This is just the beginning

[Joe Pluta]

You knew this was coming, didn't you?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4710299/
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

And yet, some people don't get it:
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2004/tc20040414_3056_tc024.htm
Joe

[Thomas Paul]

That's the last Dell computer I buy.

[Jason Menard]

I'm going to move this to Jobs Discussion.

[Steven Broadbent]

will any of the idiots who wasted money outsourcing get the boot or not?

[Michael Ernest]

Anyone who has bought Dell computers and used their support in the last two years (i.e., me) calls this old, old news.
I don't get the whining. If Dell's fastest growing markets are indeed in China and Japan, it makes more sense move jobs closer to those markets. But even if that was only a marginal case, the realities of a commodity-driven market are clear: price wins.
I have four Dell servers in my office. I think I paid less that $2500 for all of them together. As a consumer, the model's working for me.

[Joe Pluta]

ME: Anyone who has bought Dell computers and used their support in the last two years (i.e., me) calls this old, old news.
It's brand new news that Dell, even after the disastrous attempt at outsourcing their call center to India, is now going to instead outsource their manufacturing. Given their abject failure at the former, I'm not going to be too keen to run my mission critical systems on the fruits of the latter.
I think the issue is that Dell has made billions of dollars in the US and yet isn't going to do much of anything for the American economy. This is simply another clear indication that "Free Trade" is not "Fair Trade".
We can make it fair, though. Since Dell wants to put 7/8 of its workforce outside of America, let's make damned sure that from now on, 7/8 of Dell's sales are from overseas as well. I have now put Dell on my "dispreferred vendor" list. This is not a boycott, or an attack on their services or quality, but simply a recognition of the fact that I do not consider Dell a good American corporate citizen, and thus, wherever possible, I will do business with another vendor whose practices I find better for American workers.
In all likelihood, I'll just do my business with my local custom-machine vendor. I might have to spend an extra $100, but I know the sale generates sales tax, the shop generates jobs in this country, the owners and the employees pay income tax, and I can actually meet the person who built my machine.
Joe
[ April 15, 2004: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]

[Joe Pluta]

ME: As a consumer, the model's working for me.
That's a simple model, without a lot of social overtones to be sure, and one that works quite nicely within the philosophy of multinational corporate greed.
Me, I spend a few more bucks and try to buy from vendors that better help America.
Joe
[ April 15, 2004: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]

[Michael Ernest]

Man that was just too easy.
Seems like the only people who like free-market economies are those who don't have to live in one.
[ April 15, 2004: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Michael Ernest]

JP: The only people who can call this particular article old news are people from the future, since this is a brand new announcement.
ME: It's been going on for some time. It's about to become more visible, so Dell has little choice but to introduce it. Read all the latest news, including the analysts who will tell you this is an attempt at timing what many outsourcing whiners observers would call bad news.
JP: I'm not going to be too keen to run my mission critical systems on the fruits of the latter.
ME: What do you run your 'mission critical' systems on now?
JP: Since you can travel through time, you might feel better about it, Michael, I don't know.
ME: I have always travelled forward in time, although at the same speed as everyone around me, so it doesn't seem very special. I did travel back in time once, to Ohio. That experience I can't recommend.
JP: I think the issue is that Dell has made billions of dollars in the US and yet isn't going to do much of anything for the American economy.
ME: I'd call that a whiny ridiculous assertion, but there's nothing to substantiate in the second half of it. As such it's just air.
JP: Wherever possible, I will do business with another vendor whose practices I find better for American workers.
ME: I do business with vendors that make it easy for me to contain costs. I employ 30 people, all of them American, and it'd be fewer people if I paid more for things like equipment.
Oh wait, that's right! Lower costs mean some companies can keep more people working! Dang, I should have said that earlier.
JP: In all likelihood, I'll just do my business with my local custom-machine vendor. I might have to spend an extra $100, but I know the sale generates sales tax, the shop generates jobs in this country, the owners and the employees pay income tax, and I can actually meet the person who built my machine.
ME: Your custom machine vendor, naturally, buys all of his parts from other American companies, pays more for the pleasure, and of course hopes to meet them all one day. It sounds all very sweet and naive.
[ April 15, 2004: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Mark Fletcher]

