Parasites...

[Terimaki Tojay]

I am posting this topic to create awareness among folks from western countries who think that India is taking away their jobs or cheap Indians are parasitically sucking up "western wealth".
The fact is that for more than two centuries the west has sucked up the wealth - natural, human, and economic wealth from all the rest of the world. Besides that, they destroyed the social fabric in the colonies by adopting "divide and rule" policy.
Natural: They looted precious stones, metal from the native countries. Extracted ores and shipped it off to their countries. Killed the natives and occupied lands.
Human: Enslaved populations. Condition of Africans is well known but many people do not know this but the british also forcibly took huge number of Indians to South American countries such has british guyana to work in sugercane fields. That's the reason many of these countries have about 50% Indian population.
Economic: The colonies were FORCED not to produce any finished goods. For example, the british did not allow the Indians to even make salt from sea water. They did not allow any type of cloth to be made. They took raw cotton to feed their textile industries (which was a major cause for the start of imerialism) and sold the cloth to Indians.
Many people here will spring up and say that British did many good things in India too such as tought them English. So for your kind information, the british were NOT interested in teaching Indians anything. They wanted people to do their jobs and so english had to be tought. In 1835, Thomas Macaulay articulated the goals of British colonial imperialism most succinctly: "We must do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, words and intellect."

This is the most shamefull thing that you have done and so while you blame Indians for taking your jobs, just think about it a little and then cry.
This is not a hate post or anything like that. What has been done is done. Can't do anything about it now. But many people in the job posting section and others are branding India and Indian wrong and this is post is just to show them the mirror.
Thank you for your time.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Two centuries ago, Indians should have been more developed intellectually, economically, and industrially. Today India is exporting that failure beyond her borders.
When will India reduce her incredible population growth? As this globe continues to shrink, and the Indian population continues to grow, these Indian failures are beginning to be devestating about the globe.
India must stop the exportation of her finest minds. India must work at fighting poverty, illiteracy and pollution on the Indian subcontinent.
Blaming colonialism is a cop out. India's problems are home grown.
[ December 16, 2003: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ]

[Jason Menard]

Just a warning in advance.... This thread appears to have the strong potential of going in a "wrong" direction. In the spirit of pre-emptive action, I would like to direct anyone planning on participating in this thread to read About Meaningless Drivel and Fallacies before posting a message here. Thanks!

[Steven Broadbent]

on a global scale of having things to be ashamed of, Britain ( or England you seem to be implying) comes very low down the list.

By the way many of the original slave traders where from the middle east I believe.

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
Two centuries ago, Indians should have been more developed intellectually, economically, and industrially. Today India is exporting that failure beyond her borders.
When will India reduce her incredible population growth? As this globe continues to shrink, and the Indian population continues to grow, these Indian failures are beginning to be devestating about the globe.
India must stop the exportation of her finest minds. India must work at fighting poverty, illiteracy and pollution on the Indian subcontinent.
Blaming colonialism is a cop out. India's problems are home grown.

Your are correct. I do believe in exactly what you just said that India must work at fighting poverty, illiteracy and pollution on the Indian subcontinent. And it really is.
However, what you've said has nothing to do with the point that I was trying to make.
In case you did not get it, let me put it in on sentence, "People living in glass houses should not throw stones at others".
So stop blaming Indians for your job losses. Your problem is home grown. It is called Capitalism. You are a free citizen of a free country. Try making laws such that companies cannot ship the jobs overseas. Guess what, you cannot
Thank you.

[Paul Stevens]

Originally posted by Teri To:


Your problem is home grown. It is called Capitalism.

So what is the alternative?

Originally posted by Teri To:

. Try making laws such that companies cannot ship the jobs overseas. Guess what, you cannot
Thank you.

It most certainly could be made. It would be a bad idea but what is to stop it?

[Rufus BugleWeed]

You have put me in the wrong camp. I have never been posted against allowing Indians, or any other nation, from competing in the information technology industry. In the short term I suspect India will do well. In time, the same bureaucracies and inefficiencies that plague the many aspects of life in India will hamstring the Indian software industry.
May the best competitors, enjoy the fruits of their labor.

