea that Fairus.org want lowered immigration numbers, but it's definitely not a klan site like the one you mentioned.
I was worried for a moment - I could imagine how a well-crafted site could espouse racist rhetoric in the guise of protectionist policy, and I'd have felt pretty lousy if I'd been guilty of even mentioning such a site. But while the sites I listed in my article lean pretty heavily towards more protectionist statutes, they're far from the hood-wearing hatred spewed forth from the supremacist sites.
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

Paul: I would request that you reconsider that approach. People are likely to draw conclusions based upon your remarks and those conclusions aren't going to be limited to the area of work-permits. On the other hand, you stand to gain more credibility when you make it clear in your article that you do not oppose immigration but the concept of work permits
Paul, thanks for your opinion, but I disagree. As the title and content of the article clearly delineate, the article was about visas and outsourcing, not immigration. I said nothing about immigration, and so anybody drawing conclusions in that area is mistaken. If you think something needs to be said, there's a discussion forum available on that website to post your views.
Joe

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I am not anti-Indian. ...yet you continue to rant that I am anti-Indian.

I can feel your pain because I have gone through it and for me now its a part of MD life and even I enjoy it now.
AW I was just kidding.
It happens lot of times that you are expecting a reply with a quote, which you think deserve an answer; you get a reply for a joke.
Joe, you did not say anything about :

I have seen equivalent foolish questions from non-Indians.

So what are you trying to suggest by posting those questions in your article ??

[Joe Pluta]

So what are you trying to suggest by posting those questions in your article ??
These questions were posted by workers for outsourcing firms that advertise their programming expertise in order to win contracts. As can be seen from these questions, these firms assign programmers who don't even know how the machine works. So in effect, companies that outsource their work to Wipro are replacing seasoned iSeries veterans with people who don't know the machine. Thus the phrase "you get what you pay for."
Joe

[Paul McKenna]

Joe,
For a person of your intelligence I find it rather odd that you engage in meaningless trolls initiated by Ravish.
Ravish,
Your singal to noise ratio is lopsided .. you need to do something about it.

[R K Singh]

Hello,
I'm a Java programmer and I've read on an article about HTTP communication
that "HTTP is a stateless protocol", what does it mean?
that I cannot store information about the session? but I know for sure it's
possible on a Server Application to store information about the session....
Any clue, suggestion ?
[Name withheld]

My point is that, such questions can be asked by anyone, even by US programmers.
AW I am done.
Article is good except mailing part.

[Joe Pluta]

For a person of your intelligence I find it rather odd that you engage in meaningless trolls initiated by Ravish.
After enough silliness on MD, I learned that some people take even self-contradicting statements seriously, and worse, that silence is assumed to be assent. So when Ravish says something that will confuse the issue, I respond simply and directly to the issue that is being confused. As I will, for example, with the comment he just made on an HTTP newbie asking a question on a mailing list (as opposed to someone from a company like Wipro that supposedly has this experience in-house).
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

My point is that, such questions can be asked by anyone, even by US programmers.
This isn't about American programmers vs. Indian programmers, Ravish. Leave your prejudices out of this.
This is about a company, Wipro, that advertises a high degree of competence in order to win outsourcing contracts, but yet gives projects to programmers who don't even understand the basics of the machine they are working on. These contracts displace American workers.
And evidently, there's not even anyone in the shop whom this programmer can ask; he has to ask on a mailing list. That speaks very poorly for the level of expertise at Wipro.
Joe

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
with the comment he just made on an HTTP newbie asking a question on a mailing list (as opposed to someone from a company like Wipro that supposedly has this experience in-house).
Joe

I beg your pardon, when a person claims to be a programmer, it means, he is working for some company.
And how do you know that a person who had asked those questions were not from a newbie? [actually I wanted to point it out at that time only.]
Second, do you know what is the end result after code review ?
As a fact, you dont know what is the final code.
So when Ravish says something that will confuse the issue, I respond simply and directly to the issue that is being confused.
Thanks for responding.
[ November 24, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[R K Singh]

yet gives projects to programmers who don't even understand the basics of the machine they are working on.
Very much possible that a fresh graduate is put on a project and he might ask such very basic questions.
there's not even anyone in the shop whom this programmer can ask;
Dont know what to say. :-|
I personally prefer to find answer on web rather than asking anyone else.

