What are these rare skills no US citizen has??

[Steven Broadbent]

A couple of questions:-
H1B is designed to bring in skills that can't be found in a US citizen I believe? ( please correct me if I am wrong).
Can someone give a documented case of the skills a non US citizen had to gain a position?
Has any US citizen sued because they were rejected for a job with crazy requirements, cos that job went to a H1B without all the requirements.
(I mean the US citizen "failed" some requirements for the job which were only there to provide an excuse to look abroad).
This is a serious question which I think needs asking.

[Dmitry Melnik]

http://uscis.gov/graphics/howdoi/h1b.htm
http://workforcesecurity.doleta.gov/foreign/h-1b.asp

[Steven Broadbent]

interesting post but I really want to see a case of H1B being applied - what are these skills that no one in the US can provide???

[Dmitry Melnik]

> I really want to see a case of H1B being applied -
> what are these skills that no one in the US can
> provide???
As you might have found out from those links,
one would be able to get an H-1b having none of "these
skills that no one in the US can provide", if labor
market conditions were good enough. The education/skill
requirements are not this restrictive.
But at present labor market condition IMHO it's close
to impossible for a foreigher IT pro/software eng to
get an H-1b, and start working in the US.
To all: If anybody you heard of got H-1b last year as
a "software-guy", I'd like to know what their their
skill set is too.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

I thought about filing a query under the freedom of information act with the department of justice to see how many times anybody had been prosecuted for violating the H1-B law. I found the ACLU's site has a whole bunch of stuff about how to write the query, but I never got around to it.
You can go to www.zazona.com and see they are still hiring H1-Bs. I worked at a company where they would hire H1-B onto their staff from the contracting if they liked them. The hiring companies competitive market wage was more then the H1-B's were getting from their contracting company. The company that was hiring people via the contracting company leaked the bill rate for the contractors.
The company was paying around $60 an hour for the H1-B contractor. The contractor was making $38,000 to $40,000 with minimal benefits.
I believe the law says H1-Bs are supposed to be paid minimum 40K. They are supposed to get the same office conditions as a direct employee too. Most of these contractors were squeezed in a cube with a desk just big enough for a computer. The direct employees had decent size cubes.
I'll bet the DOJ has never prosecuted anybody.

[Michael Target]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
You can go to www.zazona.com and see they are still hiring H1-Bs.

I'm not able to find any information on www.zazona.com regarding hiring H1-Bs in 2003.

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
I believe the law says H1-Bs are supposed to be paid minimum 40K.

You don't know the law.

[Dmitry Melnik]

Those links I have posted here: follow them and read carefully what Uncle Sam wrote, you'll love it. Just for fun, pretend that you are an employer and you need (for whatever reason) to hire a foreighner, and sponsor an H-1b. Try to follow (in your mind) the employer's instruction posted at BCIS's site, find all the data you need (for today's labor market, not 5-years ago) to complete the application, etc. It does not take much time, but you'll learn a lot Then come here, and we'll continue the discussion

[Ajeet Jose]

Q: What are these rare skills no US citizen has??
A: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/410311.cms

[Bhau Mhatre]

imho...
The actual cost of an H1B to the final client is not at all low compared to the locals. In fact, it is more many times and can be used by Americans to their advantage.
An H1B cannot work for a client in US as an independant consultant. S/he cannot work for a client on 1099 (if I am right, as opposed to W2). H1Bs must have to be employeed by some company who then sends them to the clients. This raises the rate per hour of H1B. An annual pay of say 50K, means $25/hr going to an H1B. The H1B holding company, who are americans offcourse, charges somewhere around 45-60 per hr and keep the difference. And there are some middle parties involved too who are called "prefered vendors" of the client, and they charge a whopping $75 to $100+ per hr (depending on the city). A rate of 75/hr means a salary of 150K per annum.
What I don't understand is why most big companies are ready to pay 75/hour for consultants from their preferred vendors and not directly hire locals at 65K per annum == 33/hr + employment overhead which still can be approx 50/hr. One reason(rumor?) I have heard is that some managers of those big clients get a personal 'cut' from their prefered vendors.
So who are the winners?
Those Americans who own the H1Bs holding company.
Those Americans who own the middle parties and just pass resumes from point A to point B.
Those Americans who are owners of the "preferred vendors" companies.
Those Americans who are managers who get a cut from the prefered vendors.
(Believe me, H1Bs do provide lots of opportunities to the above Americans to make more money).
Who are the losers?
Those Americans who remain unemployed.
Those H1Bs who get paid less despite the fact that the final client is spending more.
So, here are ways in which the American citizens can beat the system:
1) If they become employees of the final client
2) If they work as independent consultants to the final client.
3) If they work as independent consultants to the preferred vendor
4) If they work as employees of the preferred vendor
I' m sure Americans do try all the above. But #1 does not work, because the final client does not want the overhead incurred with employment. #2 does not work for similar reasons as #1.
But #3 and #4 will most probably work to the advantage of the Americans and can beat the rates of H1Bs who cannot work as independant consultants. So one of the ways to get a job is to first find out who the "preferred vendors" are of a given final client. Then approach them. Another thing they can do (well, theoritically) is report the mal-practices of getting the 'cut' by managers to higher authorities- that is if they can find out for sure with evidence.
What I mean by all the above is - the pay of an H1B is not same as the cost of using an H1B. Their pay as paid by their employers may be less, but their cost as seen by the final client is usually more. And the difference is enjoyed by those mentioned in the 'winners' list above.