[Paul McKenna]

You know what, I've had enough..
I seriously want to ask how much the Citizens of America are really interested in keeping their jobs? I am not a citizen of America, not yet, but I earnestly make an effort to keep Americans employed by spending my money on American made products. How? Let me "try" to give you an idea:
1. Dont buy anything that costs more than $50 from Walmart/K-mart.. there are very few products in Walmart / K-mart that are american made. There are some items that are assembled in America and I would considering purchasing those..
2. Reduce your consumption level. Do you really need two TV's? Do you really need two cars? Buy one American made TV / car .. even if it expensive when compared to the Japanese TV / car. But you are definetly serving your country's needs. (OK! I confess I have a second hand Japanese car right now but when I buy a new one it will definetly be an American one or American assembled one. I do have an American TV .. RCA)
3. Buy more of your products from mom and pop stores.. helps small business survive in the face of huge corporations. After small businesses are the life line of the American economy
My 2 cents..

[Steven Broadbent]

So Teri what will you feel when the jobs go from India to somewhere cheaper?
The boot will be on the other foot then.
"What goes around comes around" as our american colleagues say.

[Michael Ernest]

I would like to remind participants that Meaningless Drivel is not the default forum for sharp criticisms. It is neither, in my view, the forum to use:
a) for reaching the largest possible audience;
b) for reaching more people than one expects to find in the correct forum
c) for straddling multiple subjects;
d) for people who wish to avoid naming violations but nonetheless wish to post on a categorized topic.
I would also like to echo Jason's comments: the participants appear to be walking into a space that has potential for going astray. Personally, I can't imagine how a thread that starts off with "see how you like a taste of your own medicine" will make its way to "be nice," but we'll see.
Assuming the point at hand is in fact a discussion on Jobs, I'll move it there.

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
So Teri what will you feel when the jobs go from India to somewhere cheaper?
The boot will be on the other foot then.
"What goes around comes around" as our american colleagues say.

As our politicians say, "we will cross the bridge when we come to it."
But seriously, yes, jobs will move from India to some other country too (not very soon though). And I will feel just as bad as you are feeling now. And I won't be able to do anything just like you won't be able to do anything right now. However, I will not blame that third country for sure because I believe that the whole planet is doomed. The human race is doomed. It is only a matter of time.

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
I would like to remind participants that Meaningless Drivel is not the default forum for sharp criticisms. It is neither, in my view, the forum to use:
a) for reaching the largest possible audience;
b) for reaching more people than one expects to find in the correct forum
c) for straddling multiple subjects;
d) for people who wish to avoid naming violations but nonetheless wish to post on a categorized topic.
I would also like to echo Jason's comments: the participants appear to be walking into a space that has potential for going astray. Personally, I can't imagine how a thread that starts off with "see how you like a taste of your own medicine" will make its way to "be nice," but we'll see.
Assuming the point at hand is in fact a discussion on Jobs, I'll move it there.

But it is not meant to be about jobs. I posted it in the Meanlingless drivel because I wanted to critisize the general western attitude towards the third world countries. Yes, the word 'parasite' used by a poster in job discussion prompted me to post it but it has nothing to do with just jobs.
In general, I am saying that the western countries are really the parasites and not the poor third world countries. What has it got to do with jobs???

[paul wheaton]

I would like to endorse the concerns that this thread might go "the wrong way".
I would like to point out that on each post is a tiny little pencil. Clicking on that pencil gives you the ability to edit what you have already posted.
I would also like to point out Fallacy number 3 in the fallacty document. I would like to suggest that when making statements, it would be nice if you could qualify them as your opinion. Making statements that are clearly an opinion sound as if they are a proven fact makes you look like a doofus and it becomes hard to beleive anything you say.
I think that sensitive issues can be discussed in a civil manner. My mouse is hovering over the "delete thread" icon ....

[Michael Ernest]

The fact is that for more than two centuries the west has sucked up the wealth - natural, human, and economic wealth from all the rest of the world. Besides that, they destroyed the social fabric in the colonies by adopting "divide and rule" policy.

I think it's a mistake to hide what amounts to pure accusation in the guise of "creating awareness." One, I don't think the phrase fools anyone for very long. Two, once it's clear you intend to paint "the west" as criminal and India as its hapless victims, the generality of that position dilutes what chance you have of persuading others that there is a bigger context to consider.