An article of a similar nature is over at The Inquirer, although it focuses more on the Outsourcing of tech support than other sectors
Linky

[Joe Pluta]

I run my mission critical system on an iSeries. The other semi-critical systems are run on custom-built PCs. Pretty American there. My iSeries was built here.
Dell is going to create 8000 jobs, only 1000 of which are in this country. That's what I meant by not helping the American economy.
I find Dell's operating policy to be bad for American workers. My viewpoint is neither sweet nor naive. It is simply a way of doing business that makes sense if I'm looking past my own ledger sheet and worrying more about the economic landscape my son will inherit. Personally, I don't want to see him flipping burgers for high-paid visa workers from Bangalore which is what the current trend which you so heartily embrace will bring.
Anyway, I'm pretty comfortable with my take on things. You say you would employ less people by buying American, whereas I say you'd be contributing to the whole country.
Joe
[ April 15, 2004: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]

[HS Thomas]

Dell credit their success to direct customer contact- so have 40,000+ employees in 34 countries.
Guess Dell found too many whiners in the US whining about their computers or their sales pitch and moved/created jobs off-shore:-

Dell users
American companies like Dell continue to grow in confidence and global reach.
[ April 15, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Warren Dew]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Seems like the only people who like free-market economies are those who don't have to live in one.

Er, I like it just fine.
It seems to me that the other reasons Joe mentioned - badly declining customer service and quality - are reason enough not to buy from Dell, especially for mission critical machines.
On the other hand, if all Dell's U.S. customers are as whiny, er, 'demanding' as the first three at HS' link, I can also see why Dell would prefer offshore customers that are more gullible, er, 'easier to satisfy'.

[Michael Ernest]