[Mark Ju]

Wow, I like your reasoning After skimming months of debate on Javaranch about the outsourcing issue, this post is probably the best one I've seen so far...(well, assuming the numbers you give are accurate!)
[ January 07, 2004: Message edited by: Chris G Lee ]

[Otto Hammersmith]

Originally posted by Dmitry Melnik:

To all: If anybody you heard of got H-1b last year as
a "software-guy", I'd like to know what their their
skill set is too.

I know a Canadian guy who did. Java, serverside at a bank in the south east. He paid the fees out of his own pocket. I can't really say he had any unique skills. Oh and he was granted it in early, 2003, IIRC.
[ January 07, 2004: Message edited by: Otto Hammersmith ]
[ January 07, 2004: Message edited by: Otto Hammersmith ]

[Michael Target]

I would not worry about H-1B after immigration reform proposed by president Bush.

[Joe Pluta]

BM: Who are the losers?
Those Americans who remain unemployed.
Those H1Bs who get paid less despite the fact that the final client is spending more.
Excellent analysis, Bhau. Even though I'm a strong proponent of doing away with these visas (there are certainly enough Americans to fill the jobs now), I still think that the losers are ALSO the H1-B workers, who are simply trying to feed themselves and their families. It's the companies that abuse the visas that should find themselves in court.
Joe

[Dmitry Melnik]

> I know a Canadian guy who did.
If he was a Canadian citizen, he would not need any H-1b. There is TN visa for them, which is much better

[frank davis]

Originally posted by Ajeet Jose:
Q: What are these rare skills no US citizen has??
A: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/410311.cms

Is generic Cobol a rare skill?
Just over a year ago I overheard a non-citizen co-worker talking with her immigration lawyer. This co-worker only knew COBOL at an intermediate level and that was the full extent of their skills; they could barely spell Java or HTML or anything else. The gist of the conversation was that the lawyer said for them to get their former foreign employers to give statements that they had Java experience (complete lie) which they were happy to do. So, in the end they got them their immigration status extended by just knowing COBOL skills.
Lots of very experienced US citizen COBOL programmers unemployed now by the way (also Java)... But this is the price we pay for rare skills.
The system is very open to abuse, is being abused, and no one is being prosecuted.

[sunitha reghu]

hello,
Let us say the person extended the visa by saying lies or whatever. But who is keeping this person in job if she didnt prove the skills. Suppose you have a xyz and company and your employees didnt prove their skills or didnt do the coding will you keep them or will you fire them. ? Just a thought.

Originally posted by herb slocomb:


Is generic Cobol a rare skill?
Just over a year ago I overheard a non-citizen co-worker talking with her immigration lawyer. This co-worker only knew COBOL at an intermediate level and that was the full extent of their skills; they could barely spell Java or HTML or anything else. The gist of the conversation was that the lawyer said for them to get their former foreign employers to give statements that they had Java experience (complete lie) which they were happy to do. So, in the end they got them their immigration status extended by just knowing COBOL skills.
Lots of very experienced US citizen COBOL programmers unemployed now by the way (also Java)... But this is the price we pay for rare skills.
The system is very open to abuse, is being abused, and no one is being prosecuted.

[Tara Bhattacharjee]

True. But I also have seen the hours most of these H1B holders put in. They work very hard. In the US, producing the final result is what matters. So, they survive most of the times. But I also heard comments from my American coworkers that these people weren't the brightest.

[frank davis]

Originally posted by sunitha raghu:
hello,
Let us say the person extended the visa by saying lies or whatever. But who is keeping this person in job if she didnt prove the skills. Suppose you have a xyz and company and your employees didnt prove their skills or didnt do the coding will you keep them or will you fire them. ? Just a thought.