Natural: They looted precious stones, metal from the native countries...Killed the natives and occupied lands.
Human: Enslaved populations...
Economic: The colonies were FORCED not to produce any finished goods....

None of this is news, and it is certainly not particular to treatment of India under the rule of British Imperialism. The practice of drawing raw materials from their colonies and selling back finished products at a greater margin was of course designed precisely with the idea that colonies are money-making ventures.

Thomas Macaulay articulated the goals of British colonial imperialism most succinctly: "We must do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, words and intellect."

Of course. The aim of an imperialist economy is to replace a colonial culture with an imperial culture to the degree that it benefits the Crown. This again is not news. The British were never shy to use the term 'expolitation' in this regard, but it wasn't the truly nasty word that it is today. Times have changed; imperialism as a mode is distasteful to much of world opinion.

This is the most shamefull thing that you have done and so while you blame Indians for taking your jobs, just think about it a little and then cry.

Just one thing: "We" are not Great Britain. Nor are we politically a direct descendant of British Imperialism. This is the US; we're a democracy. We were once a colony too. We rejected that rule, as did India, in its own time and in its own way and beset with its own particular difficulties.

This is not a hate post or anything like that. What has been done is done. Can't do anything about it now. But many people in the job posting section and others are branding India and Indian wrong and this is post is just to show them the mirror.

The mirror seems misdirected. "We" are not your former masters. If you wish to suggest how the US is complicit in the subjugation and exploitation of India, go to it.
[ December 16, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Mark Herschberg]

I'm going to jump in, in the hope of steering the direction of the debate...

Originally posted by Teri To:
I am posting this topic to create awareness among folks from western countries who think that India is taking away their jobs or cheap Indians are parasitically sucking up "western wealth".
historical information

Teri, I don't think anyone is disputing the facts. However, for the most part I think it's moot. Suppose for example, that the German's were facing genocide. Could we reasonably say "well, the German's were guilty of that themselves, so let's just watch them get a taste of their own medicine?" (Note that this comment is about the argument and its evidence, and not about the point the argument is trying to make.) The point is, either India's economy is or isn't a certain way, but the fact that others have been the same way doesn't change the current situation. It may effect the level of sympathy people feel, but not the type of economy it is. (Again, this comment is about the argument and its evidence, and not about the point the argument is trying to make.)
As for it being "parasitic," it's not clear. Although the term itself was used, it was not defined and no evidence was provided. It's hard to refute an "argument" lacking evidence--mostly because without evidence, there is no argument, only opinion.
--Mark

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by Teri To:

But it is not meant to be about jobs. I posted it in the Meanlingless drivel because I wanted to critisize the general western attitude towards the third world countries. Yes, the word 'parasite' used by a poster in job discussion prompted me to post it but it has nothing to do with just jobs.
In general, I am saying that the western countries are really the parasites and not the poor third world countries. What has it got to do with jobs???

In your initiating post, Teri, you specifically mention jobs in the opening and closing paragraphs. The responses so far seem to me to have keyed in on that.

[Nathan Thurm]

As an American who is very concerned about outsourcing, even as we hear news this week of layoffs at my company due to outsourcing, I'm the last person who wants to see any outsourcing to India occur. However, most of the discussion on this thread is bothering me including the following:

TT:Natural: They looted precious stones, metal from the native countries...Killed the natives and occupied lands.
Human: Enslaved populations...
Economic: The colonies were FORCED not to produce any finished goods....

ME:None of this is news, and it is certainly not particular to treatment of India under the rule of British Imperialism. The practice of drawing raw materials from their colonies and selling back finished products at a greater margin was of course designed precisely with the idea that colonies are money-making ventures.

TT:Thomas Macaulay articulated the goals of British colonial imperialism most succinctly: "We must do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern, a class of persons Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, words and intellect."

ME: Of course. The aim of an imperialist economy is to replace a colonial culture with an imperial culture to the degree that it benefits the Crown. This again is not news.

