Is H1B in demand ?

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi all !

I am wondering : Java market seems to be up, many job offers are flooding now, but I wonder whether there is an issue about visas for I see most of the time "no sponsorship / H1B". So are there already sufficient H1B available on US soil, or do recruiters frown on foreigners, or are there many native US with relevant qualifications unemployed, or something else ?
I wonder for some adds especially most demandings (kind of "Java architect + databases expert + networking profesionnal + ...") regulary come back so logically unfullfilled, but they carry on refusing sponsorship despite seemingly obvious lack of relevant candidates, so what's up ?

Best regards.

[Tiffany Sun]

I guess this is mainly because of H1B quota. For the fiscal year 2004(10/03 to 9/04), all H1B were used up before April, 2004. For the fiscal year 2005, there is a rumor that the quota will be used up within one week, when new H1Bs start to get processed in this October.

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi all !

Thanks for answering T Sun, I believed it was a worthy question.
This answers partly to my question, it does technically (no more H1B available so they can't sponsor anyway), but if you are true about rumor, it means H1B quotas will be awfuly short so unable to satisfy demand. Are there alternatives (GC, other visas, other...) for this looks like a terrific shortage of highly skilled manpower, so US companies or US gov will have to do something, I guess.

Best regards.

[Eric Lemaitre]

Sorry for duplicated above, dear Admins, page stuck and I hit reload button, feel free to clear the unvolunteer duplicate.

TIA.

[Jeroen Wenting]

The US market is saturated by unemployed US citizens, most of whom would like to have a job now thank you.
H1B and other programs are designed to bring people into the country for positions that cannot be filled locally.
With hundreds of thousands of unemployed programmers and other IT people there are very few such jobs out there.

Of course in the past H1B was abused to bring in cheap labour from overseas, but those jobs have now been moved to India and the Philipines and the quota reduced significantly to compensate.

[Inuka Vincit]

Yes H1Bs are being hired...but very few. I was working in the ASIC industry and those guys are doing worse than IT.

From what I have learned so far the number of H1Bs filed is very much less than last year.. not sure how much right now. The job market seems to be picking up... so I guess there is still a chance out there. I am just going to take the time to finish my thesis and get some certifications.

On an other note if you were previously on an H1B.. you would fall under the AC21 regulations and therefore you wouldnt be counted against the quota(techincally you can do a H1B transfer but you would be pushing it). And there is the GC lottery for next year .. and on a positive note seems like INS is processing the labour certificates again after the 9/11 halt

I keep an eye this site and forums http://www.murthy.com/index.html to keep uptodate
[ August 10, 2004: Message edited by: Arjuna Rantunga ]

[Tiffany Sun]

As far as I know, H1B quota went from 195,000 to 65,000 starting from last year. And if I remembered it right, there are 10,000 reserved for Canada and Singapore, so only 55,000 for other countries. But even the rumor is true, it doesn't mean there is a great shortage of H1Bs, because companies can apply for H1B starting this April(6 months before October) for 2005 quota, so people just started early than before. but it did make it harder for candidates, because they have to find someone willing to sponsor them 6 months before they could work for them. Besides, H1Bs are not cheap labors, their payment have to meet certain standard, which are normally state average salaries for that job category.

[Jay Shin]

If you're fresh out of college or have less than 3-5 years of professional experience, then you're out of luck... meaning it would be exetremely difficult to get H-1B sponsorship.

IT environment in U.S has dramaticallly changed during the last 5 years or so. Most U.S corporations won't even consider cadidates who require H-1B sponsorship.

Why would a U.S corporation even bother to consider hiring a junior to mid-level H-1B programmers??? There are already lots of American programmers looking for jobs.

Not only that, most of junior to mid-level programming jobs can be outsourced from India or East Europe at a sixth of the cost.

