Keith Rosenfield<br />SCJP<br />SCWCD<br />SCBCD
Keith Rosenfield<br />SCJP<br />SCWCD<br />SCBCD
SCJP<br/>
"I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music."<br />--John Adams
At this point, I want to focus on getting employed and receiving a paycheck.
1) Tell EVERYONE YOU KNOW what you do for a living (or what you want to be doing).
2) Learn something besides Java.
3) Take some college computer classes and do well in them.
4) Help people who need technical assistance.
IMO, get more certificates. But the mindset in this business is that experience is everything.
I hope you're not 30+ or you could be fighting a tough career for age discrimination.
Keith Rosenfield<br />SCJP<br />SCWCD<br />SCBCD
Rufus, what do you both currently do for a living?
But at your age, I would be scare too. Are you going to visualize yourself retired with Java Developer? At that age, I sit behind executives and directors give them a different insight as the project architect demonstrating.
Yes Tony, I suspect the same. Industry wants younger people. Older people are seen as outdated. If you are in then age does not matter but if you are out then it does matter.
you could take a temping job (data entry or something) then socialise with the programmers/managers.
But employers want to take 21 year olds on in these positions and mould them.
I have a big lance tied to the top of my car. I drive around the country looking for windmills.
Keith Rosenfield<br />SCJP<br />SCWCD<br />SCBCD
I have a big lance tied to the top of my car. I drive around the country looking for windmills.
Originally posted by Keith Rosenfield:
I'm looking for postive contributions not negativity and jokes.
Please don't waste my time with statements like ...
I'm looking for postive contributions not negativity and jokes.
Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
I just love it when I get the timing wrong and the mill blade knocks me off my horse and about kills me.
5th Dan wannabe
Also if you use the same tone in your interview as in your posts you won't get anywhere, particully when your looking for junior roles. Maybe that's why older engineers aren't as highly valued, they talk back.
This isn't negativity it's the reality of the situation.
I have to say I really admire your spirit. I've had chances to do things I love for my life, but didn't have enough courage to go with them. So I'm blowing the horn for you, way to go.
PS, do you have to be an employee? Why not an employer?
Keith Rosenfield<br />SCJP<br />SCWCD<br />SCBCD
Originally posted by Keith Rosenfield:
I'm looking for postive contributions not negativity and jokes.
Keith Rosenfield<br />SCJP<br />SCWCD<br />SCBCD
Originally posted by Keith Rosenfield:
As this thread has proceeded, it has occured to me that if someone is currently employed as a Java Developer they wouldn't have the time or the need to visit this forum.
Keith Rosenfield<br />SCJP<br />SCWCD<br />SCBCD
What I mean by negativity is when someone tells me what my obstacles are without any advice on how to overcome them. I'm not saying that you shouldn't say something like "your age might be a factor", but please follow it by suggesting a way to overcome this obstacle. It doesn't do me any good to hear what the hurdles are, if it isn't accompanied by advice on how to get over them. If there are obstacles that are insurmountable in my path then maybe I need to find a new path. I haven't gotten to that point as of yet.
The jist of many of the posts to this point have been "you're too old and inexperienced. You will never make it in this field so give it up". I am too determined to pay any mind to this kind of message. When I do succeed, it will be that much sweeter. I will know that I followed my dreams, and I never payed heed to those who say I should "give it up".
It seem that my spirit is my most valuable asset at this point. I never expected success to come easy, so challenges as difficult as they have been, have never detered me from my goals. My spirit can not be broken.
Originally posted by Keith Rosenfield:
I consider myself to be on the other end of the spectrum as well. I have invested most of my energy into my technical skills, while my job searching and networking skills have suffered.
Originally posted by Keith Rosenfield:
BTW..What is your current job? I am looking for input specifically from current Java Developers but any input is appreciated.
Originally posted by Keith Rosenfield:
Hi Mark:
it has occured to me that if someone is currently employed as a Java Developer they wouldn't have the time or the need to visit this forum.
[ January 06, 2004: Message edited by: Keith Rosenfield ]
[ January 06, 2004: Message edited by: Keith Rosenfield ]
The future is here. It's just not evenly distributed yet. - William Gibson
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Originally posted by Keith Rosenfield:
Jon and Rufus, what do you both currently do for a living?
