Mike Gershman's Q

[Homer Phillips]

I've copied the following a post that originates with today's date. I don't want VAMSING to accidentally delete my reply...

originally posted by - VAMSING KRIS

Hi Dudes ,
I got my h1b approved & visa stamped Oct 2004. I am planning to start, Please advice me the correct period( When can I start) I heard that during year end there wont be more openings in USA due to Christmas & New Year Holidays . I need to search job once I land there. I have got 6 Years of IT Experience and I have couple of Java certifications in my hand (SCBCD,SCJP etc).
I need your valuable suggestions

Thanks & Regards
Vamsing

originally posted by Mike Gershman

How do you get an H1B visa without a job?

VAMSING's sponsor will bring him to US and put him up in temporary lodging. When he or they find a client, he starts to work as a contractor.

With six years of experience, he/she is probably about 28 and a very attractive prospect. Chances are he/she is single and able to relocate anywhere in US. With little or no family in US, he/she probably won't mind working long hours.

Vamsing's contracting company is probably collecting a nice markup. So the client can transfer Vamsing's visa if the client likes Vamsing. Vamsing probably will get a hike at that time.

While the US prohibits employers from asking certain discriminatory questions, other countries do not. The same is true for medical examinations. And though US companies cannot ask, I don't believe it's illegal for contractor/Vamsing to volunteer the information.

Pretty much it's a winning situation for nearly everybody. Vamsing gets to work in US. Contracting company makes good money on the deal. Client company gets great talent at a great price with benefit of Vamsing working under H1-B status.

[Arjun Shastry]

{
VAMSING's sponsor will bring him to US and put him up in temporary lodging. When he or they find a client, he starts to work as a contractor.
}
To my knowledge,this was a common way, people on H1-B used to start their work in USA.Very few people used to give interviews from here as clients used to insist on face to face communication.
[ November 17, 2004: Message edited by: Arjun Shastry ]

[Jay Shin]

To my knowledge,this was a common way, people on H1-B used to start their work in USA

This is absolutely illegal.

Before an alien gets approved for H-1B, his employer must file the Labor Condition Application which includes the wage for the H-1B worker. The employer must continuously pay for the minimum number of hours specified in the petition.

[Homer Phillips]

This is absolutely illegal.

In the long run we'll all benefit from cheaper software. It's in the interest of the country as a whole.

[Mike Gershman]

I'm missing something.

If he works for a consulting company, they would be finding him an assignment. But the post says that the employee himself will be job-hunting.

Either the consulting company sends him over here and tells him to find himself a job and give them a cut, or he just pays a company to file the paperwork and go away, leaving him to find his own assignments and keep all the money, or else he plans on ditching the consulting company and transferring his H1B visa as soon as he gets here.

Whether or not this is technically legal, it certainly is not how the H1B program was intended to operate.

Does anyone think the US government understands how this is working?

Personally, I think these guys may be killing the golden goose.

[Homer Phillips]

If he works for a consulting company, they would be finding him an assignment. But the post says that the employee himself will be job-hunting.

When he gets to to the US, I hope it's a he, he can be a big help in the search process. Requistions have so many buzz words and acronmyns that they are almost unreadable.

Historically when candidates have been lodged, they about went stir crazy. They don't appreciate Oprah, soap operas or Big Buck Hunting. It cuts down on the overhead and pay-per-view-charges, too.
[ November 17, 2004: Message edited by: Homer Phillips ]

[Homer Phillips]

Does anyone think the US government understands how this is working?

They created the process and I am sure they will tell you it's not Frankenstein's monster.

Examination of the impact on social security and medicare yields very positive side effects. When an H1-B comes to the US and serves his six years, he has to still pay the payroll taxes, yet he's not eligible for any benefits. By pushing the native population into lower paying positions, the entitlement liabilities are further reduced.

When the employees return to their home countries, American values are taken with them. They bring great cultural enrichment to the US.