[Dmitry Melnik]

IMHO now it's close to impossible to find an employer in the open job market who is willing to sponsor H-1B

I know 2-3 people, who got their H-1Bs a year or two ago. Before getting hired, they all had been telecommuting from outside of the US for the company that employed them later, and established good relationships with bosses.
[ August 10, 2004: Message edited by: Dmitry Melnik ]

[Inuka Vincit]

Originally posted by Dmitry Melnik:
IMHO now it's close to impossible to find an employer in the open job market who is willing to sponsor H-1B

I know 2-3 people, who got their H-1Bs a year or two ago. Before getting hired, they all had been telecommuting for the employer, and established good relationship with bosses.

If people who are experiance are hired they are not taken from the quota, it is considered an H1B transfer. I do agree I am in the ugly group, so I went back to school hopefully this ugly economy recovers when I graduate. If not off I goto be outsourced labour.

[Dmitry Melnik]

If people who are experiance are hired they are not taken from the quota, it is considered an H1B transfer.


I was not specific enough in my previous post, I apologize.

It was not an H-1B transfer. One has to be in the US, and have a valid H-1B status to be eligible for a transfer. Those guys were hired from abroad and their H-1Bs counted against the quota.

[arnel nicolas]

I am wondering : Java market seems to be up, many job offers are flooding now, but I wonder whether there is an issue about visas for I see most of the time "no sponsorship / H1B"

Yes, most companies in the US today prefer the L-1 Visa to hire skills overseas.

[Jeroen Wenting]

H1Bs are not cheap labors, their payment have to meet certain standard, which are normally state average salaries for that job category.

maybe true, but that just means you hire people for top jobs at average salaries for which no local would take that job.
Say you want a programmer. Average salary is $50K (just an example). The job requires someone who were he a US citizen would demand twice that. From India you get someone (through an agency that takes 20% before handing the rest to the candidate) for $50K, that's a 50% saving. Out of that $50K the candidate gets 80% or $40K, the rest is the fee for the recruitment agency.
At $40K he's making more than he would at home, yet less than half that he would had he held a US passport.

[Dmitry Melnik]

but that just means you hire people for top jobs at average salaries for which no local would take that job.

What is your estimated percentage of H-1B workers which got top jobs for average pay? 100%?

So far I was only able to get about the usual 10/90 distribution between top and non-top jobs among H-1B workers. May be I have not run across enough of them...
[ August 11, 2004: Message edited by: Dmitry Melnik ]

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi all !

I lauched this post, I must appologize for having forgotten to give enough precisions : I meant getting H1B visa for a strong skills positions, not a junior one, kind of around 10 IT years experience among which 5 in Java, with relevant certs (around SCBCD). In particular I supposed hiring for a position level for which US workers were not available, so obvious to me I didn't mind writing it.
For example the kind of adds which are kept regularly reposted on monster, so supposed unfullfilled positions.

So I reformulate a little my original post, why do many highly qualified position adds which seem kept unfullfilled by US workers carry on refusing any H1B sponsorship ?

Best regards.

[Homer Phillips]

Do you provide sponsorships for H-1 Visas?
Under certain circumstances we will consider sponsoring an H1-B visa. For example, if you have quantifiable proficiency in a skill set that is very marketable and mainstream, we may consider visa sponsorship. All visa issues are evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

These guys are hiring H1-Bs See the last FAQ

[Dmitry Melnik]

why do many highly qualified position adds which seem kept unfullfilled by US workers carry on refusing any H1B sponsorship ?

Guess #1: Those are short term positions. It just does not make sense neither for employee, nor the employer to mess with H-1B for a 3-6 month long contract.

Guess #2: There is something wrong about those offers, and nobody wants to take them. And you would not, if you knew more.

Guess #3: The job requires a security clearance (unavailable for non-citizens) or traveling (might violate H-1B status).

Guess #4: Some of those ads were published with no intent of hiring.
[ August 11, 2004: Message edited by: Dmitry Melnik ]

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi all !

I bet the guesses above are most accurate answer.

So I presume best techniques for H1B candidates are to post their resume either at javaranch or monster and keep waiting ...

Your opinions ?

Best regards.

[Tiffany Sun]

Jeroen Wenting, what you said is not accurate: a company can not simply say they want to hire a programmer, they need a title, like senior programmer, or software engineer, etc, and detailed job requirement. Then according to this requirement, there are detailed salary requirements. Maybe for a programmer it's 60K, for a senior programmer, it's 75K... For an extra smart H1B programmmer, he might earn a little less than a green card or citizen, because he can't change job freely, but definitely not 50% less.