JP: I run my mission critical system on an iSeries. The other semi-critical systems are run on custom-built PCs. Pretty American there.My iSeries was built here.
ME: Not that I would buy mission-critical anything from Dell, anyway. They're cheap, very serviceable computers; that's what I use them for.
JP: At least my corporate website works .
ME: My business works. It's grown, even in a down economy. And no website to speak of. Imagine that.
JP: On to the meat of the issue: Dell is going to create 8000 jobs, only 1000 of which are in this country. That's what I meant by not helping the American economy, and it's hardly "air".
ME: This comment does have substance and I'll speak to it: creating jobs in other countries is not outsourcing. Exporting existing jobs to other countries is. Creating jobs where the customer is makes perfect sense to me. So does bringing the profits home to shareholders.
JP: I find Dell's operating policy to be bad for American workers, and I have every right to express my displeasure.
ME: For whatever it's worth for Dell to hear what sounds like a non-customer won't buy from them. Look, if I think someone's wrongheaded, I say so. Sheriff or otherwise, anyone who reasserts their rights to express as a response, in my view, creates an issue where there isn't one. No one has to assert their rights: it neither advances a discussion nor tells anyone something they don't already know. It's as red a herring and telling someone "Calm down!" no matter how they behave.
JP: Contrary to the unnecessarily snide remarks in your post, my viewpoint is neither sweet nor naive.
ME: The viewpoint I read is sweet and naive to me. I am speaking to the assertions made, which I find short-sighted and at the very beginning of what justifies a favorable view on protectionism and isolationism. The US makes soooo much f*ing money on opportunities abroad it's a real shame to hear anyone demand protection for "American" jobs. Especially for computers which have relatively few "American" parts in them to begin with.
JP: It is simply a way of doing business that makes sense if I'm looking past my own ledger sheet and worrying more about the economic landscape my son will inherit. Personally, I don't want to see him flipping burgers for high-paid visa workers from Bangalore which is what the current trend which you so heartily embrace will bring.
ME 1: It remains to be seen what happens next. There is plenty of literature out there that flatly states countries like India not only don't innovate, they don't have a culture that supports innovation and development of new technologies. Outside of wireless consumer products and a few other areas, that's where America has few rivals.
ME 2: My son and daughter will inherit a fine economic landscape. They won't do it by flipping burgers like I did, though, nor by shipping boxes of stuff to Hallmark stores like I did, nor run stationery supplies up and down San Francisco like I did, nor haul horse manure and wet sand all over northern Nevada like I did. Nor will they assemble cheap computers, send them to China, then handle tech support calls for them. That, to me, is good.
In 1978 I priced (and walked sadly away from) a Northstar system at $2,780. Later I walked away from an IMSAI, then a Heathkit. Not enough money for any of them. Today I can buy a computer with orders of magnitude more processing power, memory and storage capacity, assembled and loaded with an OS and applications, for less than $500. It's affordable enough I can give each child a computer, and they're already both quite literate. They're acquiring skills and experience that in 10 years will make burger-flipping and cheap PC-assembling the kinds of jobs they never have to consider.
Some of the monies they'll have for getting started is what I make by teaching those visa workers from Bangalore. I'd like it if some of them were highly-paid: they'd likely pay more for what I do. You'd have to meet one or two to learn they're not highly-paid. US companies can get highly-paid workers close to home; that's why they're looking elsewhere.
JP: Anyway, I'm pretty comfortable with my take on things. You say you would employ less people by buying American, whereas I say you'd be contributing to the whole country.
ME: I presume my point about the Americanness of the supply chain gets no rebuttal. Must suppliers to American vendors also maintain jobs in America? If not, then what's the real problem with Dell? Is protectionism ok for American jobs? Should US corporations be required to hire American labor first and foremost? Would we all be required to subsidize them even if the practice crippled their international business and forced them to raise prices more than a buck or two above the competition?
The US consumer public and corporate shareholders alike have consistently answered those questions with a resounding bite me.
JP: And if a few percentage points on your expenses maeks the difference, you might want to think about how you spend your money.
ME: Invest it, maybe, since I do end up retaining more than I would otherwise. Or donate to charities and contribute to other endeavors I like, such as JavaRanch.
JP: For example, you might want to review how much you're spending on web development.
ME: Next to nothing. Business couldn't be better. Ain't that a kick in the ass?
JP: You are of course allowed to do whatever you want, but don't call me a whiner just because I find your arguments more amusing than compelling.
ME: I called the comments "whining." Anyone may infer I called them a whiner because they agree with those comments, but it is not my problem.
[Edited to reflect Mark's wishes]
[ April 15, 2004: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by Warren Dew:

It seems to me that the other reasons Joe mentioned - badly declining customer service and quality - are reason enough not to buy from Dell, especially for mission critical machines.

Absolutely, for people who have actually experienced it. I've had nothing but competent support. The accent on one call was hard to interpet, but no more so than the handful of Chinese TA's I had to suffer through in school. Beyond that, no atrocities of my own to report. I find the belly-aching in the press over Dell's "atrocious service" grandly overstated.

On the other hand, if all Dell's U.S. customers are as whiny, er, 'demanding' as the first three at HS' link, I can also see why Dell would prefer offshore customers that are more gullible, er, 'easier to satisfy'.

All companies look for the customers who want what they have to offer, directly or indirectly.
[ April 15, 2004: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Joe Pluta]

Inkling Research has a website, and it doesn't work. That was my point.
"I couldn't read your mind from your previous comment, which is still air. This has substance and I'll speak to it: creating jobs in other countries is not outsourcing. Exporting existing jobs to other countries is."
The article was about Dell creating jobs in other countries. My comment was about Dell creating jobs in other countries.
I have bought Dells, and Dell has always at least been in the list of potential vendors. No more. They have lost me as a potential customer. Is it a big deal? No. But it's certainly not "a customer they don't have".
Joe
[ April 15, 2004: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]

[Warren Dew]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:

On the other hand, if all Dell's U.S. customers are as whiny, er, 'demanding' as the first three at HS' link, I can also see why Dell would prefer offshore customers that are more gullible, er, 'easier to satisfy'.