A lot of this was news to me!... so where does this leave us? Is her argument valid or not then? Just because something isn't "news to you" doesn't prevent it from being news to someone else. And even if it's not news, does it mean it's justified or right? Just because you acknowledge or can explain something doesn't mean you've dismissed their point. I don't think this is an argument (I have never seen it used in a debate before), and in discussion that is trying to create a common understanding about something, I think saying something "isn't news" is actually presumptous. I don't think anyone can say what is news for people in the forum, especially as far as Indian history goes.
TT:This is the most shamefull thing that you have done and so while you blame Indians for taking your jobs, just think about it a little and then cry.

ME:Just one thing: We're not Great Britain. Nor are we politically a direct descendant of British Imperialism. This is the US; we're a democracy. We were once a colony too. We rejected that rule, as did India, in its own time and in its own way and beset with its own particular difficulties.

I look at this in the larger sense, I know the Americans weren't the one's colonizing and subjugating India, but I know there was a lot of exploitation of the east in the past, the Opium wars/Boxer rebellion in China come to mind which the US was part of. So, I look at this in the general sense that the west has prospered greatly, and to a certain extent in the past it's come at the expense of the east, so it's not a surprise that these eastern countries that fell behind us and are now with lesser costs of livings are now in a position to take our jobs. So, no I'm not going to blame the Indian/Chinese/whoever for taking our jobs if/when the time comes, especially when its our government who has the greatest control over this (in my opinion).

In general, I am saying that the western countries are really the parasites and not the poor third world countries. What has it got to do with jobs???

I echo the concerns indicated by the moderators. The above quote shows why.. And I would also like to state that I categorically disagree with Teri in this regard.

Last night, the use of "parasite" type economic model was largely defended on the site in another forum, but now when it's thrown back in our face there's concern. Which is it? I know there are different people involved with today's debate, but seriously I think there should have been concern when this comment (especially as unsubstantiated as it was given) was made.

I guess the final thing that bothers me is that it seems that this person has put a pretty good amount of effort into this post which I believe is basically a response to, what I perceived to be, an inflammatory comment made last night in the jobs discussion. It appears she has taken the advice of the moderators of that discussion to try to facilitate discussion in a pretty friendly way and the response to her arguments has been basically this is not news, don't blame us we're not Great Britain, etc.
Personally, while I believe the suggestion to start this thread was well-meant, I don't think anyone should really have to start an argument based on defending whether their country's economic model is parasitic or not. Think about it. For example, I've read so many 'Bush is Hitler' type posts, or 'American's are fascists' type posts on other web sites. Do you really think it's worth anyone's time to start a "Bush is not Hitler" argument for people who believe he is? There's no benefit. There's no way you're going to convince those people that, if this is your opinion as it is mine, that Bush is a pretty good president, no way.
My take, is that I appreciate the intent of the person posting, I actually learned something, but do believe that this thread should be pulled or a replaced by a thread that is couched in more respectful language so that this can be discussed in a less inflammatory manner.

[Joe Pluta]

So, I look at this in the general sense that the west has prospered greatly, and to a certain extent in the past it's come at the expense of the east,
This comment would be okay if we were continuing to prosper "at the expense of the east", but that hasn't happened for a long time. In fact, India has received tens of billions of dollars of aid from Western countries (nearly $3B in 1998 alone). This doesn't include Japanese loans of over a trillion yen.
It's my personal opinion that once one country accepts money from another, they lose the right to complain about past bad acts. The accepting country is in effect saying that the money is okay, and thus condoning the actions of the lending government, or at least recognizing that those prior acts are no longer occuring (otherwise, they would actually be accepting "blood money" and would be complicit in the bad acts!).
So, my feeling is that, any country that continues to accept billions of dollars of foreign aid has no cause to point fingers at decades or even centuries old practices.
Otherwise, we can go back to the dawn of time and dredge up each other's dirty laundry, and it won't do any good. I think we need to set some reasonable statutes of limitations on this sort of argument, and to me, accepting billions of dollars of aid pretty much is a tacit statement that you're okay with the lending government's policies.
Joe

[Marcus Raphael]

(Great Brittain) in the Past, now referred to as UK.
The future is Britain main industry exceeds 80% in services sector.
Today developing counrtires in time, china, india will swallow that income in time.
Us Brits need to be cleaverer and exploit the developing countries to remain one of the best!
Remember, we are developed, not developing so use your wits!

