How do I plan next few years?

[Tina Desai]

Hello Friends,

I am in UK with my husband for an year. Im finding it difficult to get a job here. I have already had a break in my career before - of 8 months long.

If I do not get a job here, it will be another break of atleast 14 months.

When I get back, again it will be 3/4 months before I actually get a job and start working. In 2/3 years we plan to have a baby. It will be another break. So even at this moment I can see 3 more breaks in my career.

These breaks kind of leave me less confident as I end up getting chunks of experiences at different companies.

Also I am afraid this will cause the employers not to hire me. (This is a thought. Some seniors with whom I discussed this say that it does not matter much if the breaks are for valid reasons - like baby, acompaying husband to another country)

How do I plan my next few years of career so that I will be confident inspite of the breaks, less prone to losses because of the breaks?

Certification etc cannot be used to minimise every break. Few days back I got help from you about how to use this time. I would appreciate if someone can give tips on seeing through breaks.

Regards,
Tina

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi !

IMHO certifications are always a sensible reason, it takes mounths to prepare a certification by working after job's hours, much less if one takes a break, so it will always be seen as a good reason for a break.
If you cannot, then make your own project which won't make you earn money but at least will allow you to enhance your knowledge and bring you fame, such as an open source project for example. JBoss wants valuable extensions to its server right now, you could try to sign in.

Best regards.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
IMHO certifications are always a sensible reason, it takes mounths to prepare a certification by working after job's hours, much less if one takes a break, so it will always be seen as a good reason for a break.

With all due respct, this is a dangerous way to think. As Richard Bolles (What Color Is Your Parachute?) Notes: it doesn't matter what you think, it matter's what the employers think.

You can, of course, argue that because employers have no common consensus (Richard shows resumes of hired candidates to employers who say, "I would never consider the candidate with that reusme"), everyone's opinion is valid. In that sense your opinion is valid. My take on it as an employer is that most companies do not look well on it. It's less experience. It suggests a greater likelihood of you leaving. It looks suspiciously like being regularly laid off. It's "different."

Q: What's the difference between a candidate who often gets laid off and used the time to get certs, and one who has breaks for other reasons and gets certs?
A: I don't know, but in the 15-45 seconds I'll spend looking at a resume, I'll usually decide it's more worthwhile to consider another candidate.


Remember, job hunting is not about finding the absolute best candidate, but about finding the best candidate at reasonable cost.


--Mark

[Tina Desai]

How do the open-source people hire developer's when they need to? Can I apply to such jobs? How?

Mark, I checked the site you gave but was not sure which article exactly you were referring to.

Tina

[Tina Desai]

I know less exp!! If without breaks it should have been x years of experience and due to breaks Im having x-2 years of experience, Im ok with it if I get treated like a person having x-2 years of experience. The thing is that with more and more breaks will my chances of getting job will go on decreasing?

Tina

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Tina Desai:
How do the open-source people hire developer's when they need to? Can I apply to such jobs? How?

You don't "apply" to open source positions. You just start coding and submit your code to the repository. The owner of the code then decides whether or not to accept your code (so be sure to make it easy by documenting what you did). If you don't know where to start you can ask the owner to suggested some bugs/improvements that need to be tackled.

Originally posted by Tina Desai:

Mark, I checked the site you gave but was not sure which article exactly you were referring to.

I was referring to a comment by the author of a book and gave a referemce to the book.

--Mark

[Mary Wallace]

I attended an interview before three days. One person asked me why I am
leaving the current job and moving to another state and I said it because my
husband is in that state. Then he asked me the that city where my hus is around 5 hrs drive frm this city and so eventually you will move to that state. then he asked me why he choose this city and some personal ques.

My que is, can they ask ques like these. I mean these are personal questions which they shouldnt ask. I can be wrong.

[Tina Desai]

Mark, I wanted to ask if there is a way, I can get 'hired' i.e paid for my dev work, by some remote entity. The fact that I have moved phisically from one country to another will be less interfering in my work if I am working with some arrangement remotely.

Wally, yes I have faced questions regarding family in every interview. There are always more questions on husbands(I do not ave any yet but expect questions on kids as well) as our decisions tend to get affected by them if not revolve around them.

In such cases, be sure what you want - to be with your husband and work OR be away from him for the sake of the career. And be firm. These questions are asked to test you. Will this lady accept the job but ditch us after a couple of months for being with her husband is there real concern.

Tina

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Mary Wallace:
I attended an interview before three days. One person asked me why I am
leaving the current job and moving to another state and I said it because my
husband is in that state. Then he asked me the that city where my hus is around 5 hrs drive frm this city and so eventually you will move to that state. then he asked me why he choose this city and some personal ques.

My que is, can they ask ques like these. I mean these are personal questions which they shouldnt ask. I can be wrong.

They can ask personal questions. In the US, they cannot ask questions about your race, religion, marital status, etc. Here are some examples of fair and illegal questions.

Now if you bring up that you have a husband, I'm not sure what the rules are on that. I believe they can ask why you are moving to a new state. I think they can also ask "personal" questions like favorite food, etc.

--Mark

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Tina Desai:
Mark, I wanted to ask if there is a way, I can get 'hired' i.e paid for my dev work, by some remote entity. The fact that I have moved phisically from one country to another will be less interfering in my work if I am working with some arrangement remotely.

Of course you can, it's called outsourcing/offshoring and it's being done world wide.

--Mark

[Tina Desai]

Thanks Mark!
I will try to find more info on oursourcing. Thanks a lot!

Tina

[Inuka Vincit]

Originally posted by Mary Wallace:
I attended an interview before three days. One person asked me why I am
leaving the current job and moving to another state and I said it because my
husband is in that state. Then he asked me the that city where my hus is around 5 hrs drive frm this city and so eventually you will move to that state. then he asked me why he choose this city and some personal ques.

My que is, can they ask ques like these. I mean these are personal questions which they shouldnt ask. I can be wrong.

The intervier should not ask personel questiosn of that nature and your not obliged to answer them. Your mistake was to tell them your personel reason for moving. Feed them the BS they want to here, career advancement etc etc etc... challenging oppertunty etc etc. Crack surfing gets you the job, milk the oppertuninty.. As long as you have the skills to do the job, it shouldnt realy matter too much.

[Inuka Vincit]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:


With all due respct, this is a dangerous way to think. As Richard Bolles (What Color Is Your Parachute?) Notes: it doesn't matter what you think, it matter's what the employers think.

You can, of course, argue that because employers have no common consensus (Richard shows resumes of hired candidates to employers who say, "I would never consider the candidate with that reusme"), everyone's opinion is valid. In that sense your opinion is valid. My take on it as an employer is that most companies do not look well on it. It's less experience. It suggests a greater likelihood of you leaving. It looks suspiciously like being regularly laid off. It's "different."

Q: What's the difference between a candidate who often gets laid off and used the time to get certs, and one who has breaks for other reasons and gets certs?
A: I don't know, but in the 15-45 seconds I'll spend looking at a resume, I'll usually decide it's more worthwhile to consider another candidate.


Remember, job hunting is not about finding the absolute best candidate, but about finding the best candidate at reasonable cost.


--Mark

Ofcourse your correct, but how are people who are laid off supposed to deal with their time? So according to you they might as well do nothing... I respectfully disagree.

Specially the many H1B types. More school... more certifications. Doing certifications, learing new skills, reading architechture design books... helps out. I have been in the industry and have met many ppl with experiance who realy dont have that much skill. Ofcourse its upto the person who wants to hire you, in my humble opinion whats on the resume(experiance, education) gets you the interview, and how you do in the interview gets the job. I come from the hardware industry and thats how things work, I assume this is how the software industry opperates as well.

[Tina Desai]

I agree to both of you :roll:

A gap is a gap. You cannot really make it look smooth.

But if you do not remain in touch with your own field, it sure is a mistake. Then you go where life takes you!

I opened this discussion as I was interested in knowing if people out there are handling such gaps in their lives far more better than myself.

Regards,
Tina

[Rashmi Banthia]

Hello Tina,

I am not sure If I am handling this type of situation any better than you. I have been unemployed in US for about a year now. Here is what I have been doing: I did search for jobs for few months - I gave up. It was frustating - at the end of 2-3 months I realized all I did was talk to people, apply for jobs - thats all - no value addition and no job.
I got 2 certifications (SCJP, SCBCD) and preparing for another one. I signed up for two open source projects(volunteer). It is just personal satisfaction - to get some work done.

Good Luck!

-Rashmi

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Benjamin Pierce:

Ofcourse your correct, but how are people who are laid off supposed to deal with their time? So according to you they might as well do nothing... I respectfully disagree.

I don't see any place where I said they should do nothing. I merely claimed that you may not merrit the distinction you hope by doing so. From an employeers perspective, it does little to mitigate the break, but yet, it's better than nothing (whether it's certs, open source, your own projects, starting your own company, etc).

--Mark

[Tina Desai]

Can I mention open source projects on my CV? with duration?
Do I get some proof from the site I work for, if it can help in my job hunting?

Tina

[Rashmi Banthia]

This is a good question. I have been mentioning open source project on my resume. (I have seen other people also do that, but they usually mention as a other/side project, because they have a full time job description). I have been contacting recruiters, they do not understand that it is an open source project (not paid-volunteer work).
You don't get any proof, however your work will be in CVS repository at Sourceforge.net. (Every program you code has @author "name") So it is very easy for any one to figure out who has written the code.

[Manish Hatwalne]

If it's a technical person he knows how to verify if you've done the coding. He knows where to search for your name. If you say you have done "struts" he knows how to verify this and where to look.

People who just look for something on papaer, get what they deserve - just a piece of paper. I know ppl who "show" 3+ years experience as a PL, and don't know the difference between static member and instance member. They had paper though, and got a chance in companies which valued paper more than valuing their own ability to asses a person for his caliber.

Don't bother about ppl who just look for papers... If you're doing something, you'll be able to show it somehow. Those who refuse to see it, ignore them. Having said that, I understand that it's very difficult not to get affected by such ppl you encounter. The key is to view their remarks/feedback/opinions in the right perspective, and not to treat them as YOUR evaluation.

HTH,
- Manish
[ August 20, 2004: Message edited by: Manish Hatwalne ]

[Tina Desai]

Rashmi, do u want to say the recruters do not know what the open-source projects are? and/or hence do not understand what it is working on them?

hm.. I guess what you say is right Manish. I agree to it.
It made the reality easy to digest.

Thanks a lot for the responses of you all!

Tina

[Manish Hatwalne]

Developing a website helps, I can assure you that from my own experience.

But then I don't think you should develop a website with that purpose in mind. I developed mine because I wanted to, just wanted to experiment with JavaScript, CSS that I had learnt at that time. Just wanted to share little that I knew, just wanted to share all the resources that I was aware of. It has been more than 3 years now, and I did all this because I was passionate about my site, and *I* wanted to add stuff there, not to seek anybody's approval or admiration. Recently, about less than a year ago or so (after 2.5 years of having this small website) I got few enquiries and some of them eventually turned into assignments. Besides, some interviewers did actually visit my site to see what I have been doing, some of them did mention it in the interview, some even appreciated that. It does help!!!

You can do lot of other things which may not pay you, but will keep you busy, in touch with the technology and hence should keep you happy and hopeful. If you already have certs, maybe you can put together your notes, add few book links to amazon and put it up on website. Try to learn struts/velocity/whatever, write a small article about it with sample code and put it on your website. Try to write a smallish birthday reminder service, or sth similar and host it on free Java server (http://www.myjavaserver.com/). Write details about such small projects in your resume. Also, as someone mentioned you can consider open-source projects.

I have interviewed people, and I am most likely to select a person who shows that he's taking initiative to learn and implement stuff rather than a person who shows 3 years exp but doesn't know what he has been doing and can't understand instance and static members. If you say you you've been associated with some open-source project, I am most likely to ask for sourceforge link and see what you have put up. Believe me, if you're doing something of that sort, you'll find lot of people who value what you've contributed.

There's a lot that can be done technically, keep developing! Speaking for myself, irrespective of whether I am getting paid for it or not, I'll be always programming! Obviously I'll be frustrated and anxious if I am not being paid or if I am unemployed; but that's not going to keep me away from programming that I love so much!!!

Hope my rambling are useful and all the best for your Job search!

- Manish

p.s Is it that difficult to get "freelance" Job in US? I though it's easier out there, maybe other can give you inputs about the sites t visit for such opportunities.

[Fred Grott]

I think you would be btter served..

-Join a project either closed or open and make sure to keep details on yoru contributions
-Become expert in an area of java then proceed to write your first book..

That will cover the next 3-5 years and thus keep you wokring during your the time you plan to create children and plus may be more children friendly druing their tiem from 0-5 years..

Both items are top reasons for hiring on most java developers resumes..


For how to pick a project look at what in the development world interests you and match that up with some business market data ie where are the next growth markets for business in the next 5 to 10 years and how will they use java technology..

Usually its as simple to get on open source projects by submitting a bug report with a patch or etc..

For example I am on almost 10 projects at the moment and got on each project by submitting a patch or improvement code..


certain open source projects pay by consulting fees..you submit code first to prove you are worthy than eventually you get in and paid.. JBoss has this model..and others have different models such as MySQL..

And yes you can mention projects on your resume! But do nto just put project treat it as an actual job description and describe what problems your code contributions solved!

For example, I reccently submitted a patch to Antenna ANT tasks for J2ME which allows people to use the new Sun WTK22 beta with these ant tasks so that contribution goes on the resume as a job description of problems I solved with my code and why that is important to J2ME developers using this project/product..


There is alos foundatiosn that alos although low paying might as well be looked into..is there any non profits near you that use java code?

[Mark Herschberg]

Definately list open source or other projects--I would recommend doing so under "other work."

It's true that not all recruiters understand what that means, but you can explain it to them. Choose your words carefully, because they will interpret differently, "it's unpaid work" from "it's a global based distributed project on the internet." Both are factually correct.

How do they know you contributed? Ideally you would have an entire module you built so you could do a demo and say, "I made it do that." Also good is to own some area of it to which you have contributd significantly, so you now have a code sample you can provide to employers as evidence (and it's not uncommon for them to ask for code samples anyway.)

--Mark

[Rashmi Banthia]

Mark, Thanks for the tip about choosing the words carefully. I really like - "it's a global based distributed project on the internet."

-Rashmi

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Basudev Agrawal:
Just curious, for most companies, the developer is bound by a non-disclosure agreement and I dont think he/she can show any code from his/her previous project to the interviewer.

Then why does the interviewer expect you to produce sample code? Not sure if I am missing something.

Good question. I was just thinking about maybe doing an article on this as I wrote the earlier post. You are correct that most are under NDA. From what I've seen, the industry has a look-the-other-way policy on this. The NDA is really about not giving away secrets, including the code base. Many developers do bring in 2-5 classes from their current employer as a sample. Typically it's enough to demonstrate some general competancy, but usually doesn't show anything vital (e.g. no proprietary algorithms). While technically in violation of the NDA, most corporations look the other way.

--Mark

[Tina Desai]

Originally posted by Fred Grott:

I think you would be better served..

-Join a project either closed or open and make sure to keep details on yoru contributions

Fred what do you mean by this. Sorry I did not get how can one join a closed prject. Do you mean join an Open source project?

Manish, I really liked your ideas. I always wanted to do something but being a perfectionist, I did not start at all till I landed on something 'good enough' to do. Result being I did not start anything at all!

Im really inetrested in trying it out. Can you share any material you know on 'how to make ones own website'? I am searching on web and trying things on my own. If you have some tips/suggestions/free website hosting allowed sites please let me know.

Regards,
Tina

[Manish Hatwalne]

Originally posted by Tina Desai:


Manish, I really liked your ideas. I always wanted to do something but being a perfectionist, I did not start at all till I landed on something 'good enough' to do. Result being I did not start anything at all!

Im really inetrested in trying it out. Can you share any material you know on 'how to make ones own website'? I am searching on web and trying things on my own. If you have some tips/suggestions/free website hosting allowed sites please let me know.

Regards,
Tina

Sorry for not replying earlier, but I have been rather busy these days working day n night trying to get remote live server up and runnning. Tough job!!!

Anyways, there's nothing complicated in making your own basic website. Few reliable free hosts are -
(1) Geocities.com - basic HTML stuff, nohing else but offers 15 MB for free.
(2) brinkster.com - 30 MB free, ASP/JScript support with connectionless DSN for MS Access DB.
(3) myjavaserver.com - 5 MB free, but the only free java hosting service I am aware of.

Get yourself 1st page (free), read up a bit on JavaScript/CSS and start experimenting on our iown. STAY away from WYSIWYG HTML tools like FrontPage etc. You can have a look at this for more resources -

http://www.geocities.com/technofundo/tech/links/web.html
http://www.geocities.com/technofundo/tech/links/javascript.html
http://www.geocities.com/technofundo/tech/links/tools.html

If you need help regarding any specific suff, drop me a mail (mail ID in your PM) or post message here in JavaScript/HTML forum.

Good luck!

- Manish
[ August 26, 2004: Message edited by: Manish Hatwalne ]

[Tina Desai]

Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:


Sorry for not replying earlier, but I have been rather busy these days working day n night trying to get remote live server up and runnning. Tough job!!!

No worries!

Thanks a lot for your help. I also noted your PM. It's real great to have a helping hand like you.

A few days before I did take a look at technofundo.com I too am a big fan of Gulam Ali!

Regards,
Tina

[Manish Hatwalne]

technofundo.com is not my domain anyumore. Somebody stole it long ago!!!

Eversince I am just having this free site on geocities.com.

- Manish

[Tina Desai]

I know Manish! I read it in 'history' section. I checked the one on geocities.com
There it is also mentioned that technofundoo is re-lauched. I did visit the site. But found something diff.

Tina