[Joe Pluta]

Very much possible that a fresh graduate is put on a project and he might ask such very basic questions.
Then the company is misrepresenting its capabilities, and is highly unethical, which is really my point. Thanks for making it!
Joe

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Then the company is misrepresenting its capabilities, and is highly unethical, which is really my point. Thanks for making it!
Joe

But you dont know under whom he is working and what is the final code.
Thanks for ignoring the above fact.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
And evidently, there's not even anyone in the shop whom this programmer can ask; he has to ask on a mailing list. That speaks very poorly for the level of expertise at Wipro.

I would say this kind of judgement is unfair. Would it then be in your opinion, that forums are exclusively meant for the use of newbies and not for those who are said to hold a certain degree of professional experience?
I have used this very forum to clarify questions on newly emerging concepts such as Struts and application server specific problems. This does not mean I am lesser qualified. It just means I am stuck at a particular point and need some help to proceed.
I maynot have someone to turn to for help because I work alone on most assignments. So forums, friends and newsgroups are the choices for me. Asking for help is not equal to less expertise.. the specific help being sought may indicate that, though.
(I don't work for Wipro, nor am I defending Wipro.. but I am challenging the assumption made by Joe)
[ November 24, 2003: Message edited by: Paul McKenna ]

[Joe Pluta]

This is a consulting company, one that makes its money by hiring out expertise. Would you hire a company whose consultants feel the need to ask newbie questions on the web? That's the issue here.
You can come up with scenarios to justify this situation, but you can be sure that Wipro didn't tell the prospect that they would be handing their project to someone who doesn't even know the machine, and that the consultant would be asking how to implement the project on a mailing list.
Anyway, everybody is free to make up their own minds. That's why I wrote the article.
Joe

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Would you hire a company whose consultants feel the need to ask newbie questions on the web? That's the issue here.

Agreed, I wouldnt like to hire a company with unqualified consultants. But who makes the judgement regarding qualifications here.. and secondly, would it matter as long as the job got done? Finally, if such people didnt ask questions how do you expect them to learn.. how would knowledge spread? Are you then stating that such expertise should never be shared? Javaranch would not exist in that case..

You can come up with scenarios to justify this situation, but you can be sure that Wipro didn't tell the prospect that they would be handing their project to someone who doesn't even know the machine, and that the consultant would be asking how to implement the project on a mailing list.
Anyway, everybody is free to make up their own minds. That's why I wrote the article.

A small request, lets leave Wipro's name out of our discussions. Not that I have a soft spot for this company but I dont want our discussion to seem like we are bashing one company. Lets instead, debate the underlying concept.
At some point of time, everyone gets stuck. They need help. They turn to the best tool available, newgroups and forums. Are you telling me you never used one in your professional career? I do not know anyone today who does not use these on a daily basis. YES! I mean even the non-consulting programmers I know use these tools. But this does not in anyway, degrade their quality or professionalism to me. I judge those two after they deliver the product to me.
Joe, also perhaps you are not aware of how some of these consulting companies work. You may have worked with one or two but in general let me give you an idea of how they work. They hire some of the top guns in the industry to work for them on their projects. They then bundle along a bunch of newbies to gain the knowledge from these top guns. Its called "Live training". The only such company I worked for used to use the ratio of 6:1 i.e. 6 experienced programmers for 1 trainee. As a trainee myself, I used to feel ashamed to ask the experienced programmers for help and thus utilize discussion forums for help.. this does not mean the project hung on my shoulders. To the contrary I was assigned menial work for 6months to 1 year until I was judged to have enough experience to handle difficult tasks on my own. [I can guarantee you that atleast 2 out of the top 5 outsourcing firms follow the same methodology]
I will also admit that not all software companies work this way and not all people do this. But to make a blatant generalization as you have.. is unfair.
[ November 24, 2003: Message edited by: Paul McKenna ]

[Jim Yingst]

And evidently, there's not even anyone in the shop whom this programmer can ask; he has to ask on a mailing list.
This could also indicate that the programmer is ashamed to have his work colleagues discover his lack of expertise. Which might indicate a flaw in quality control in the company's hiring, but doesn't necessarily reflect on the company as a whole. Wonder if the programmer in question used their real name when making the query...
[ November 24, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Joe Pluta]

Paul, I'm just going to drop the conversation. I think I've made my point clearly, and it's up to the readers to make their own decisions. You don't like my conclusions, that's cool. That's the nice thing about opinions... everybody's got one!