These people are the best and the brightest the world has to offer. They come from countries where math and science skills are taken seriously.

Many of them have PhDs. Most Americans know or learn that getting a PhD reduces ones lifetime earnings. The foreign nationals do it anyway!

It's for the good of the country as a whole. I cannot begin to tell you how many companies have found the H1-B program to be very enriching.

[Jay Shin]

Does anyone think the US government understands how this is working?

There are too many illegal aliens in the U.S. right now, it's practically impossible to crack down every one of them. I think the U.S government decided to just live with them.

[Jay Shin]

In the long run we'll all benefit from cheaper software. It's in the interest of the country as a whole.

True. But only when things are done "legally".

I believe that violating the laws (regardless of severity) or exploiting the flaws in the system will do more harms than goods in the very long run.

[Jay Shin]

Originally posted by Homer Phillips:

These people are the best and the brightest the world has to offer. They come from countries where math and science skills are taken seriously.

It's for the good of the country as a whole. I cannot begin to tell you how many companies have found the H1-B program to be very enriching.

I absolutely agree with you on this. This is what the H-1B program was "originally" meant to be.

[Homer Phillips]

This is what the H-1B program was "originally" meant to be. /QUOTE]

I think this was the Orwellianly stated purpose.

[VAMSING KRIS]

Hi Good to c some response from u guys. i GOT H1b Through One Consulting Company. They Sponsored for me. They informed me that once I land there they will show their clients I need to face interview. I need your suggestions abt the period (when can I start ), I heard that during year end there wont be more openings in USA due to Christmas & New Year Holidays . I need to search job once I land there. I have got 6 Years of IT Experience and I have couple of Java certifications in my hand (SCBCD,SCJP etc).
I need your valuable suggestions

Thanks & Regards
Vamsing

[Jayesh Lalwani]

Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
I'm missing something.

If he works for a consulting company, they would be finding him an assignment. But the post says that the employee himself will be job-hunting.

Either the consulting company sends him over here and tells him to find himself a job and give them a cut, or he just pays a company to file the paperwork and go away, leaving him to find his own assignments and keep all the money, or else he plans on ditching the consulting company and transferring his H1B visa as soon as he gets here.

Whether or not this is technically legal, it certainly is not how the H1B program was intended to operate.

Does anyone think the US government understands how this is working?

Personally, I think these guys may be killing the golden goose.

Since it takes a long time for the H1B visa to be approved, and most clients are not ready to wait that long, many consulting companies anticipate their client's needs and start employing people from outside before there is an actual need. By the time the H1B's are approved, they have 5-10 interviews lined up for the employees. The employee is told that s/he will be expected to appear in interviews (which many people translate to "look for a job"). As long as the consulting company is paying the employee while s/he is on bench, this is absolutely legal

Although some consulting companies do misuse the law, and sponsor H1B's for a fee without paying the employee or sending him on interviews. Companies like these should be reported for immigiration fraud. Also, I wouldnt recommend any foreign worker to take employment with such a company because a) the company is clearly violating INS rules, and is running the risk of being closed down anytime, b) the worker will have no contacts that will help him look for a job and c) the worker will have to spend his own money supporting himself

[Jay Shin]

Companies like these should be reported for immigiration fraud.

c) the worker will have to spend his own money supporting himself

d) The illegal H-1B worker will be evicted from the U.S territory.

But as I mentioned earlier, the U.S governments are not actively cracking down on every illegal aliens.

So, in practice, they're most likely not to get caught unless someone else explicitly report them to the Department of Labor and INS (Immigration and Naturalization Service).

[Mike Gershman]

The process described in this thread does not sound like a US company that tried without success to hire US residents at prevailing wages and resorted to H1B's to fill a gap. These companies had no intention of hiring anyone from the US under any circumstances.

If a consulting company is paying an H1B holder to sit on the bench, that is an abuse of the law as anyone is qualified to sit on a bench.