[Jeroen Wenting]

Without the colonial powers most countries in Asia and especially Africa would still be living in the stone age today.
India is something of an exception, but it too has benefitted greatly from the British rule by introduction of things like modern medicine, education, etc.
Without that British rule you'd also not now be a democracy, but most likely still ruled by a large collection of absolute monarchs bleeding the population dry of their products and young men to fuel their eternal wars.
Also, those people now taking away jobs from Europeans and Americans would never have gotten their education without the colonial past which established a system in which an education was available to the masses of Indian population (rather than just to the children of the aristocrats insofar as that education was deemed necessary for their role in government).
Massive grants and low interest (or interestfree) loans from Europe and America provided the means by which you could set up that educational system (and the infrastructure which enables the graduates from that system to take away our jobs), yet I hear no gratitude for that.
Without that colonial past our economies would be worse off and not capable of giving you that money, and yours too would be worse off as all those resources would never have been developed or would have disappeared into eternal warfare between the different warlords ruling your country.
That is the flipside of the coin...

[Bhau Mhatre]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
Without that colonial past our economies would be worse off and not capable of giving you that money, and yours too would be worse off

Aah! Never thought about that. The colonial past was needed to loot the colonies in order to loan and grant them at a later point of time. That was so thoughtful and kind of them.

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
as all those resources would never have been developed or would have disappeared into eternal warfare between the different warlords ruling your country.
That is the flipside of the coin...

I bet they publish different history books for different schools across the world.

[Axel Janssen]

I think India has full right to export what it wants. If I am in the same market, its my problem. This "fair trade"-talking is sign of complete lack of basic knowledge in economics. Its simply against all free-market principles.
But have 1 question: Was India or Mexico or Peru kind of paradise before the start of colonisation?
Especially the more advanced societies which got under colonial power were often caracterized by lots of oppression.
Without allies inside the country who saw Englishmen as the smaller of 2 evils those few Brits would never had managed to get into command over a country such big as India.
Axel

[Bhau Mhatre]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:

Just a small note before I start - this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread 'parasite'. It is in reply to Axel's questions.
Was India kind of paradise before the start of colonisation?
Colonisation by the European powers of Indian sub-continent (not India as a country) started as early as the seventeenth centuary. At that time the individual states within the Indian continent were as good (or as bad) as the then individual or autonomous states of Prusia, Austria, Brandenburg, Saxony, Bavaria... in the now called Germany.
The interstate issues within Indian sub-continent were similar to those found between any of those German states. There were friends, foes, and opportunistics. The political and social system was different then, than is it now ofcourse, but it surely was nothing similar to Liberia, Sierra Leone, Zimbabwe, Burkina Faso, Kandahar, Yamoussoukro, or places like that. So I am not sure if you would use the term 'warlords' to describe them as someone mentioned above.
Also, the basic needs of life (food, clothing, shelter, etc.) according to standards of the time were plenty. There was no need to get a loan or grants from World bank, or for that matter there wasen't any need to colonize other continents to feed themselves.
Especially the more advanced societies which got under colonial power were often caracterized by lots of oppression.
YES. The worsts of them being the various tax acts, business sanctions, import-export controls, etc. Further, the locals did not have any kind of voice or representation in the colonial administration. Kind of looting a whole reagion with their natural resources and hampering their own economic system for 300 years and then sighing - ahh these third world poor countries, when will they grow- sigh!
Without allies inside the country who saw Englishmen as the smaller of 2 evils those few Brits would never had managed to get into command over a country such big as India.
It was not a single country with a single administration. So the idea of comparing the lesser of the two evils is moot. There were states - and so there was internal competiton. Also, when the Europeans came, we were already struggling with the constant inflow of Moghuls from north and central asia and Pursia (Iranians) from the west. That aided the British in their divide and rule policy.

[Tony Collins]

I don't understand the criticism of this thread. Yes, it is aggressive but so are anti-Indian threads. Why can a westerner act aggressively while an Indian is expected to remain humble? I'm feeling the pinch in the West but I can't begrudge India it's new found Industry.
Remember the British Empire chopped off the thumbs of Loom operators so they couldn't produce fabric, there is bound to be some resentment of the West.
Tony

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
But have 1 question: Was India or Mexico or Peru kind of paradise before the start of colonisation?