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi all !

This post is targeted to basudev agrawal especially.

Could you explain me how to detect or where to find Consultants (websites, nests , perhaps people who post job offers on javaranch forum, anything else...) ? For each time I see a Job offer it is posted either anonymously by a company or by one of its representative, but I never detect any explicit Consultant.
I am not too much in a hurry, I plan to get prepared for year's end and get some relevant certs before while I can afford the time, and acquire new technologies of utmost importance before leaving (JDO, AOP, JSF).

TIA, best regards.

[Homer Phillips]

why do many highly qualified position adds which seem kept unfullfilled by US workers carry on refusing any H1B sponsorship ?

Guess #5. They don't like foreigners.
[ August 12, 2004: Message edited by: Homer Phillips ]

[Dmitry Melnik]

They don't like foreigners.

Do "they" like making money by employing foreighners? What do "they" like better, money or foreighners?

Are "they" not (recent) foreighners themselves?
For some reason about 80% of recruiters sending me e-mails have very foreighn names...

[Dmitry Melnik]

Your opinions ?

Eric, aren't you focused too much on H-1B track? Have you ever thought about taking L-1, or E-1/2 routs?

In any case, it takes good direct contacts and collaboration with US companies (their branches in Europe) to start with.
[ August 12, 2004: Message edited by: Dmitry Melnik ]

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi all !

Argh , if they frown so much about foreigners then what about french, frensh-bashing period is historically much nearer than Lafayette, Rochambaud and Count De Grasse (naval victor at Chesapeake which forced 1781 british surrender at Yorktown) one... So this is it, I'm doomed to staying in France .
More seriously, of course I know that other visas exist, but they are practically unkown by common people, only lawyers know them well. Only GC and H1B are really known by non-US IT people.
It seems extremely doubtful to me trying to rely on US companies in europe for getting an US visa because IMHO... they won't send bad employees to USA and will try to keep the good ones for themselves, sending an european employee abroad will be against their own interest almost always.
It is true however that it is not impossible that I can get a L1 visa through my own company for they have to create a branch/subsidiary in US next year, and luckily for me although journeys there are OK as they are settled with kids none apart me would consider emigrating, so perhaps I could jump aboard on this one.

Best regards.

[Homer Phillips]

Do "they" like making money by employing foreighners? What do "they" like better, money or foreighners?

They are not logical. They like money better. IMO, who they hire does not make that much difference to them dollar wise. IMO, they like to come to work and work with people like them.

I lived on this planet for a number of years. If you go into the lunch room at any large company in the US you will find birds of a feather eat lunch together. Sure there will be exceptions, but by and large there's the rules. The same principal applies to hiring.
[ August 12, 2004: Message edited by: Homer Phillips ]

[Dmitry Melnik]

If you go into the lunch room at any large company in the US you will find birds of a feather eat lunch together.

People who benefit from hiring do not eat lunch together with employees, I guess.

[Mike Gershman]

It's true that there are a lot of job postings for programmers, but they typically specify several years of experience in each of a specific set of software products. Knowing or even being certified in the products doesn't count, the job specs call for recent paid experience. This makes it pretty hard for programmers looking to upgrade their skills to qualify for new jobs. Kind of chicken and egg.

Until a couple of years ago, companies would hire programmers with good credentials or even high potential and allow for a short learning curve until they became fully productive. The current pattern of unreasonably rigid hiring requirements will only be fixed when the jobs go begging long enough to force employers to loosen up.

If you want to see the normal pattern, look at the jobs offered by US companies operating in India. You just need a good degree in IT to be hired.

H1B visas delay the reversion to balanced supply and demand in the US. That's why the H1B quotas in IT have been cut. In addition, the feds are looking a lot closer at the certifications in H1B applications, which may explain corporate reluctance to sponsor H1B's for normal hiring. As has been mentioned above, H1B's are not supposed to be a source of cheap labor. And this is an election year.

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi Mike !

Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
H1B visas delay the reversion to balanced supply and demand in the US. That's why the H1B quotas in IT have been cut. In addition, the feds are looking a lot closer at the certifications in H1B applications, which may explain corporate reluctance to sponsor H1B's for normal hiring. As has been mentioned above, H1B's are not supposed to be a source of cheap labor. And this is an election year.

OK, I agree with you, H1B recruitment cycle has surely become totally inadapted, so bad that it can't even be considered as useful : as all new somewhat 65,000 H1B visas are consumed within an awfuly short period (? 1 week ?) no serious recruitment can any longer be wondered through H1B.
But this leads me to another linked issue : I am persuaded US must be able to remain an attraction center for most talented, no longer simple coders who are strongly outsourced, but for higer level such as generalist, architects and company-makers, for they bring a real added value to business by developping existing jobs or creating new ones. So is there any sensible way left for hiring really needed alien professionnals any longer in US at any time in the year ?

Best regards.

[Homer Phillips]

But this leads me to another linked issue : I am persuaded US must be able to remain an attraction center for most talented, no longer simple coders who are strongly outsourced, but for higer level such as generalist, architects and company-makers, for they bring a real added value to business by developping existing jobs or creating new ones. So is there any sensible way left for hiring really needed alien professionnals any longer in US at any time in the year?

Are you saying that US citizens are lacking in talent? I am not really keeping up, but, how are they doing at the olympics these days?

[Eric Lemaitre]

Originally posted by Homer Phillips:


Are you saying that US citizens are lacking in talent? I am not really keeping up, but, how are they doing at the olympics these days?

No, not at all, it is simply that as you know vitality of a nation comes from new blood, new ideas, new ways of thinking which never come from an enclosed environment. As an American, you know better than me historical citations (from Abraham Lincoln mainly, but so many others too) praizing newcomers for making America's vitality. What is more, every nation which has enclosed itself in past known history has declined sooner or later. Vitality comes from opening to others.
Of course novelty may come from inside too, as when Ronald Reagan tried taxes lowering as a new way to beef-up economics, against many odds at start, but it comes much more often and in a much simpler way from newcommers who by definition think differently so try different things that natives wouldn't have thought about because of culture uniformization.
So America must keep on welcoming talented immigrants to keep its economic advantage, but of course it must choose them among those who can really potentially achieve interesting things.
A last citation (? from Churchill ?) about achievement : "everyone said it was impossible to achieve, until came someone who hadn't heard of it" .

Best regards.

[Homer Phillips]

So America must keep on welcoming talented immigrants to keep its economic advantage, but of course it must choose them among those who can really potentially achieve interesting things.

Mostly I'd agree with you. But here in the US we have this sacred monument, The Statue of Liberty. It was given to the US by our friends of a love-hate relationship, the French. In the drive to acquire funds for the pedestal on which to place the statue, The New Colossus, was written by Emma Lazarus in 1883.

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to be free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

This is the American ideal. IMO, having some standard which immigrants must exceed is truely repulsive. If the US can only accept so many a year, they should accept them by lottery, taking any one who wins a slot.

FWIW, IMO, accepting more people who meet the criteria of H1-B citizenship is ugly and rude. Their home countries need them just as much as the US.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Equal means not just those from elsewhere that had the capital to acquire a university education.

[Mark Herschberg]

I'm trying to avoid taking sides, since I suspect that this thread could get heated and I want to try to stay impartial, but I wanted to offer some additional historical information. (Also, I cited a source just to show that it's not just my opinion; I don't necessarily agree with the source on any or all issues.)

Originally posted by Homer Phillips:

IMO, having some standard which immigrants must exceed is truely repulsive. If the US can only accept so many a year, they should accept them by lottery, taking any one who wins a slot.

FWIW, IMO, accepting more people who meet the criteria of H1-B citizenship is ugly and rude. Their home countries need them just as much as the US.

US immigration policy has historically not treatd everyone as equal.

