Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
Mark Herschberg, author of The Career Toolkit
https://www.thecareertoolkitbook.com/
Originally posted by Warren Dew:
Rishi Ugersain Chopra:
Despite the average salary for graduates in my major being around $60k/yr. my offer from Accenture consulting was for $40k/yr. and my offer from CIS Data Systems (small local company) is $40k/yr. with 3 months being on a contract/trial basis.
Is the $60k/yr for other new graduates in your major, or for everyone who has ever graduated from your major?
Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
$60k is not a reasonable estimate of the "market rate" in this environment - $40k actually sounds much closer.
BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
Often the most important part of the news is what they didn't tell.
Originally posted by Rishi Ugersain Chopra:
That data represents the average starting salary of new employees of the same major over the last 4 years.
42
Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
I don't know about your area but over here �20k would be a handsome starting salary. $60k (3 times as much) for a fresh graduate seems excessive to me. Such high starting salaries were the initial reason companies started offshoring development...
Often the most important part of the news is what they didn't tell.
Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
Originally posted by Tim Holloway:
�20k? Now that's depressing. grads were being offered $25-30 in the late '80's around here, long before the bubble. Unless the $/� exchange rate has slid further than I realized, that means that they'd be worse off now than they were 20 years ago.
42
Originally posted by Warren Dew:
I think the key statistic from the Berkeley data is this: in 2000, 73% of the graduates got jobs, and only 8% were looking but hadn't got one; in 2003, only 41% got jobs, and 26% were looking but hadn't got one. And I have to believe that some who looked for jobs and didn't get them, instead didn't turn in the survey (the response rate dropped from 56% to 46%) or went to grad school or "other endeavors" instead (went from 12% to 26%). So I think the 2003 salaries listed are inflated, because Berkeley isn't averaging in the zero salaries of people who don't have jobs.
To put it another way, if you interpolate/extrapolate the median salary for the 81% actually looking for jobs in 2000, along with the 67% actually looking in 2003, you get something like the following:
2000: $61,241 -- inflated by bubble
2003: $44,796 -- deflated by burst
If you look at all respondents, only 45% in 2003 have jobs, so the median is unemployed, or maybe living on a graduate school stipend - in either case far less than $45k. $60k is not a reasonable estimate of the "market rate" in this environment - $40k actually sounds much closer.
I would add a couple of things:
The formatting and layout of your resume seems good. However, when I read it, it seems devoid of actual Java coding - JSP doesn't really count. Your resume actually looks stronger on the database side. If you truly love programming in Java, I'd recommend spending some time writing Java programs, even if for free - join an open source project, or find a good cause and start one yourself, or even just work on something you'd enjoy doing as a private project.
The other thing I would recommend is leaving the customer support work for the work with CIS. At least you'll be programming and gaining experience with working with real code in a production environment, even if it's not in your favorite language. And since it's a contract position, you needn't feel guilty about leaving in six months or a year if you get a better offer.
(And if any of CIS's clients get successful enough that they need to move to something more robust than PHP/MySQL, you'll be in a good position to help them move to Java/Oracle.)[/QB]
Originally posted by Bob Tai:
I agree w/ Warren's way of explaining the data.
Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
Originally posted by Rishi Ugersain Chopra:
My understanding is that BCS is not outsourcing; since acquiring PriceWaterhouseCoopers they have been on a tear, and this is the first year that they are hiring on US Campuses since 2000.
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:
You are wrong with respect to BCS not outsourcing. They don't give work to other firms. They do have setup big campus near Delhi, India. And they did offer to many mid-management employees to relocate to India. They are hiring like crazy in India(much more in number compared to US hiring)
Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:
You are wrong with respect to BCS not outsourcing.
Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
Originally posted by Rishi Ugersain Chopra:
My comments were pertaining to their domestic operations.
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:
Domestic operations are interconnected with work done for same project in other countries right!! So, that will have major impact on local hiring practises.
Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
Originally posted by Rishi Ugersain Chopra:
Yes and no. IBM BCS has lots of business in Inida as well. Many of the domestic projects require US Citizens to be on-site at the client's location and consist of duties that cannot be delegated to IBM BCS in India.
The comments the IBM BCS recruiters made (they were all PriceWaterhouseCoopers employees who were acquired along with PWC) was that IBM BCS had not been hiring on US campuses since 1999.
I think you can speculate/draw your own conclusions as to why BCS was not hiring on US campuses, though I think this has more to do with US domestic demand for IBM consulting services than any specific loss of work to Indian counterparts...
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:
Don't say "MANY" projects. Almost all my friends who work for BCS don't work in the above setup u are mentioning. They have both development in US and India going on for almost all their projects. So I don't believe in the MANY part of ur argument.
Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
Originally posted by Rishi Ugersain Chopra:
The BCS employees in the US rarely (if ever) work in their home office. They spend Monday through Thursday at the client site almost as a rule.
You're right; I shouldn't say "MANY" when I mean "ALL". While I'm sure IBM has plenty of work in India, if you're hired by BCS in the US you can expect to be at a client site. My impression is that the work that you are saying goes on for US projects in India is raw development work; all consulting companies have R&D and Development groups that focus on creating solutions that can be deployed and customized for clients. The consultants here in the US work on site at the customer either implementing solutions or designing their implementation. BCS here in The States WILL NOT hire a developer out of college in a strict R&D or Development capacity.
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:
I should say no,no,no.
Some of local BCS employees(like my friend based out of Houston) works from home 50% of the time. Remaining time he spends on the customer site. In case of a manager I know from Detroit, she spends 80% from home, leading a big client facing time. She spends only 20% at customer. Both these candidates have lot of customer specific customizations done in India(it is sure not R&D or development of a core product as such).
Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
Originally posted by Tim Holloway:
�20k? Now that's depressing. grads were being offered $25-30 in the late '80's around here, long before the bubble. Unless the $/� exchange rate has slid further than I realized, that means that they'd be worse off now than they were 20 years ago.
Originally posted by Don Stadler:
To Rishi - I'd check for CIS and see what kind of work they do and what they would have you do. If you like it take that one. It's probably useless to do that with Accenture. The big consultantcies are factories. You may get something you like, you may not. Transfers are more rare than they imply.
Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
Actually my Big 5 background was with the UK part of an outfit now calling itself Bearing Point in the US. KPMG. Breaking Point is more like it....
[/QB]
Rishi Chopra
www.rishichopra.org
Originally posted by Rishi Ugersain Chopra:
See my other post with statistics regarding decline of total IT and Software Engineering jobs.
BTW, the mean number I mentioned was only $2k more than the mean for 2003. Certainly there are less respondents and fewer graduates with jobs, but this is naturally a result of market conditions.
I think the reason the average is still high is that quality large companies are still paying well. The consulting companies and small companies don't offer much, but some of the perrenial UC Berkeley favorites (Amazon, IBM, Microsoft) still pay well.
I also don't think the starting salaries were a major contributing factor to the bubble; a lot of the jobs that disappeared were for people who developing the same thing in parallel at multiple places (e.g. 5 .coms creating groupware). Now that companies like Yahoo offer free hosted services, who needs eGroups?
Originally posted by shay Aluko:
My advice to you is to "begin with the end in mind"--where do you see yourself in five years , tem years etc. I have been there and I have worked in biggest companies out there. Staking your career on Java or some transient technology is a mistake.I my honest opinion, you are looking to stake your career on something that's a commodity. You would have been better off taking the time to get a some industry specific education like a
an degree finance/accounting/healthcare etc than pounding the pavement to get a job that is in danger of being offshored.
just my $.02
Ron