Searching for another job while employed ( and lying )

[Mike Curwen]

Lying, truth and trust seem to be popular topics, so I thought I'd bring this one up.

If you are unhappy in your job, and are seeking other employment...

when you get an interview, do you lie and say "I have a doctor's appointment"?
if a manager suspects, and they ask outright if you're looking, are you
1) morally obligated to tell the truth?
2) career-wise and financially obligated to think of 1) as a ridiculous question, and lie?

What about the fact that employers will NOT hesitate to lay you off when it's to their advantage? If you do not deserve advance notice of termination, why do employers deserve the advance notice of your leaving?

If your company likes "team players" and values "loyalty".. is it by definition being "disloyal" to look for other work?
What if they haven't EARNED your loyalty? By not giving your loyalty for a song and a promise, is that 'disloyal', or simply 'neutral'?

Have I asked enough questions?

[Matt Cao]

Originally posted by Mike Curwen:
Lying, truth and trust seem to be popular topics, so I thought I'd bring this one up.

If you are unhappy in your job, and are seeking other employment...

when you get an interview, do you lie and say "I have a doctor's appointment"?

No, are you that insane? If the deadline is so near, all it takes a phone call to HR and track you down. Say "My love ones has emergency situation"

if a manager suspects, and they ask outright if you're looking, are you
1) morally obligated to tell the truth?
2) career-wise and financially obligated to think of 1) as a ridiculous question, and lie?

How would they know, if you are not slacking in performance and not suddenly dress up so nice because all the women at work are rather die than date you.

What about the fact that employers will NOT hesitate to lay you off when it's to their advantage? If you do not deserve advance notice of termination, why do employers deserve the advance notice of your leaving?

Some must not have insightful mind or antisocial. I usually find out my time is up a year to six months in advance.

If your company likes "team players" and values "loyalty".. is it by definition being "disloyal" to look for other work?

No, it is not disloyal to look for another work because the current company do not have any other position that you like. Everyone know we must take care our own careers.

What if they haven't EARNED your loyalty? By not giving your loyalty for a song and a promise, is that 'disloyal', or simply 'neutral'?

Have I asked enough questions?

Usually company promise to you something in writing, they have every intension to follow.
Communication goes both ways. Whatever you do for the company, you require to write down. In return, you force the company follow the same rule.
Regards,
MCao

[Mike Curwen]

No, are you that insane? If the deadline is so near, all it takes a phone call to HR and track you down. Say "My love ones has emergency situation"
Well I'm not sure what my sanity has to do with anything... If I'm **that** important to the company that they would be hunting me down at my doctor's office, then they'd have given my a cell phone or pager. I've also never worked for a place where HR knew my doctor's office. It's incredibly common (at least in Canada) to claim to be at the doctor's office, or take a sick day, or even the dentist. People generally don't invade your personal space by asking "how did things go at the doctor's?", whereas if it's a family emergency, or other.. they are more likely to ask, out of genuine concern.. and then you have to compound one lie with another.

How would they know, if you are not slacking in performance and not suddenly dress up so nice because all the women at work are rather die than date you.
It's quite easy. If you have an interview on Wednesday, then on Monday and Tuesday, you were really nice pants and a shirt with no tie. In your car, you change your shoes and socks, and put on a tie, and remember to change back, if you're coming back to the office that day.

Also, as much as we'd all like to think otherwise, there are a few managers that didn't come down with the last rain. They'll perceive something, because for sure, maybe your morale has slipped a bit.. and you've had a dentist appointment, and taken your kids to the doctor, and then a bank appointment. Things will just seem a bit 'off', and they might just put 2 and 2 together.

I usually find out my time is up a year to six months in advance I'd call bullsh*t, but I don't want to call anyone a liar. Any company that can determine that they won't be able to employ you a year from now.. should get into horse races and stock markets. Unless we're talking about a contract that will not be extended, in which case, of course, you know exactly when your last day will be.

[Tim Baker]

well it takes a lot of judgement and a bit of luck to determine if you can tell your current employer. you should be able to tell them you are looking for other work without a problem, but if things are sour i wouldnt risk it.
i think as long as you prearrange it, and it comes out of your 'holiday' entitlement it's perfectly ok to lie about the reason you want the day off, we are all entitled to our privacy. you could be doing any number of things that you don't want to tell your manager or whatever, so i don't see a problem with that.