Joe

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Paul, I'm just going to drop the conversation. I think I've made my point clearly, and it's up to the readers to make their own decisions. You don't like my conclusions, that's cool. That's the nice thing about opinions... everybody's got one!

The nice thing about discussion forums is that everyone gets to defend their opinions. Sadly, you wish not to.. very well then!

[Joe Pluta]

This could also indicate that the programmer is ashamed to have his work colleagues discover his lack of expertise. Which might indicate a flaw in quality control in the company's hiring, but doesn't necessarily reflect on the company as a whole. Wonder if the programmer in question used their real name when making the query...
Jim, did you read the article? While I stripped off the name, it was actually included, as well as the fact that the guy was from Wipro (the E-Biz EAI Practice). If he was ashamed, why did he do that? Really, Occam's Razor pretty clearly indicates that this guy was from Wipro, was working on a billable iSeries project, and didn't have a clue how to start.
Anyway, like I told Paul, I've made my point, and really I don't feel up to defending my conclusions against every possible explanation. Maybe a competitor wrote the email just to discredit Wipro! Maybe 1000 monkeys accidentally typed it and hit send! Maybe it was cosmic rays!
Draw your own conclusions. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying my explanation is as likely as any other, and isn't that enough to make you think?
And I am outta here...
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

The nice thing about discussion forums is that everyone gets to defend their opinions. Sadly, you wish not to.. very well then!
I already did! Defending my opinion does NOT mean answering every possible argument you come up with, Paul. It simply means stating my case, which I did.
Seeya!
Joe

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
This could also indicate that the programmer is ashamed to have his work colleagues discover his lack of expertise. Which might indicate a flaw in quality control in the company's hiring, but doesn't necessarily reflect on the company as a whole. Wonder if the programmer in question used their real name when making the query...

I asked a few questions when I was a newbie on this very forum. Yes, I was shy to ask the experienced team members for help.. but it did not mean I wasnt capable of handling myself once I got my footing. What is the purpose of discussion forums if not for helping others and sharing knowledge. Yea! here is a really nice way to kill the outsourcing industry.. stop sharing your expertise. This way newbie consultants on discussion forums will be unable to deliver the product and therefore clients will revert back to better firms. But then, I ask you.. how is a newbie ever going to gain any knowledge? This is not some process oriented industry like car manufacturing / semiconductor component manufacturing, where there is a defined process for making vehicles and you work / innovate within those boundaries. And that knowledge for making a vehicle is given to you in college.
In the field of software engineering / programming each problem is unique and can be solved in thousands of ways. The programmer who does the maximum research and arrives at the best solution is the best one. And how can he do this if not for discussion forums?

[Jim Yingst]

[Joe]: Jim, did you read the article?
Yes; I was suggesting that it might not be the real name. But you're right that the other info probably would not have been included in this case.
Paul: Good points. Didn't mean to suggest that people asking questions on lists are (or should be) ashamed to do so. Just offering one possible interpretation; it certainly doesn't apply to everyone.
[ November 24, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Levent Gurses]