The company I was working for only really required COBOL, which this worker knew adequately for the basic purposes of their position. My point was that many unemployed American workers could have filled the same type positions, whether for COBOL or Java, at the same wages. Therefore the entire purpose of the H1-B program, to bring in foreign workers to fill jobs with "rare" skills that Americans don't have, is being abused. From what I hear, and from my knowledge of employers (and lawyers!), this type of situation is not uncommon and should not be unexpected. Neither have I ever heard of any prosecutions for such abuses.
I have nothing against the ex-coworker in question, we co-operated many times and I did not hesitate to teach them various skills and techniques. Nor do I have anything aginst the H1-B visa program in principle; but in practice, it I suspect (or was) widely abused.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

When I read the Times of India article I cam away with two points, that the H1-Bs were willing to work for less and that they were more flexible in willingness to relocate.
I was disappointed that the Times failed to mention the H1-Bs were also generally younger than the American workers they were displacing.

[Otto Hammersmith]

Originally posted by Dmitry Melnik:
> I know a Canadian guy who did.
If he was a Canadian citizen, he would not need any H-1b. There is TN visa for them, which is much better

*shrug* color me clueless, then.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Tara Bhattacharjee:
True. But I also have seen the hours most of these H1B holders put in. They work very hard.

And you think American citizens don't?

[Rufus BugleWeed]

But I also have seen the hours most of these H1B holders put in.

Why do they do it?
a) Do they think they are advancing technology?
b) Do they think they will be rewarded for their efforts?
c) Are they desperate to escape their homelands?
d) Do they think it is the right thing to do?
e) They are getting paid by the hour?
If you pick d please elaborate.

[Steven Broadbent]

Still not one case posted showing which skills could not be found in the US labour pool.
Maybe we should put up $100 for the first documented case?

[Joe Pluta]

This is similar to my request for news of major enterprise-level offshored projects brought in on time and under budget with satisfactory quality.
Given that flood of outsourcing, you'd expect there to be dozens, if not hundreds, of examples. Instead, the only thing we see are websites and Y2K conversion projects. Nothing along the lines of a typical ERP or banking application with a couple of thousand screens. Yet those are the projects currently being offshored.
Joe

[HS Thomas]

Businesses are re-writing business rules.....What is being off-shored are old business rules !
[ January 12, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Arjun Shastry]

Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
Still not one case posted showing which skills could not be found in the US labour pool.
Maybe we should put up $100 for the first documented case?

I think what companies are looking for are 'specific skills' for short term projects.Currently what many big American/Indian companies doing is sending people for short term assignments on H1/L1 visa.The requirements can be easily manipulated .for example: Programmer with 4+ years of experience in C++ who has also worked on Struts and has 2+ years experience in Weblogic.!!!This requirement makes sure that companies will reject even brightest C++ programmer ,Java programmer who haven't worked on Weblogic and hence they can choose their candidate of their choice.So there is a shortage of C++ programmer with Java/weblogic experience

[frank davis]

Originally posted by Capablanca Kepler:

I think what companies are looking for are 'specific skills' for short term projects.Currently what many big American/Indian companies doing is sending people for short term assignments on H1/L1 visa.The requirements can be easily manipulated .for example: Programmer with 4+ years of experience in C++ who has also worked on Struts and has 2+ years experience in Weblogic.!!!This requirement makes sure that companies will reject even brightest C++ programmer ,Java programmer who haven't worked on Weblogic and hence they can choose their candidate of their choice.So there is a shortage of C++ programmer with Java/weblogic experience

Exactly. The requirements lists are made to be realistically impossible
for the purpose of abuse. Besides the very improbable skill combinations, there is the sheer number of skills requested and the request for people to have years of experience in such things like J2EE and .Net that would have to date back to early beta releases (or before!). Now, I admit there will be a number of times when the requirements writer is simply clueless, but that cannot explain all cases.

[Steven Broadbent]

What next ? 5 years PL/1, 3 years LISP ,2 years visual foxpro
and 8 years Websphere, don't forget fluent in Hungarian and Ossetian.....

[Sadanand Murthy]

Originally posted by Steven Broadbent:
What next ? 5 years PL/1, 3 years LISP ,2 years visual foxpro
and 8 years Websphere, don't forget fluent in Hungarian and Ossetian.....

If they include Hungarian and Ossetian then very very few people will qualify. Now, instead, if they include fluency in Hindi or some other Indian language then a lot will qualify.

[Arjun Shastry]

Originally posted by Sadanand Murthy:

Now, instead, if they include fluency in Hindi or some other Indian language then a lot will qualify.

I still doubt.How many of us(Indians) are really fluent in writing/speaking any Indian language?I am yet to see somebody speaking 100% Hindi with no English in Mumbai.I have heard people speaking Hindi/Marathi/Gujarati/Kannada in train.Very few of them are really fluent(not necessary that they are in software ).