I think the INS should require companies to post jobs on the net before they can use H1B workers. Also, they should be required to accept reasonable equivalents to paid experience, such as work for non-profits and work on open-source projects. Above all, they should be required to document all people submitting resumes, not just the ones invited for interviews. This would expose discrimination against US workers, particularly retrained legacy programmers and older people.

H1B's as presently used in IT are a mechanism for hiring bright young people from third world countries to do work for much less money, with far fewer benefits, and with amost no rights. There is no shortage of experienced programmers in the US and IT people have routinely learned the latest technologies and come up to speed in a few months. The skill shortage isn't just a myth, it's a lie.

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi Mike !

H1B's as presently used in IT are a mechanism for hiring bright young people from third world countries to do work for much less money, with far fewer benefits, and with amost no rights. There is no shortage of experienced programmers in the US and IT people have routinely learned the latest technologies and come up to speed in a few months. The skill shortage isn't just a myth, it's a lie.

I would totally agree all what you said, but ... do you see ANY kind of reaction agains obvious H1B abuses ?

There are everywhere in USA warnings and threats against illegal behaviors, but nowhere did I see any kind of strikeback against these illegal behaviors. We had many guys mainly indians lastly candidly posting on Javaranch forums some kinds of "I was hired as H1B without job, I received H1B and will attend interviews later, ...", and many posts alike obviously illegal. I have nothing against these guys, what is more they are obviously honest for 1) if they were foul they would remain discrete, 2) no indivual can get an H1B anyway on his own but only a foul company can do it, so their company is totally responsible, not them.

Despite all these obvious abuses did you hear of ANY retailation of ANY kind of ANY abuse by INS ? No, there never was, it is obviously totally safe to turn the law in US for H1B visa matters. This is very bad for US citizens, very bad too for honest H1B or candidates, but excellent for the foul companies which make much money by keeping the former unemployed and the latter poor with crap wages. INS must know, as everyone, but never does anything against it, or if it does no one ever hears about. So I don't see any reason for you whining against foul H1B, you should instead ask INS why they don't do anything because they MUST protect you against it.

Best regards.

[Homer Phillips]

So I don't see any reason for you whining against foul H1B, you should instead ask INS why they don't do anything because they MUST protect you against it.

It's not the INS to blame. It's the Department of Justice. One famous terrorist claimed the US government was immoral and corrupt. It's not hard case to make.

Read the testimony given before congress in the hearings on these issues and the facts are there. Congress was foretold the outcome of their actions.

[Jayesh Lalwani]

Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
The process described in this thread does not sound like a US company that tried without success to hire US residents at prevailing wages and resorted to H1B's to fill a gap. These companies had no intention of hiring anyone from the US under any circumstances.

If a consulting company is paying an H1B holder to sit on the bench, that is an abuse of the law as anyone is qualified to sit on a bench.

I think the INS should require companies to post jobs on the net before they can use H1B workers. Also, they should be required to accept reasonable equivalents to paid experience, such as work for non-profits and work on open-source projects. Above all, they should be required to document all people submitting resumes, not just the ones invited for interviews. This would expose discrimination against US workers, particularly retrained legacy programmers and older people.

If a company is hiring H1B workers and ignoring citizens, then they are, in essence, discriminating against Americans. If a consulting company doesnt advertise job positions in US, then they run the risk of running afoul of existing Equal Opportunity laws. INS doesnt need to enforce that because it's already enforced by US law.

H1B's as presently used in IT are a mechanism for hiring bright young people from third world countries to do work for much less money, with far fewer benefits, and with amost no rights. There is no shortage of experienced programmers in the US and IT people have routinely learned the latest technologies and come up to speed in a few months. The skill shortage isn't just a myth, it's a lie.

I'm sorry but you will have to back that up with data from reliable sources

[Mike Gershman]

If a company is hiring H1B workers and ignoring citizens, then they are, in essence, discriminating against Americans. If a consulting company doesnt advertise job positions in US, then they run the risk of running afoul of existing Equal Opportunity laws. INS doesnt need to enforce that because it's already enforced by US law.