Although I have solid answer for your question but that's not the point. The point is that western countries are parasites whether the host countries were/are already sick or not is a different issue.

[Axel Janssen]

Terimaki and Mumbai Cha Beau.
Colonialism is completly amoralic in my opinion.
To say, my culture is greater than yours, so I administer your country has no ethical basis.
Lots of europeans between 1450 and 1918/60 had a different standpoint. But that really changed.
History is different from morale, ethics. History just happens.
I've read a book from african author who has lived in a region in Africa with nearly 0 colonial influence. The book is about their customs and manners. They had very sophisticated out. I strongly doubt if there is a link between technological/economical development and grade of civilization.
Opinion in western world changed very much in its attitude towards people from other continents, with different religions and customs. For example film about indian independence with Attenborough as Gandhi was very popular movie.
Questions:
- Should I pay a reparation fee to people in Namibia because it was german colony and my forefathers waged a dirty war against a tribe there (forgot name).
- Should Mongolia pay reparation fee to poland, france, austria, because they destroyed those countries around 800 or so.
- Should afgans pay reparation fee to northern indian states because of Mogul occupation.
Axel
[ December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Just as much as you like to make statements without backing them up with evidence people in other countries are also entitled to make statements without evidence.

For which of my statements do you need evidence? I am accusing the western countries of at least 3 things: Natural, Economic, and Human explotation. All are proven facts. You are free not to believe. Or just go to google.com.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Western Countries??? Be specific.. not all western nations engaged in colonialism. And not all colonial powers engaged in brutal tactics as described in your earlier post. USA never engaged in colonialism so your theory does not apply in this context at all..

OK, by western countries I mean the european countries who did all of the above. Yes, Japan was also one of them and No, US was not one of them. However, US did exploit Human wealth of Africa in the form of slavery.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

I again remind you to register according to the Javaranch naming rules.

Done. Due to the non-PC nature of my posts, I prefer not to use my real name. I liked this Koreo-Japano-Indo name. If that is a problem, please let me know. I'll stop posting.

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
Terimaki and Mumbai Cha Beau.
Colonialism is completly amoralic in my opinion.
To say, my culture is greater than yours, so I administer your country has no ethical basis.
Lots of europeans between 1450 and 1918/60 had a different standpoint. But that really changed.

Only after grave explotation of the colonies.

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:

History is different from morale, ethics. History just happens.

So do the consequences.

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:

Questions:
- Should I pay a reparation fee to people in Namibia because it was german colony and my forefathers waged a dirty war against a tribe there (forgot name).
- Should mogules pay reparation fee to poland, france, austria, because they destroyed those countries around 800 or so.
- Should afgans pay reparation fee to northern indian states because of Mogul occupation.
Axel

Why not? If not then I can loot a bank, stash the cash some place only my offspring knows, and then die a fugitive. Can my offspring use the loot happily with out consequences?

[HS Thomas]

AJ :Without allies inside the country who saw Englishmen as the smaller of 2 evils those few Brits would never had managed to get into command over a country such big as India.
McB :It was not a single country with a single administration. So the idea of comparing the lesser of the two evils is moot. There were states - and so there was internal competiton. Also, when the Europeans came, we were already struggling with the constant inflow of Moghuls from north and central asia and Pursia (Iranians) from the west. That aided the British in their divide and rule policy.
Did these invaders all come in the hope of trading with the Indians ?
[ December 18, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
OK, by western countries I mean the european countries who did all of the above. Yes, Japan was also one of them and No, US was not one of them. However, US did exploit Human wealth of Africa in the form of slavery.

Too much generalization is being made by you. You must be aware, I hope, that many European countries did not engage in colonialism. So here is the moot point.. since US did not colonize India, you as an Indian have no right to complain. Africans have reasons to complain and there is more than a fair share of their bickering to hear about. Americans on the other hand have every right to complain about the Indian "exploitation" of their economic loopholes. I say this as an Indian myself..
Secondly, you seem to exhibit the classic victim mentality. "Someone did something bad to my great grandfather, so I need to draw blood to compensate".