All companies look for the customers who want what they have to offer, directly or indirectly.

I'm glad we can agree on that!

[Michael Ernest]

JP: Inkling Research has a website, and it doesn't work. That was my point.
ME: It doesn't matter. That was mine. Bearing in mind this has nothing to do with this topic, much less 'mission-critical' systems, I don't see why it's relevant, except to engage in demeaning rhetoric.
JP: If you're unable to follow along with the article and link the concepts, then there's little wonder you don't understand the gist of the thread.
ME: People in glass houses...
JP: Everybody else seemed to - that is, the people who weren't more interested in calling me a whiner.
ME: There's nothing in my comments that calls any person here a whiner. I have spoken to the statements at hand. What I cannot control is anyone's feeling that offense is directed at them. I can offer everyone who doesn't like my stuff a simple solution: scroll past.
JP: There are far more civil phrases, but you avoid them, seeming instead to ENJOY belittling people.
ME: I use words to fit my thoughts as well as I can. I won't avoid them on anyone's feeling that they're personally directed. Moderators can disagree and edit my comments appropriately. 'Nuff said.
JP: I no longer will converse with you. It's not worth wading through the nastiness to get to any points you might make.
ME: Looking good for scrollbar makers.
JP: You are quick to hold forth with sarcasm, just not terribly good at drawing conclusions from the facts at hand.
ME: Plus my website doesn't work -- unless you have a password and know what to do. And yet all the facts were available on the screen...
[ Comments edited to reflect Mark's wishes. -- mfe ]
[ April 15, 2004: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Mark Herschberg]

The temperature in this forum seems to be rising and unfortunately it's not due to the heat front hitting the east coast this weekend.
Let's try to tone down the hostilities. Attack the argument, not the person. A general rule I like to follow is to avoid the words you/r. That's often a sign it's getting too personal.
--Mark

[Mapraputa Is]

The title of this thread now sounds threatening, doesn't it?

[Joe Pluta]

MH: Let's try to tone down the hostilities.
You're right, of course, Mark. I apologize.
Michael, I apologize to you, too. I don't know what it is about your posts that get me going. Probably the fact that your positions have merit, but something in the wording rankles me. It sounds like a personal problem that I need to address .
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

Okay, I've done my best to desnide my commentary, or delete any posts that were undesnideable .
Joe

[Joe Pluta]

Map: The title of this thread now sounds threatening, doesn't it?
As always, a cogent social observation, Map .
Joe

[Michael Ernest]

I only meant to crap on a point of view that I hate, not the people who hold by them. For me there's a big difference. My apologies to Joe et al for instances where I blurred the line and created a chilling effect for others.

[Jeroen Wenting]

What's the problem with Dell moving production to where the customers are?
When Japanese car manufacturers opened up plants in the US did you complain that your Lexus or Honda are not built in Japan?
After all, Japan is their home market...
Remember Dell is a global company with global commitments. I live in the Netherlands, if I order a Dell it takes several weeks to get here because it has to be shipped from the US to a central location in Europe, then shipped again to where I am.
Takes longer and is a lot more expensive than buying a computer from a shop that does their assembly over here.
THAT's the reason Dell is hiring so many people outside the US and shifting production elsewhere.
The US market for PCs and servers has been pretty stagnant, while elsewhere sales are up.
It's only logical for a global corporation to hire people where the customers are.
Same with their callcenters. I don't care if the person on the phone is in Hong Kong or Dallas Tx, he doesn't speak my language anyway (in fact, the HK person has a better chance as we have a sizeable Chinese minority here with contacts at home, while US people never seem to speak a word across the border thinking that everyone should speak their lingo, an HK Chinese also is likely to speak a form of English that's more easily understood to people outside the US than most US people).
There's a big difference to companies shifting production away from where the customers are and companies expanding globally.
Dell is a case of the latter (mainly).