Joe,
Congratulations for bringing us an insightful article on a sensitive subject. I specially liked the way you take an open stand and express your ideas in a frank and non-provocative manner. I wish other people get inspired by this article and follow a similar approach.
As a foreign worker on a H1-B status, I could not agree more with you that the H1-B program was designed as a quick patch for a rather large problem. At the heart of this program lied the immeadiate need for trained IT personnel. Times have changed and the program certainly needs a fundamental revision. Especially, since the IT job marked had plunged, there is really little left to the domestic IT workforce, than lobbying the Congress for anti-outsourcing and anti-H-1B legislations. That's understandable. This is not to say that the domestic IT industry backs this type of legislations, though. It's only the couple of IT labor organizations, that make all the noise in Washington, DC. The industry, mainly represented by large corporation such as IBM, Microsoft, Dell, Hp, (http://www.h1bsponsors.com/Top100h1b.html) seems not to care that much. They even look scared, for a protectionist move from the administration may close their "new" window of opportunity. But they also know that this is unlikely to happen. They realize that the steel industry got what they needed - they got their high tarrifs on foreign steel imports. The textile industry is also happy - they are now protection from China. But, in the case of the IT industry, what they want is the total opposite. They do not want to be protected, contrary, they want to be left alone, so they can exapand as far as they can. And they should. If they do not get the relatively cheaper labor from India today, who guarrantees that French, German, Chinese and other competitors will not close that market tomorrow?
In a way, the the IT industry does not want to close a valuable valve of talent hidden in the un-explored fields of Asia, and East Europe.

Cheap labor is like anything else that's cheap: You get what you pay for. But the companies using these services don't see it...yet.

My assumption is that you are not referring to the H-1B visa workers, because as we all know they are far from cheap. In fact they are not even inexpensive.
Numerous reports from the Bureau of Labor statistics, Information Technology Association of America and other independent research organizations indicate that highly educated foreign workers earn more that their American counterparts. For instance a 1995(recent data shows similar paterns) survey by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington D.C, found that median wages for foreign born math/Computer scientists and skilled labor were higher than for native American counterparts. Because nearly 40% of the foreign born computer professionals hold advanced degrees, compared to 16% of the native American IT workers, the share of the foreign born with high-earnings-more than $75,000 per year- was more than double that of
natives.
Ref: (http://www.epf.org/research/newsletters/1998/eb980917.asp)
Sample wage comparison(again, recent data shows similar patterns) :

Once again I would like to reiterate my heartly admiration for your work, and I would like to see more people discussing this issue.
[ November 24, 2003: Message edited by: Levent Gurses ]

[Paul McKenna]

Here is another thought.. would a newbie purchasing a Joe Pluta book, "Eclipse Step by Step" be a warning sign for a client? So what's the remedy.. newbies stop buying books?
Joe, I realize the above argument might be misconstrued as a personal attack but my intention is not that. I want to merely point out the flaw in your argument regarding people asking questions on discussion forums.
Here is another thought, if no one answered the newbie's question would that mean the project would fail? Wouldn't company XYZ try and hire you, the genius behind Eclipse to help them complete the project.. so your problem is not the newbie but the discussion forum. Because that is sucking the expertise you have and distributing it to others. But then consider, that without the discussion forum no one would even know you exist.(ok maybe this is an exaggeration but you get the point)

[Joe Pluta]

Levent: Thanks for your kind words. You're right, some H-1Bs make a ton of money, but many are working for less than the current prevailing wage as well. And L-1s are worse.
Paul: I was trying to get out of this for the holidays, but you keep posting with what is a very reasonable point, so I'm going to make one last statement. Feel free to respond, but hopefully we can then agree to at least have a temporary truce for the holiday.
I'm NOT saying that it's bad for newbies to be on mailing lists or discussion forums. I'm saying it's bad for consulting companies to solicit jobs with the statement that they have expertise in a given area, and then hand the job off to a newbie who then has to ask for help from the Internet. As I stated clearly in a previous post:
"you can be sure that Wipro didn't tell the prospect that they would be handing their project to someone who doesn't even know the machine, and that the consultant would be asking how to implement the project on a mailing list"
That's all I am saying. I'm pretty sure any manager of IT would agree with me. I know how consulting companies work. I was the manager of architecture at a $500 million software development firm, and I dealt with my share of consultants. I in fact got a firm fired for a transgression less egregious than the situation I outlined above.
So, anyway I have to get on with my holiday planning. I really don't want to argue anymore, at least not until I get back from Thanksgiving, okay? Or maybe you even understand my point now and we can let it rest.
In either case, enjoy your holiday!
Joe

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
I'm saying it's bad for consulting companies to solicit jobs with the statement that they have expertise in a given area, and then hand the job off to a newbie who then has to ask for help from the Internet.