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Too much generalization is being made by you. You must be aware, I hope, that many European countries did not engage in colonialism.

For example?
BTW, most of them did. In India itself, there were three of them.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

So here is the moot point.. since US did not colonize India, you as an Indian have no right to complain. Africans have reasons to complain and there is more than a fair share of their bickering to hear about.

This is not about India vs US. This is about western countries cribbing about jos losses to third world. India and US are just a case in point. I myself have no ill will towards US or even UK. I already said that what has happened has happened. Can't do much about it.

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Americans on the other hand have every right to complain about the Indian "exploitation" of their economic loopholes. I say this as an Indian myself..

Wow...would you mind backing that statement up?
Would you also care to explain, how come it is ok if US uses WTO loopholes to block Indian cotton or steal products?

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Secondly, you seem to exhibit the classic victim mentality. "Someone did something bad to my great grandfather, so I need to draw blood to compensate".

Well, if your grandfather had indeed killed my grandfather, my father would have gone to the police and they would have executed your grandfather. Right?
What if there were no police? Who does the justice then? This is exactly the argument many Americans are giving to justify their Iraq operation. (Althought I do support it but that's a diff thread altogether)

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

So do the consequences.

How do you plan to enforce those?

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

Why not? If not then I can loot a bank, stash the cash some place only my offspring knows, and then die a fugitive. Can my offspring use the loot happily with out consequences?

I am not using loot. Its 20:47 GMT and I am working.
I know very well from Chile that in the developing countries there often is kind of a somewhat distorted view about life in western countries. Its not that easy as you might think.
Lots of the very rich families (like Rockefeller, Krupp, Carnegie) made their money with really nasty deals. Nobody called them to pay back the money "looted" (as you might call it).
Germany was a latecomer in industrial revolution. In great part, because the country was divided into many small states. This was consequence out of mediaval or post-mediaval power politics of France, England and Habsburgish Austria. Germans in 19th century didn't ask for compensation, but competed on world market. Worked not that bad.
If we are going to pay compensation for 400 years India will have population of 8 billions people not used to work on their own. What would happen then?
And when compensation time is over they will all die?
Might be better strategy to go on with that 7% GDP growth in the years to come.
Axel

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:

I am not using loot. Its 20:47 GMT and I am working.
I know very well from Chile that in the developing countries there often is kind of a somewhat distorted view about life in western countries. Its not that easy as you might think.
Lots of the very rich families (like Rockefeller, Krupp, Carnegie) made their money with really nasty deals. Nobody called them to pay back the money "looted" (as you might call it).
Germany was a latecomer in industrial revolution. In great part, because the country was divided into many small states. This was consequence out of mediaval or post-mediaval power politics of France, England and Habsburgish Austria. Germans in 19th century didn't ask for compensation, but competed on world market. Worked not that bad.
If we are going to pay compensation for 400 years India will have population of 8 billions people not used to work on their own. What would happen then?
And when compensation time is over they will all die?
Might be better strategy to go on with that 7% GDP growth in the years to come.
Axel

Frankly, I do not know the answers to your questions that can sastify all the parties involved. However, that is an implementation issue. Just because I or you don't know how to mete the justice out does not mean that justice should not be meted out.
As to whether you are using the looting or not depends on how you look at it. The anormous development that your country (by your I don't just mean Germany but all the imperialists) is not just because of your efforts. A large part of that is because of the wealth that was looted or stonlen by your people.
It pains to me when I see Christi's or Sothbys "auctioning" off Indian or African jewels, diamonds, gold ornaments, historic artifacture for millions of pounds as if it were there own. It is indeed a loot that you (again, by you I don't mean you per se) are enjoying.
And on top of it, you have the guts to call us parasites :roll:
[ December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Terimaki Tojay ]

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

As to whether you are using the looting or not depends on how you look at it. The anormous development that your country (by your I don't just mean Germany but all the imperialists) is not just because of your efforts. A large part of that is because of the wealth that was looted or stonlen by your people.