[Thomas Paul]

Of its 46,000 workers, 23,800 were stationed in other countries as of Jan. 30.
The vast majority of Dell's computer sales are in the US but the majority of its workforce is overseas.

[Don Stadler]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

The vast majority of Dell's computer sales are in the US but the majority of its workforce is overseas.

How sure are you of this, Tom? Dell is very big here in Europe and is a major player in the Japanese market, which would tend to indicate that a majority of their sales would be outside the US.....

[Joe Pluta]

In 2003, 69% of Dell revenue came from the Americas, %20.5 from Europe, %10.5 from Asia/Pacific-Japan.
Joe

[Paul Stevens]

What I find funny:
Michael a Dem supporter (Kerry jobs leaving ....)
and
Joe a Rep supporter (Bush this is good for the economy ...)
Are taking the other side of the issue. So Joe are you voting Kerry and Michael voting Bush.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Don Stadler:
How sure are you of this, Tom? Dell is very big here in Europe and is a major player in the Japanese market, which would tend to indicate that a majority of their sales would be outside the US.....

I don't think people realize how huge the US market is. 69% of Dell's revenue comes from the US.
http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/corporate/annual/Dell2004AR.pdf
See page 20.

[Joe Pluta]

Are taking the other side of the issue. So Joe are you voting Kerry and Michael voting Bush .
Actually, I'm an independent. Remember, I come from Chicago, where Democrats rule the city and Republicans rule the suburbs. I'm a long-time party pragmatist. I'm as likely to vote Democratic as Republican, depending on who has the better plan for the current state of the Union. I have, though, been pro-Bush for his handling of 9/11 and Iraq; I've been pretty clear on that.
However, there's a statistically significant chance that I'll move to the D side come November. The last straw came from an anti-visa newsletter I get:
==========
A new bill has been submitted to the House to raise the number of H-1B visas that can be issued per year (we call this the H-1B cap). There are also changes to the L-1 visa.
You gotta love how Congress names these bills - it's called the "American Workforce Improvement and Jobs Protection Act" or HR 4166; introduced on April 2, 2004. Only employers that want to import more cheap labor will think this bill is an improvement, and the only ones whose jobs will be protected are those that come here on visas. HR 4166 was entered into Congress on the sly probably to keep it from the public eye. Look to the Indian press to cover this story before anything appears in the U.S.
The easiest way to see the bill is to go to: http://www.hrpolicy.org/legislation/108/hr4166.pdf
or go to http://thomas.loc.gov/
The bill was introduced by the following Representatives:
Lamar Smith (R-TX)
John Carter (R-TX)
Jeff Flake (R-AZ)
Steve Chabot (R-OH)
Bob Goodlatte (R-VA)
Buck McKeon (R-CA)
The only good news is that the bill was introduced by the Republicans so at least at this moment it's still a partisan bill. Unless some heat is put on Congress it will be only a matter of time before the Democrats sign on since most of them support H-1B and L-1. If you want to do something to stop this bill from passing it will probably do no good to go after any of the politicians on the list because they are beyond redemption - although if you are in their state you should call their office and ask why they signed onto this anti-American bill. If you write a brief summary of your conversation I might put it in follow-up newsletters.
Find your Rep's contact information by going to: http://www.house.gov/
=======
Joe
[ April 16, 2004: Message edited by: Joe Pluta ]

[Tim Holloway]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
What's the problem with Dell moving production to where the customers are?
When Japanese car manufacturers opened up plants in the US did you complain that your Lexus or Honda are not built in Japan?
After all, Japan is their home market...