Companies when market themselves at that time they have experts but what you fail to see is that expert needs to prepare another expert, and for that he needs a newbie.
And you close your mouth and eyes, when I ask about the final product.
They wont get repeat business if they wont do quality work.
And as they do get repeat business your whole funda of "coding by un-experts" goes in vain.
AW as I said earlier, no one can show what one does not want to see.

[Terimaki Tojay]

I think Joe Pluta's inference from a posting of a wipro worker working on a (possibly) US project is totally absurd.
Here is my reasoning: Most important thing is that the US company has hired an outside company to do their job. It is the up to the outside company how they do it. The acting force is simple yet extremly powerful. If the company does the project well, it will survive otherwise it will not exist. So it is immaterial who (a fresher or somebody like Joe Pluta) is doing the work. US company has not hired a "person" or a "resource", it has given out a job to be done to another company. So it cannot dictate Wipro whom to put on the project. (Although there *are* some deals in client interviews people before they are put on their project.)
I am on H1B in US and before coming here, I worked in India. There, I worked on many US projects. Here is what happens (my experience): There are experienced people who have the responsibility to deliver the project. Under them, there are some less experienced people and tons (ok, not 100 but about 3 to 10, depending on project) of freshers. I started as one of them. They are right from college and don't know anything. I didn't either. And they do lots of stupid things. Just like I did. But that does not mean the project suffers. The experienced people have the responsibility.

Freshers are given lot of small tasks and they put lots of effort to learn everything. Their a%$# is on fire, if you know what I mean. And whatever they deliver (which is very less really) is actually a bonus for the project manager. It is just a way the company trains its people. Within an year or two (after posting such questions ) they become kick ass programmers (or get kicked out).
This is necessary because that's how the work force will increase. Where will you get experienced people from if nobody is letting a fresher have experience???
BTW, "cheap" is relative. You can outsource to an "expensive" firm too But an expensive outsourcing deal in India is still cheap from US standards.
H1B's are a totally different issue and let me make another post for it

[Terimaki Tojay]

Regarding H1B as cheap labor.
I am on H1B and I make $100K+ as a consultant. And I work with Java. At this rate, any company is always looking for a replacement. Still I was never on bench. Over this whole year, we hired 5 more consultants. My manager is openly critizied for having so many Indians and so he desparately wanted to hire Americans (whites, really **). However, he could find only one who was good enough. No, I was not on the interview panel.
** The reason I said that is because there are many Indians here who are citizens or have green cards. Still the mangaer gets the heat every now and then because he has too few *americans*. Talk about racism :roll:

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Teri To:
Regarding H1B as cheap labor.
I am on H1B and I make $100K+ as a consultant. And I work with Java. At this rate, any company is always looking for a replacement. Still I was never on bench. Over this whole year, we hired 5 more consultants. My manager is openly critizied for having so many Indians and so he desparately wanted to hire Americans (whites, really **). However, he could find only one who was good enough. No, I was not on the interview panel.
** The reason I said that is because there are many Indians here who are citizens or have green cards. Still the mangaer gets the heat every now and then because he has too few *americans*. Talk about racism :roll:

This is baloney! I am an Indian and I have seen several Americans who are well qualified for the job get passed over simply because they are not Indian. Talk about racism.. yeah! lets talk about the racism practised by Indians in TCS / Infosys / Wipro. Lets make a comparative study of their workforce with American companies like Siebel / IBM / Sun. You'll notice that the former have lopsided workforce statistics compared to their American counterparts.
Please educate yourself before you make rash comments like these. They hurt the entire Indian community on this board.

[JiaPei Jen]

I am an American. I am going to skip the discussion on the "Visas and Outsourcing".
I DO NOT think my English is better. I apologize if I offend some discussant's English. For humanitarian reason, could we use the term "lower wage labor" instead of "cheap labor"? In my view, a person cannot be cheaper or more expensive than others although global corporatism wants to turn all of us into commodities.
[ November 24, 2003: Message edited by: JiaPei Jen ]