SCJP<br/>
"I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music."<br />--John Adams
I have invested most of my energy into my technical skills, while my job searching and networking skills have suffered.
Here again, that's not putting you at the top of the spectrum, but right in the middle. Experts without networking skills are not in a strong position. That's part of who you are.
Originally posted by SJ Ponsardin:
From Keith:
I have no intention of working as a data entry person. I have invested too much time, money, effort, blood, sweat, and tears into preparing myself for a programming career. I plan on being the programmer that data entry people socialize with, not vice versa.
From SJ:
I suggested that because I know someone who was having trouble finding work. They took a temp role which was basically data entry work, meeting a few people (including myself) networking, they now have a permanent role as a developer.
SCJP<br/>
"I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music."<br />--John Adams
SCJP<br/>
"I study politics and war that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children a right to study painting poetry and music."<br />--John Adams
Originally posted by Bela Bardak:
This is why I suggest that Keith reads Guerilla Tactics. He is on the opposite end of the job market from an MIT grad like you, Mark.
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I haven't rewad that book per se, but I agree with Keith, and most engineers for that matter, need to read books like this.
For the record, MIT does a terrible job teaching its students networking skills (as compared with peer schools like the ivy's). The program with which I'm involved is designed to reverse this problem.
Jackson tells you to write 'No' all across and down a notebook sheet of paper with a single 'Yes' in the lower right corner, then post it on your refrigerator door. Every time you get a 'No' of any kind cross one off. You're getting closer to 'Yes'.
I only know two things about you, but neither are on the high end of the spectrum (maybe I'm just missing information):
In today's market that's a very poor position to be in. You have no experience, and no college CS degree, unlike a majority of the field.
Quick question. Do you have a Bachelor's degree. If so, in what? It makes a difference in the suggestions I would provide. Also, if you have one, did you go to a school in the same area as you live now?
It may seem demeaning and counterproductive to take a data entry position, but this is actually a good way to "get your foot in the door" as you titled this thread.
I hope you're taking the advice somewhat, but not tally personally. By this I mean, we aren't trying to be rude or put you down. At the same time, I at least (I can't speak for the others) believe a good dousing with cold water is what's necessary to get you to open your eyes a bit more. I don't want to discourage your enthusiasm, which is an assest, but I also think you're more likely to score a run if you just try to get a base first, rather than trying to hit a home run.
Keith Rosenfield<br />SCJP<br />SCWCD<br />SCBCD
It may seem demeaning and counterproductive to take a data entry position, but this is actually a good way to "get your foot in the door" as you titled this thread.
This would be my last resort. After all the money, time, effort, blood, sweat and tears that I have invested into a programming career, it would be a HUGE let down to take a job that I could have right out of high school. I know that it could lead to better things but there is no guarantee. I commend you for making it work for you.
Originally posted by Keith Rosenfield:
What two things do you "know" about me and how do you know what end of the spectrum I fall on.
Originally posted by Keith Rosenfield:
The spectrum I was referring to is the technical one. I have excelled in every programming course I have taken. My lowest score on an exam at Chubb was 93%, which was the first one. I answered only one question incorrectly in the last five exams, resulting in four 100%'s and one 98%.
Originally posted by Keith Rosenfield:
As far as experience, the reason I started this post is to discover ways to gain experience. This is the kind of "negativity" I'm talking about. You tell me what factors are working against me, which I am fully aware of, without suggesting ways to overcome them.
I didn't knwo you had a CS degree because you never said anything. I didn't ant to make assumptions, so I assumed the default.
I haven't rewad that book per se, but I agree with Keith, and most engineers for that matter, need to read books like this.
Again, this does not put you at the top of the spectrum. With all due respect, that's like saying you're the best batter in little league. You may be good against other little leaguers, but no major baseball team is going to sign you. You may be just as capable as the other guys, or even more so, but the people who have only these short training programs are put at the bottom of the list. You may be at the top of the bottom section of the list, but it's still on the low end of the list.
Keith, we can't always solve your problems. I'm trying to help you understand just where you stand, because I think you're not seeing it correctly (of course, this is just my opinion). I think that alone is valuable. I don't have any easy answers of, "do A, B, and C" and you'll get a job.
Keith Rosenfield<br />SCJP<br />SCWCD<br />SCBCD
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