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/ISSUES/96/chpt11.html

Prior to 1965, specific quotas favoring predominantly European countries were enforced. In 1965, Congress repealed this system of quotas and established a worldwide quota for immigration, with a limit per country. This major change in U.S. immigration law put the priority on family unification individual Americans sponsoring relatives to come here. The law fundamentally changed the em phasis from specific nationalities and opened the process much more widely to immigrants from Asia. Spouses and most children of American citizens are exempt from the quota system, while other relatives are given priority over foreigners with no American relatives.

In my high school civics class we were taught that we also currently give preferences to educated workers, such as doctors and PhDs. And I believe political refugees don't fall under the quota system.

--Mark

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi !

You guessed since long I am french, so I have my own idea about USA which is probably not as valuable as yours, perhaps even not relevant at all, but I see no issue at all on selecting high education immigrants only, on contrary.
IMHO, USA is no longer apart extremely few exceptions a country where everyone can succeed well, simply a country where still everyone has honestly the same chances to succeed than everyone else. This means that to really succeed in reality you must be in financials, or engineer, or surgeon, etc..., but anyhow you must have high education to succed now in USA. Some very rare exceptions still exist where people who started from nothing became milionaires, but these remain exceptions. USA is a highly modern technological country, and as in any such country as Japan or UK in general only high education people succeed. This is no despise of US dream, simply comparing dream to reality. On contrary, US still really trusts new ideas and has a real risk-capital culture that many other modern countries have not, such as France.
So it is nice for morality to still welcome low education people, but in reality it is low-value present for extremely few will really achieve something really interesting. This is no despising of anyone, just a matter of fact, and it is the same for every sophisticated country. Chances to really succed are fairer in US, but they remain weak as in any other sophisticated country.
This is why I am still developping my skills despite an already respectable level of knowledge before attempting my own take-off, the more IT certs and experience, the best my chances on US soil. As a simple good Java Developper, it simply won't be enough compare to mobs already there with same skills.

Best regards.

[Dmitry Melnik]

Homer: accepting more people who meet the criteria of H1-B citizenship is ugly and rude.

More? In comparison to to what?
Ugly and rude to whom?
There is a great distance (pretty big chunk of life) between H-1B and citizenship. Not everyone makes it to the end.

Their home countries need them just as much as the US.

How do you know?

Mark: we were taught that we also currently give preferences to educated workers, such as doctors and PhDs.

They don't need to mess with any H-1Bs since they can apply for a green card right away as "persons of extraordinary ability". BTW Eric, if you are so cool, why don't want to give it a try?

And I believe political refugees don't fall under the quota system.

They may or may not have a quota, but it's separate of H-1B quota in any case.

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi Dmitry !

Dmitry:Ugly and rude to whom ? There is a great distance (pretty big chunk of life) between H-1B and citizenship. Not everyone makes it to the end.

Selecting people with higer in priority means simply selecting people who have best chances to integrate, apart from the fact they should likely add positive benefits to US for their abilities. A great deal of people, about the half for the french, can't cope with it and get back to their native country. Living in US is not a leisure, you must almost always work much harder than in the country you come from, especially for western europeans. But another present trend is some of them wondering about getting back to USA because life in western europe has a tendency to get lower, you have now to work much harder for lower wages, so US become an option again for work/wages ratio. I personnaly know someone in this case, worked for years at Philadelphia, then getting fed up and back to europe, then wishing to get back to USA.

Their home countries need them just as much as the US.

Despite this is totally logical, the answer cannot be yes. It may be hard to figure for americans, but many countries do not take care about business, or don't make anything to help it, or even worse are against it. This is particulary true of Germany and France. Germany left-side government had to literally commit suicide by being compelled to adopt real liberal economic laws, they are now loosing every election, but they had no choice for country's economics survival sake. This is even much worse for France, where extreme-left civil servants placed at strategic places slaughter liberal economics without any retailation. France whealth has lowered from about 2nd place to 12th out of 15 countries in OECD in about 20 years (http://www.bleublancturc.com/News/richesse_France.htm, in french sorry), and still lowering. As a french, I can't guarantee you these highly educated people whishing to create business are not needed, but I can guarantee you they are greatly despised and harried, so most emigrate. So there is no proof at all they are really needed in every country, in some they are not liked at all.