I understand that it's profitable for Japanese auto manufacturers to build in the US these days, but a lot of the reason that those US plants exist is because Detroit put pressure on the US Govt. I can tell you that the city where I live is a major port of entry for the Japanese (and European) cars that aren't made domestically.
BTW, don't blame foreign factories for the delay in getting a Dell. It takes weeks to get one here, as well, and we're practically next door to Texas.

[Warren Dew]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
A new bill has been submitted to the House to raise the number of H-1B visas that can be issued per year (we call this the H-1B cap). There are also changes to the L-1 visa.

[Stuff based on Warren's not being able to differentiate between '1' and '2' deleted.]
[ April 16, 2004: Message edited by: Warren Dew ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Warren Dew:

You realize that for an H-1B visa, the employer first has to advertise the job to U.S. residents, and accept any who apply and are able to do the job, right? The purpose of the H-1B is to allow foreigners to do jobs that are too crumby for any American to take.

You need to do some research on how H-1B's are actually being used in the US. A company will advertise a job as requiring impossible skills at low money and then hire an H-1B to fill the slot when no one applies. Do you really think that there is a shortage of skilled Java programmers in the US?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Warren Dew:
The purpose of the H-1B is to allow foreigners to do jobs that are too crumby for any American to take.

This is incorrect. Do you really think that we are hiring Masters and PhD's to pick fruit and clean bathrooms?

[Warren Dew]

Oops, got H-1B and H-2B mixed up. (Just came back to delete the post, but I guess that would be unfair now that someone has responded.)

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by Paul Stevens:
What I find funny:
Michael a Dem supporter (Kerry jobs leaving ....)

I'm registered as an Independent. I consider myself socially liberal and economically conservative. My take on enlightened self-interest: free trade stops wars; everyone should at least pull their own weight. I believe among companies, it's survival of the fittest; among human beings, it's untenable policy.
In general I listen to Democratic rhetoric and usually smile at their more absurd statements. In general I listen to Republican rhetoric and usually don't smile because they sound more stupid and full of piss than misguided. So I certainly have a bias.
What's ironic to me is that the economy as a whole seemed very good in the Clinton years. I built a decent IT career and a thriving business in that economy. I've been lucky to have held on and grown it since 2000; no one I talk to regularly thinks the future is bright.
And there you have it: if I could equate Republicanism with a good economic outlook, I'd probably buy into the "thousand points of light" malarkey and other rah-rah conceptual platforms the GOP favors over real, street-level policy. The Democratic most often strikes me as thinking their way to a solution, so if they've missed on some prediction, at least you can see why -- some of the time, anyway.
[ April 16, 2004: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Warren Dew]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
And there you have it: if I could equate Republicanism with a good economic outlook, I'd probably buy into the "thousand points of light" malarkey and other rah-rah conceptual platforms the GOP favors over real, street-level policy. The Democratic most often strikes me as thinking their way to a solution, so if they've missed on some prediction, at least you can see why -- some of the time, anyway.

Interesting. I usually find the opposite - the Democrats seem to think they can simply legislate a solution, without thinking about the fact that when they change ground rules, people will act differently, while at least some Republicans actually understand a little economics and how incentives affect behavior. Of course, Massachusetts Republicans may not be that representative of Republicans in general.
The truth is, I don't think politicians of either party are generally competent to really run the economy. My theory is that the economy boomed in the Clinton years largely because the Clinton administration was deadlocked with a Republican majority in Congress, preventing the politicians from doing too much damage to the economy.
Then again, despite the optimism of the 'bubble' years, I'm not so sure that particular boom was healthy for the economy.
(And I do favor the expansion of H-1B visas; I just don't think the argument for it is as cut and dried as the argument for H-2B.)

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Unless some heat is put on Congress it will be only a matter of time before the Democrats sign on since most of them support H-1B and L-1.

Damn Straight, you cannot trust Zoe Lofgren or Shiela Jackson Lee.
I'm sorry to see this is hidden in flame war between you and ME, as entertaining as it was.
[ April 16, 2004: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ]