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H-1B visa limit for 2005 already reached

 
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interesting news from CNET News.com

The cap of 65,000 new H-1B visas for the fiscal year that began Friday has already been reached, CNET News.com has learned.

http://news.com.com/H-1B+visa+limit+for+2005+already+reached/2100-1022_3-5392917.html?tag=nefd.top
 
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Hi all !

The cap of 65,000 new H-1B visas for the fiscal year that began Friday has already been reached, CNET News.com has learned.

I would like to thank you in particular Kripal, I would have been sorry to miss such news, although I believe this will raise a huge and critical debate about future of IT industry in US so it couldn't be missed.
This news simply perfectly describes total madness of present situation, 65.000 H1B visas filled in 24 hours shows an overwhelming huge need for them, but they will be unavailable for one whole year leaving serious employers totally helpless about their need of unavailable qualified people. So employers will have either to cheat for another visa opportunity (GC / L) or to train presently unemployed US IT professionnals, but IMHO this is no answer at all : cheating with law always leads to trouble one day or another, and it takes many years to train a basic programmer into a software architect or alike, mainly because no one will pay him for training long as so many immediately productive although less qualified workers are so widely available.

I was already deeply persuaded US visa system has become totally inadapted to present economical situation, because H1B has been widely used to hire poorly qualified people with much lower wages, while it was supposed to find highly qualified people for vacant positions with same wages level. Only Sun if I remember well admitted it, but almost all others surely did in the internet bubble era. Presently GC & L visas are used instead to compensate but surely with a high level of cheating too. Some workaround is being discussed about fresh students receiving H1B out of quota, but this a crappy solution which will simply make debutant unemployment tougher and higher.

Main complains about H1B is that after some years aliens get back home, having gained much valuable experience for their native countries, being paid by US companies for better outsourcing later thanks to their US contacts and knowledge of US IT market. This is not mandatory bad news for if aliens get richer they will be more able to buy US goods while US needs exporting overseas with its saturated internal market where customers replace used goods but don't buy for they are already over-equipped.

But the real trouble is much deeper : US IT industry doesn't pay well (except for defense) although it is necessary to country's richness, compared to health or legal industry. Surgeons and lawyers earn much more money than IT professionnals while latest profession is (IMHO) much more demanding and difficult, so all US students want to become lawyers or surgeons for earning much more, despising IT industry, which is very bad news for US whealth future especially if skilled aliens can no longer legally be recruited to compensate.

Anyway this can be good news if USA realises recruitment of highly qualified aliens must change. H1B has become unmanagable and ridiculous, L visa legally makes one preliminary year working outside USA mandatory, an eternity for such a fast moving market, and GC is legally for an awfully tiny number of overskilled people totally unable to provide the amount of highly qualified staff needed. IMHO a real immigrant visa for really qualified people decided to create their own company so jobs in US simply doesn't exist. As long as this situation prevails, US will remain hugest market but won't be a leader any longer in IT field (for example leader companies for strategical JDO & ERP fields are french & german respectively, not US companies).

Best regards.
 
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So employers will have either to cheat for another visa opportunity (GC / L) or to train presently unemployed US IT professionnals, but IMHO this is no answer at all : cheating with law always leads to trouble one day or another, and it takes many years to train a basic programmer into a software architect or alike, mainly because no one will pay him for training long as so many immediately productive although less qualified workers are so widely available.


Thanks, Eric, for making my case. Only when the H1B visa route is closed will US companies retrain unemployed US workers.

Based on my own extensive experience, it doesn't take years for a good programmer to become thoroughly conversant in a new technology. A senior CICS/COBOL/IDMS architect will soon become a senior j2ee/struts/SQL architect if given the chance. The software continually evolves but the basic principles of designing enterprise-level systems are the same.

The real issue is a combination of age discrimination and an unwillingness to tolerate any learning curve at all when fully experienced people are available.

leader companies for strategical JDO & ERP fields are french & german respectively, not US companies


That's good news for everyone. I hope you have a successful career as part of that.
 
Eric Lemaitre
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Hi all !

Thanks, Eric, for making my case. Only when the H1B visa route is closed will US companies retrain unemployed US workers.

Please note that I am not for H1B elimination, as long as it is really used as expected :
_ hire alien IT only for vacant job positions which native US cannot fullfill.
_ no crappy wages but mandatory market average so as to bust out cheap labour.
_ real checking of alien skills for really qualified ones.

Nationalism and protectionism always have lead to catastrophies, especially in Europe, so remaining open to alien skills an even outsourcing somewhat so that poorer countries can become US clients too is not an issue, as long as competition remains fair. Unfair concurrency together with badly tailored US immigration laws totally inadapted to present labor situation are present main issues IMHO.

The real issue is a combination of age discrimination and an unwillingness to tolerate any learning curve at all when fully experienced people are available.

Classical issue for probably all worldwide workers, in France too we have at least 2 million unemployed but nearly one million of vacant jobs impossible to fullfill because of lack of qualifications (and stupid unemployement compensation almost as high as wages, so how could people work if they are paid as much unemployed as when they work ?).

[b]quote:leader companies for strategical JDO & ERP fields are french & german respectively, not US companies.
That's good news for everyone. I hope you have a successful career as part of that.[b]

One couldn't say that, I am seriously wondering emigrating to USA so as to build a real career for I am (just my humble personnal opinion) fed up with France. But if you check my certifications below I hope you will estimate I won't steal any US job for such skills seem really lacking in US, so I should be a competitor soon, but a fair one.

Best regards.
 
Mike Gershman
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if you check my certifications below I hope you will estimate I won't steal any US job for such skills seem really lacking in US


You'll find that your certifications don't mean much in the US job market without years of paid experience in the exact same software the employer is using. With the H-1B route closed, US employers will have to do what they did in the past - hire experienced US programmers with a book knowledge (certification) of the new software and let them acquire practical experience on the job.
 
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H-1B visa limit for 2005 already reached



Does it mean that if a guy decide to go USA on H1B now cannot go until 2006?
Does USA opens the H1B quota in Oct once in a year?
 
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Oh my God ,
I didn't knew that people are so desprate to go to US.
 
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Originally posted by Prakash Dwivedi:
Oh my God ,
I didn't knew that people are so desprate to go to US.



Prakash,
How many times have you been to US?
 
Prakash Dwivedi
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Prakash,
How many times have you been to US?



Not even once, i am happy to be in India, and have to plans to relocate
[ October 04, 2004: Message edited by: Prakash Dwivedi ]
 
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Thanks, Eric, for making my case. Only when the H1B visa route is closed will US companies retrain unemployed US workers.



Well said.
Europe has in the past allowed massive numbers of foreign workers to come in in almost limitless numbers which caused massive unemployment and over time enormous racial tension as well.
Of course H-1B works slightly better as it forces the visum holder to leave the country after a set period (which the European system foolishly did not) but still limitless entry of foreigners into the jobmarket has disastrous consequences for employment of natives.

With many jobs still disappearing from the US IT industry to SE Asia there should be no need AT ALL for longterm work permits for foreign IT workers for the US. There's a massive pool of unemployed natives in the US more than willing to work and learn new skills if required (or just for learning's sake). But unless employers can't get cheap foreign labour they'll not hire the more expensive locals unless the US government steps in with subsidies for retraining unemployed on the job (something that is now happening in Europe to some extent, but for political correctness is effectively limited to women and ethnic minorities).
 
Mike Gershman
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But unless employers can't get cheap foreign labour they'll not hire the more expensive locals unless the US government steps in with subsidies for retraining unemployed on the job


Retraining alone is no answer. US employers are requiring several years of paid j2ee experience, not just knowledge and certification. These same companies just require a good degree in their Asian branches. After a few years, the Asian employees have the experience in new technologies required for US jobs.

As for retraining existing employees, many companies are dumping their middle-aged legacy programmers rather than employ a j2ee newbie at a senior programmer salary.

Subsidized training is not the answer. Many programmers learn j2ee on their own and get certified at their own expense, but they can't manufacture paid j2ee experience. There is no substitute for restricting H-1B and similar visas to jobs that can't be filled by US people even with a reasonable learning curve, if there are such jobs.
[ October 05, 2004: Message edited by: Mike Gershman ]
 
Kripal Singh
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Unavailability of visa for one year may start a new debate, as highly educated and talented foreign student graduating in US will have no other option but to leave the country when their student visa expires .
 
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As a immigrant(presently green card holder), I would rather see local hiring pickup than a increase in H1 quota.

When times are green, I can understand 190000 H1's per year. When the locals are having tough times(people with knowledge and can do J2EE and related stuff) there is no point in any debate on H1 quota issues.

The multi-nationals(like Amdocs, wipro, infosys) always go with the loophole of L1 visa to fulfill some of their requirement. But that also needs to be tightened by the US governments. It should not be a loop hole that will take away the livelyhood of local programmers.
 
Eric Lemaitre
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Hi Kripal !

Unavailability of visa for one year may start a new debate, as highly educated and talented foreign student graduating in US will have no other option but to leave the country when their student visa expires .

Despite you are philosophically right for the idea itself, I believe you are tehnically wrong on this point, students are no real issue in such a case. Fresh students in US have awfully hard times to enter real job world because only practical paid years of job experience matter for US employers right now, especially with so many IT people available. And of course it is even harder for aliens even with perfectly legal H1B, so they will practically all get back home anyway rather than staying unemployed for many mounths, perhaps years, no one knows when this situation will end. It looks like with internet bubble huge alien crowds have been given a H1B, so it will probably take the whole of a legal H1B period to get fixed, so 3 years at minimum, probably more because of intermediate renewals.

This is anyway surely an excellent thing whatever for future despite present hard times, after all world economic system is artificially totally unballanced in favor of US, so if enterpreners remain at home to make it richer because US door is closed while US gets poorer this will greatly improve world economic stability. Present economic unbalance means artificially rich but in fact over in debts americans while rest of the world economic stability is totally dependant of theirs, which is bad for all. According to me present US labour visa system has become totally stupid for totally out of phase with present situation. As they are widely used now in real life, H1B is for hiring cheap slaves for saving profits at the loss of lower US IT jobs, GC is for a tiny handful of privileged able to pay some 4.000 $ to lawyers, and quota-less L is the only sensible remaining way for companies to hire qualified aliens pretending he has working for them for one year (but who checks ?). So whole US alien labour visa system has become a mess and must change to be in favor of US again, it now plays against native US while it was designed to be in their favor.

Americans must face it, adapted labor visas for qualified aliens simply do not exist any longer in practice. This is a real threat for money attracts money, US investors need talentuous aliens for making profits, aliens being fairly rewarded for it, but if they can't come for legal issues there will be neither reward nor profit for anybody. Since a good deal of time corporations, particulary as WallMart did, favourish profits at any price even against US native employment. This is true right now of almost all US companies, profits remain high while investments have collapsed, there is much money to invest but no new project valuable enough to invest in. Wealth is useless and decreasing in such a situation if it lasts too long.

The initiatives I think about for fixing present situation are :
_ get rid of over-numerous unquallified H1B presently in US but giving them future priority for a next "real" visa opportunity if need occurs and they have the skills.
_ training skill upgrade plan for over-numerous IT US natives unemployed with internet bubble burstout with at least minimal but fix wages and real evaluation afterwards.
_ new visa with real government control for really quallified aliens applying for jobs US natives can't fullfill even after training skill upgrade, or potential enterpreners.

Of course I am an alien and this is simply my opinion, but present economical situation makes me tink even US is in a very bad situation right now and must react to avoid many hazards : oil price is very bad for US economics and can rise much more and last very long, US techological suppremacy has globally vanished against alien countries except in military field, US foreign deficit is abyssal, people are over in debts like the wole country because of war effort, and everyone agrees if asian countries don't support U.S $ any longer it will run into bankrupt, like rest of the world soon after. So it is of the interest of US to carry on attracting enterpreners so as to keep its head above water.

Best regards.
 
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What seems silliest about this is that so many companies say they are not hiring and yet the H1-B quota is filled within a day of re-opening. Something is wrong with this picture.