If you look at the web sites, you'll see the jobs advertised for work in Asia with some "on-site opportunities". I haven't seen anyone explicitly posting US jobs for Asians. These companies aren't stupid.

The EEOC is not set up to deal in individual cases but with broad patterns of discrimination as measured by statistical reports. US employers stay under the radar by limiting even screening interviews to members of the demographic groups they wish to favor. There is no EEO reporting on resumes submitted but ignored, so these employers can say they hired a reasonable number of the few middle-aged applicants they interviewed.

The INS, on the other hand, deals in individual cases. If H1B applications by employers were posted on the INS web site (without worker names) and a US resident could apply saying "I, too, have a Masters Degree, have multiple Sun Java certifications, and have decades of programming experience to boot, the employer would have to explain to the INS why this person was unqualified but a 23 year old MS graduate with limited work experience was perfect for the job.

There is no shortage of experienced programmers in the US and IT people have routinely learned the latest technologies and come up to speed in a few months. The skill shortage isn't just a myth, it's a lie.

I'm sorry but you will have to back that up with data from reliable sources

I can firmly state from my own extensive experience as a systems manager that senior programmers routinely become productive in a new programming language or operating system in a month or two and fully proficient in 6-12 months. This was so routine that it wasn't even an issue until low H1B salaries provided an irresistable financial incentive for hiring employers to demand an impossibly perfect match between prior work experience and a particular project's software mix. In fact, when I was doing the initial interviews for my division, the managers I was helping complained if my questions were too technical and slighted the personal qualities considered far more important for success.

As for the legacy senior programmers denied employment, you can look at the posts here at the Saloon, talk to employment/consulting agencies, or look at IT job statistics. However, the legal burden of proof is on the H1B seekers, not the unemployed Americans. The only problem is enforcing the law as written.
[ November 22, 2004: Message edited by: Mike Gershman ]

[Inuka Vincit]

This is an ILLEGAL practice.

These are the people who taint the name, of bright and legitimate H1B workers. It is illegal for a company to sponsor an H1B worker and "bench" them. They have to show a paycheck stub. As a fellow H1B worker I am ashamed at my fellow foreign workers who abuse the system.

These contracting companies, start by falsifying documents for the H1B process. They falsify the pay amount, and generate false pay stubs to show the person is working. Of course on the flips side most of the time the workers aware of this and is paying a fee for getting an H1B, paying the taxes for the false paycheck stubs. It gets even worse, there are reports of some workers even falsifying their resumes. Some consulting companies withhold H1B documents and threaten of lawsuits and expulsion for workers who want to change companies. Most of the workers get no or minimal benefits.

In the end it is the foreign workers, and American workers who lose. American workers lose their jobs, and the foreign workers become indentured servants to these consulting companies or loseout from the quota. It only means that qualified, inteligent forign students lose out. I know so many very well qulified inteligent friends lose out(both american and forign) , while badly qulified worker drones(most of them anyways) take their place and quota.

I disagree with Homer, it doesn�t mean cheaper software it just means lots more profit for the ruthless companies involved. It is competition that brings down prices not cheap labour. If this were true brand name clothing companies would be passing along the savings they get from sweatshops in asia.

THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF THE H1B PROGRAM. I hope the new legislation and funding the INS gets is used towards prosecuting these people. They take away valuable visas, and opportunities to the deserving and qualified. Not only that they leave a very very bad mark on the reputation of foreigner workers, because many of these people lack proper qualifications(creative resumes).

The only people who I can think would be able to defend such devious practices are only those who take advantage of it. So which are you Homer, the devious slave trader, or the lowly H1B worker drone ?

report any illigal practices, and people invloved to:
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/osc/htm/contactus.htm

[ November 23, 2004: Message edited by: Inuka Vincit ]
[ November 23, 2004: Message edited by: Inuka Vincit ]

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi Inuka !