[Matt Cao]

Hi Mike,
I gave you my personal experience, it maybe not what you experiencing in your career life. Did you ever have to take a lesser job in your life after you have appropriate credential? Did you ever have to switch career in your life? Did you ever switching field of disciplines in your career life? If you did then you obviously know it's hard 500X harder, then some people preach. If you survive, like I did and some of us that I recognize from the site, then you will appreciate the art of getting your antenna up way up before crap falling down upon you from the top.
I envy your career life is so smooth that you do not have to create informers for you from all levels in your organization.
Regards,
MCao

[Mark Herschberg]

As I have said before, lying is wrong and I discourage you from doing it.
My father is a doctor. When he was looking to leave his first job, he spoke to his boss one day and said, "I want to let you know that I'm looking for a new job." His boss replied, "You can start looking today" and fired him on the spot.
Let's consider the implications. The fact is, people will leave. By having my father let him know, it allows him to better plan the transition. My father would have undoubtedly been willing to help find a replacement and also open to negotiating when he leaves, based on when they have someone new coming in. My father talking to his boss did exactly one thing: it gave the boss more information. Management is all about using information to make decisions. The more and better information you have, the better you can make decisions.
Instead, he fired my father. That sent a message to all the other employees, who undoubtedly learned what happened, "if you're going to leave, don't even think about telling me, just show up one day with a letter of resignation can catch me off-guard." It also suggested that the manager was defensive and may not respond well to other criticism about the jobs under him.
A good manager wants information. I would love to have an employee say, "I'm going to leave in 6 months." I would never let him giving me that information negatively effect his employement for the next 6 months. Dpeending on the reason why, some might try to fix the problem and get you to stay. If you work for a good manager this shouldn't be a problem. If you don't work for good managers, make sure your next jobs is one with a better manager.
Now assuming that you don't have a good manager, just say it's a "personal day" or to catch up on "errands or other committments." Those are at least not outright lies.
--Mark
P.S. Many companies which hire people on a project basis may know months in advance who will be let go after a project, and if they treat their employees well, they tell them ahead of time and even help them find new jobs, either within the company or outside of it.

[John Fontana]

There are employers who deserve this honesty, and would not abuse it. Others are greedy and cannot be trusted.
I have worked for one company where I got along with them so well, but no longer enjoyed the job. They understood and even helped provide referrals and flexible schedule to accomodate my job search. Another employer fired me as soon as I mentioned that I was looking for another job.
It's usually pretty easy to tell which type of employer you have.

[Billy Tsai]

another senior developer is unhappy with his current job in my company right now and my manager and see that from his face in fact they r discussing their problems in the manager's office right now

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Mike Curwen:
when you get an interview, do you lie and say "I have a doctor's appointment"?

No, I just take a day off or arrange the interview to be after office hours and maybe leave a bit early.

if a manager suspects, and they ask outright if you're looking, are you
1) morally obligated to tell the truth?
2) career-wise and financially obligated to think of 1) as a ridiculous question, and lie?

if they suspect you're looking they probably also know you're not happy.
Tell them both and why and maybe they can do something about your unhappiness.
If you're unhappy in the company and they don't want to do something about it, would you really care about your career prospects within that company???

If your company likes "team players" and values "loyalty".. is it by definition being "disloyal" to look for other work?
What if they haven't EARNED your loyalty? By not giving your loyalty for a song and a promise, is that 'disloyal', or simply 'neutral'?

Loyalty has to go both ways, always.
If they care about you they'll do what they can to remove the reasons for you looking elsewhere and try to make you stay.
If they don't even try that there's no reason to stay anyway because they obviously don't care one way or another and you could be on your way out during the next purge anyway.
One thing though: tell them you're not happy before you start to look elsewhere and give them a chance to work on the situation. Don't let the first thing they notice about your unhappiness be a resignation letter...

[Kevin Thompson]

Mike,
Employers do not deserve honesty. That is not how the world works.
As for "white lies" anything involving a child can't be touched for moral reasons. For example try this out:
"I will be 4 hours late because I have to take my son/daugher/nephew to a physical therapy appointment".
Kevin

[Al Newman]

Kev,
Like anyone else, some managers deserve honesty, some don't. Assuming his actions are consistent with his writings, Mark H. deserves honesty. Some managers don't but I try to make do with omission rather than positive dishonesty. It's amazing how much you can accomplish simply by not making excuses.
[ December 05, 2003: Message edited by: Alfred Neumann ]

[SJ Adnams]

"I will be 4 hours late because I have to take my son/daugher/nephew to a physical therapy appointment".
haha, then you turn up to work in a suit & tie!

[Kevin Thompson]

Simon,
If someone is that stupid to show up in a suit & tie - they deserve to be fired.
Of course - you would leave your interview clothes in your car - and change back to "regular" work clothes before returning to work.
The whole issue of having to ask permission to leave for a short while - is a reminder of what work really is.
A PRISON OF MEASURED TIME.
Kevin

[Steven Broadbent]

you book a day from your vacation time and it's got sod all to do with your boss what you are doing...you're staying in bed( alone or not) or you're drinking yourself stupid...it's your holiday time.
BTW 'team player' , 'commitment' ='unaid overtime, but don't ask us for anything'

[merlin bar]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

A good manager wants information. I would love to have an employee say, "I'm going to leave in 6 months." I would never let him giving me that information negatively effect his employement for the next 6 months. Dpeending on the reason why, some might try to fix the problem and get you to stay. If you work for a good manager this shouldn't be a problem. If you don't work for good managers, make sure your next jobs is one with a better manager.

Can I work for you ?