I guess the real frustration is I keep reading how the economy is having trouble recovering, but there is still so much uncertainty out there. It's not like companies don't have projects they want to pursue, they're just not spending the money. This hurts everyone though. If your customers aren't sure they have jobs tomorrow, it's going to make it tougher to get their money. Hiring outside the US when so many natives are looking for work seems to defeat the purpose. Yet while companies are complaining that profits are down, execs are still collecting huge bonuses. Does this make any sense?

In general I support the H1-B program and what it is supposed to function for. It is being blatantly abused, which is going to do damage in the long run. Eventually it will be changed if it is routinely abused, because that is how government operates. You can exploit it now, but what really stinks is that the people who will pay the price for it are going to be prospective immigrants.

In reality, we should have enough jobs that there is a real demand for H1-B's. The demand only exists because the large corporations won't take a chance and get back to business. They're still moving along with the same overly-cautious mentality we've seen since post 9/11.
 
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Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:

US investors need talentuous aliens for making profits, aliens being fairly rewarded for it, The initiatives I think about for fixing present situation are :
new visa with real government control for really quallified aliens applying for jobs US natives can't fullfill even after training skill upgrade, or potential enterpreners.


When the person can be called talented? so that nobody can doubt about alien's talents?If you are an investor, what criteria will you apply to choose talented aliens?If you apply criteria X,its not necessary that talent can be measured only by X.So your selection of aliens can be doubted.
 
Jeroen Wenting
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Originally posted by Mike Gershman:

Retraining alone is no answer. US employers are requiring several years of paid j2ee experience, not just knowledge and certification. These same companies just require a good degree in their Asian branches. After a few years, the Asian employees have the experience in new technologies required for US jobs.

As for retraining existing employees, many companies are dumping their middle-aged legacy programmers rather than employ a j2ee newbie at a senior programmer salary.

Subsidized training is not the answer. Many programmers learn j2ee on their own and get certified at their own expense, but they can't manufacture paid j2ee experience. There is no substitute for restricting H-1B and similar visas to jobs that can't be filled by US people even with a reasonable learning curve, if there are such jobs.



The answer then is to change US corporate culture, not to allow more foreigners into the country.

If US companies can't find people at home with the 10 years experience in a tech that's only existed for 2 years and certifications that haven't even been launched yet AND they can't import that labour either maybe then they'll start thinking that training people themselves might be the way to go.

The answer to rising unemployment is NEVER to allow more foreign labour...
 
Jeroen Wenting
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Originally posted by Arjun Shastry:

When the person can be called talented? so that nobody can doubt about alien's talents?If you are an investor, what criteria will you apply to choose talented aliens?If you apply criteria X,its not necessary that talent can be measured only by X.So your selection of aliens can be doubted.



I think he's claiming that ONLY non-US people have any talent at all...
 
Eric Lemaitre
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Hi Arjun !

When the person can be called talented? so that nobody can doubt about alien's talents ? If you are an investor, what criteria will you apply to choose talented aliens?If you apply criteria X,its not necessary that talent can be measured only by X.So your selection of aliens can be doubted.

You are totally right, I said this ideal had to be reached, but I don't know how. There simply is no metric at all for estimating gifted people, they try and either success or fail and can success despite a poor product as well as fail despite a good one. Only market decides of it. Of course selection of aliens can be doubted, but it must be done with sensible ways, although I don't know how. But better unreliable selection than none, process will enhance with time.

Best regards.
 
Arjun Shastry
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How about alien's total number of research papers published in journals in a field in which investor is interested ?
Contribution to research can never be doubted by anybody unless research paper is authored by 50 people.
[ October 06, 2004: Message edited by: Arjun Shastry ]
 
Eric Lemaitre
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Hi Jeroen !

I think he's claiming that ONLY non-US people have any talent at all...

I believe no, you are wrong on this one, he's rather claiming innovation right now comes from non-US people, and I totally agree with him.
Inside a company either you don't produce but innovate for future, or you produce for present needs without innovating, and you can play both roles. Right now there no innovation at all form US people except in the military field. In IT industry right now with their greed for profits companies only exploit their employees for producing and don't let them take time for training, with so many people available they can afford looking for exact skills match for job positions for immediate producing, but this process hampers innovation.

Right now only military field have the serenity and credits to innovate, whole remain of IT industry must only produce because of hard times. This is why detecting potential alien enterpreners is important for US to keep on innovating for future jobs, for present native US won't for some years as long as they can be so easily replaced by numerous cheaper ones.

Please remark there is no contempt about anybody, native US or alien, when you job is so uncertain you take no chances, this is all, so innovation from native US is doomed right now unless system changes.
If you have doubts, look for most innovative technologies right now and check whether an US company is a leader for it, you will see that in most cases leader is either an alien company or branch/subsidiary in US of an alien one, mostly european.

Best regards.
 
Arjun Shastry
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Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

I think he's claiming that ONLY non-US people have any talent at all...


HE means who?me or Eric? I am not claiming what you have concluded.
 
Eric Lemaitre
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Hi Jeroen !

The answer to rising unemployment is NEVER to allow more foreign labour...

Although your post is right and sensible, the conclusion is totally excessive and silly.
The answer to rising unemployment is allowing (with time and financial compensation considerations) native US to train so as to change or upgrade their skills, and by preference to employ them rather than aliens, but not closing the doors whatever to aliens.

In France we have about 2 million people unemployed but 1 million jobs vacant because of lack of quallified people. If no people learn skills for these vacant jobs (this is France's stupid system's fault) and no alien is allowed to fullfill them, these jobs remain vacant and economy is simply worse. Any job remaining vacant is bad for local economy, it must be filled first with a native if possible or with a quallified alien if not. For some jobs demand for such great skills that no native will fullfill them even with skills upgrade, so in this case alien workers is the only solution for economy's sake.

Best regards.
 
Jeroen Wenting
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Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi Jeroen !

I think he's claiming that ONLY non-US people have any talent at all...

I believe no, you are wrong on this one, he's rather claiming innovation right now comes from non-US people, and I totally agree with him.
Inside a company either you don't produce but innovate for future, or you produce for present needs without innovating, and you can play both roles. Right now there no innovation at all form US people except in the military field. In IT industry right now with their greed for profits companies only exploit their employees for producing and don't let them take time for training, with so many people available they can afford looking for exact skills match for job positions for immediate producing, but this process hampers innovation.



And in your logic that's the fault of the employees and just replacing them with foreigners will suddenly cause massive innovation.
Simply wrong, as those foreigners will be doing the exact same work Americans would otherwise be performing.

I agree innovation is at a low in the US, but that's no fault of the American IT worker but indeed of shortsighted policies in US corporations (driven by a system where the shortterm monetary profits are the only indication of a company's success, a system in which investment in longterm sustainability is discouraged).
 
Eric Lemaitre
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Hi Jeroen !

And in your logic that's the fault of the employees and just replacing them with foreigners will suddenly cause massive innovation.
Simply wrong, as those foreigners will be doing the exact same work Americans would otherwise be performing.


No, if you followed my posts I didn't promote a replacement of native by aliens but placement of aliens for positions unfullfiled by natives, this is a place operation no replace. Native US SHOULD be used unless they can't provide the skills, so leaving the place to aliens rather than leaving job vacant.
At begin you are right, foreigners will be doing the exact same work as Americans, simply because you integrate a new nation through work and nothing else, so this is mandatory initial step.
But I am convinced this is a social fact, foreigners are more innovative than native because for a while they have enthousiasm of newcommers, eagerness to succeed in their new country, new ideas different from natives, and for a great part unconciousness which makes them dare all.
A common saying (from Churchill I believe) especially true about anglo-saxon people is "one had allways said it was impossible to achieve, untill arrived someone who didn't know". Newcomers are great innovation makers in their new country if their education is high enough.

I agree innovation is at a low in the US, but that's no fault of the American IT worker but indeed of shortsighted policies in US corporations (driven by a system where the shortterm monetary profits are the only indication of a company's success, a system in which investment in longterm sustainability is discouraged).

I totally agree with you.

Best regards.
 
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