Dmitry: They don't need to mess with any H-1Bs since they can apply for a green card right away as "persons of extraordinary ability". BTW Eric, if you are so cool, why don't want to give it a try?

Are you kidding Dmitry ? Of course I want , but from what I heard a GC is almost impossible to get, for "persons of extraordinary ability" practically means internationaly renowed scientists, and IT professionnals even gifted don't match this. I expected to get H1B first, then GC. I don't know what level of certs (no proof for real practical ability, I know, but good hint when you have to persuade a very far remote recruiter) should be needed, I believe SCEA and Cisco CCDP together should be enough.

Best regards.

[Jeff Walker]

Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi all !

I am wondering : Java market seems to be up, many job offers are flooding now, but I wonder whether there is an issue about visas for I see most of the time "no sponsorship / H1B". So are there already sufficient H1B available on US soil, or do recruiters frown on foreigners, or are there many native US with relevant qualifications unemployed, or something else ?
I wonder for some adds especially most demandings (kind of "Java architect + databases expert + networking profesionnal + ...") regulary come back so logically unfullfilled, but they carry on refusing sponsorship despite seemingly obvious lack of relevant candidates, so what's up ?

Best regards.

Ok, my 2 cents worth. I started on a H1-B back in '95. I went through 3 companies in 6 years. I actually had to go back to my home country to renew my h1-B visa and start again. (You only get 3 years on each H1-B). The companies all promised to help me get a Greencard. None ever did. They kept putting it off, and telling me "Next year, we'll really help you". They all lied. I ended up marrying a girl from New York, so she sponsored me and we are happily married still. But I understand the difficulty you're all going through. Good luck to you all!

Right now, I would not recommend anybody come to the US on a H1-B in the IT field, at least not until the employment situation improves drastically here. There are just too many skilled American engineers out of work right now. Most Americans have not accepted this working fact of life in the 22nd century; just because you WERE a highly paid engineer making 100k does not mean your still worth the money now. Seniority and perceived skills are so last century! You need to re-evaluate your worth to companies to get hired now.

Last comments,
not every job advertised is real. I worked in the IT department of a large bank in Boston, and they routinely advertised for people when there were no real open positions!! They do it to keep their finger on the pulse of the talent that is available at a certain price. I think it is unfair, because you cannot tell in advance the real jobs from the fakes.

Also, some jobs are advertised as if they need a person with these skills right now, yet I've been told a few times things like "Sorry, we are not actively filling that position until Q4". That was back in the first week of June '04.

It's dog eat dog out there.
Get used to it, my fellow engineers!

Jeff Walker

[Dmitry Melnik]

I heard a GC is almost impossible to get, for "persons of extraordinary ability" practically means internationaly renowed scientists, and IT professionnals even gifted don't match this.

It's not that unreachable. I have quite a few counter-examples, and I'd suggest you to consult a US immigration lawyer specializing in "extraordinary ability" cases.

[Dmitry Melnik]

Jeff: Right now, I would not recommend anybody come to the US on a H1-B in the IT field, at least not until the employment situation improves drastically here.

Totally ageed.

just because you WERE a highly paid engineer making 100k does not mean your still worth the money now. Seniority and perceived skills are so last century! You need to re-evaluate your worth to companies to get hired now.

Perceived skills? What do you think real skills are? The ones that matter for hiring companies.

[Dmitry Melnik]

Updates on H-1B cap 08/24/04

[Mike Gershman]

I am persuaded US must be able to remain an attraction center for most talented, no longer simple coders who are strongly outsourced, but for higher level such as generalist, architects and company-makers, for they bring a real added value to business by developping existing jobs or creating new ones.

Eric, the jobs available in the US today are the opposite of your model. Employers want someone who worked with exactly the same software in the same business sector.

Why do they do that? Because the current job sitution allows it.

As I understand it, an H1-B is based on specific skills unavailable in the US. Superb generalists would use other visa programs, such as those described above.

My own issue is that many of those "unavailable skills" can be acquired by any good IT professional with a few days' study and a couple of months' experience. H1-B's should not be a substitute for routine training of new hires.