Development is a very complex process and has a lot to do with own effort. For example Spain with all its central and south american and Phillipines became poor country in 17th century.
USA made huge developments long before they became imperialistic in late 19th century.
Same Germany after 1945 and we had no colonies since 1918.

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

It pains to me when I see Christi's or Sothbys "auctioning" off Indian or African jewels, diamonds, gold ornaments, historic artifacture for millions of pounds as if it were there own.

Just today someone told me that he met an indian in a train who desperatedly tried to sell those artefacts with handy.

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:

And on top of it, you have the guts to call us parasites :roll:

I don't agree with that pov, because it is only very small part from our gdp which goes to less developed countries.

[JiaPei Jen]

originally posted by Terimaki Tojay
how come it is ok if US uses WTO loopholes to block Indian cotton or steal products?

Well, I think that you had a typo in your sentence. I think that you mean Indian cotton or "steel" products (not "steal" products).
I do not know whether or not the US has exploited loopholes to block Indian cotton or steel products. Has India filed any litigation against the US? Has WTO come up with a conclusion that the US violated the rules? I am not challenging your allegation. I am simply asking two questions because I do not know if the US is proven guilty.

originally posted by Terimaki Tojay
What if there were no police? Who does the justice then?

I myself have been asking the same questions. And I have talked to priests (I am a Roman Catholic) many times regarding the issue. Should we take the justice into our own hands? Do we have perfect information and are we in a postion to exercise justice? What is justice?
I once searched the meaning of justice because I saw the word "justice" everywhere in the Holy Bible. I looked up the Vatican II -- the answer given by Pope John Paul II is that God's justice is MERCY.
You do not have to agree with Pope John Paul II because I believe your religious denomination is a different one. I simply provide you a piece of information.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Terimaki Tojay:
What if there were no police? Who does the justice then?

Ever heard of the expression "Tough luck!!"?? or the expression "Get on with it!!".. thats is exactly my attitude. I dont believe in living in the past. You do say "What has happened has happened.. can't do anything about it" but you dont seem to implement that mentality. You seem (** icky stuff removed - PW)
When westerners are trying to fight exploitation of their own loop holes we (outsiders) have no right to say they are right or wrong. We should just shut up and do our work.. in the end if they end up being totally exploited then "tough luck" for them as well. But if they successfully close this loophole we cannot complain.. "tough luck" for us. I'm not going to support anyone who puts up any sort of victim mentality..
[ December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Wheaton ]

[Tony Collins]

I supose the British Empire left India with the education system that allowed them to produce top engineers and mathematicians. Maybe India would be in the same state as Africa without the British. Maybe ?
Tony

[Bhau Mhatre]

Originally posted by Tony Collins:
I supose the British Empire left India with the education system that allowed them to produce top engineers and mathematicians. Maybe India would be in the same state as Africa without the British. Maybe ?

That was a good one, Tony Had a hearty laugh. Keep' em coming!
[ December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Mumbai cha bhau ]

[Bhau Mhatre]

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:

Opinion in western world changed very much in its attitude towards people from other continents, with different religions and customs.
You mean changed for good with respect or ....?
Questions:
- Should I pay a reparation fee to people in Namibia because it was german colony and my forefathers waged a dirty war against a tribe there (forgot name).
...
No. Atleast I, myself, am not advocating that idea. Nor am I expecting anything back from the Queen
[ December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Mumbai cha bhau ]

[Terimaki Tojay]

Originally posted by Paul McKenna:

Ever heard of the expression "Tough luck!!"?? or the expression "Get on with it!!".. thats is exactly my attitude. I dont believe in living in the past. You do say "What has happened has happened.. can't do anything about it" but you dont seem to implement that mentality. You seem (** icky quoted stuff removed - PW)
When westerners are trying to fight exploitation of their own loop holes we (outsiders) have no right to say they are right or wrong. We should just shut up and do our work.. in the end if they end up being totally exploited then "tough luck" for them as well. But if they successfully close this loophole we cannot complain.. "tough luck" for us. I'm not going to support anyone who puts up any sort of victim mentality..

(** icky stuff removed - PW) Which loop holes are you talking about??? (** ditto) You are very quick in asking others to back their statements but do not seem to care about your own statements :roll:
[ December 18, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Wheaton ]