The only people who I can think would be able to defend such devious practices are only those who take advantage of it. So which are you Homer, the devious slave trader, or the lowly H1B worker drone ?

I totally agree with all you are saying, but please don't attack Homer, he is probably an honest soul who defends H1B as he thinks it should work. The point he is missing is that H1B has become totally prone to abuse, it is no longer a good tool to hire temporary alien workers, it has become a bad tool for hiring crap alien workers at low wages against US citizens' interest. Homer is clearly not responsible of this.

One guy told the geeks (IT workers in general) should organize and make their own lobby so as to make weight on K-Street decisions, certainly a good idea.

But let's go further, I believe H1B itself is simply no longer relevant for its purpose. A qualified IT worker simply CANNOT any longer immigrate to USA using H1B, only marriage or DV lottery are relevant now. So what could really replace H1B for needed alien workers ? GC extension ? Taking into account international certifications (almost all american ones) ? A worldwide yearly practical exam so as to validate qualified workers ?

Anyway something must change : whatever the reasons more and more US citizens lose jobs in profit of unqualified aliens imported by foul companies, or those who keep it see their wages more and more lowering, without any retailation by US government.

Best regards.

[Homer Phillips]

I disagree with Homer, it doesn�t mean cheaper software it just means lots more profit for the ruthless companies involved.

No, you and Homer agree completely.

In the end it is the foreign workers, and American workers who lose.

This too is truth. It should be/is labor vs. the owners.

The EEOC is not set up to deal in individual cases but with broad patterns of discrimination as measured by statistical reports.

The EEOC can deal with individual cases. But the EEOC is a scam. The EEOC is no arbitrator of discrimination issues. The EEOC is an agent to and a lackey for the industry. Homer has incontrovertible proof.

One guy told the geeks (IT workers in general) should organize and make their own lobby so as to make weight on K-Street decisions, certainly a good idea.

Labor has the Programmer's Guild and the IEEE. We will never outspend the indsutry. The industry has been oiling the politicians real well on this issue.

So which are you Homer, the devious slave trader, or the lowly H1B worker drone?

Homer Phillips is the displaced American worker.
[ November 23, 2004: Message edited by: Homer Phillips ]

[Inuka Vincit]

My appologies homer since you are a displaced worker and I misunderstood your sarcasm(I was poed ), but I feel very strongly about this subject. I support the H1B program and am dead against abuse. If it is abused it takes away from people like you and me both. I am pretty much sick and tierd of the abuse and all the negative connotations that come from it. Ofcourse what even abused more than the H1B program is the L1 where low pay is allowed.

Eric, you can use the H1B to migrate as many have. Irnonically the Green card process which was stalled during the 9/11 process has been sped up and made more efficient right now. The first stage takes apparently takes about a year and the last few take an other year, so if you apply for the green card(work based) at the same time the H1B(you can do this as part of the H1B visa process) is applied for the green card can be had in about two years. Ofcourse after five years after the green card you can apply for citizenship. If you have the skills H1B is probably one of the best ways to migrate to the US.

The H1B regulations are supposed to ensure that it does what it supposed to do, but unfortunately the system is abused. What it needs is some realy strong law enforcement and punishment against abusers of the system.

There are some very bright forign students out there, that have gotten hired with very good pay(considering this time), not all H1B cases are cases of abuse or taking away from American workers. If the H1B wasnt abused like it was the quota wouldnt have finished like it did.
[ November 23, 2004: Message edited by: Inuka Vincit ]

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi Inuka !

Eric, you can use the H1B to migrate as many have. Irnonically the Green card process which was stalled during the 9/11 process has been sped up and made more efficient right now. The first stage takes apparently takes about a year and the last few take an other year, so if you apply for the green card(work based) at the same time the H1B(you can do this as part of the H1B visa process) is applied for the green card can be had in about two years. Ofcourse after five years after the green card you can apply for citizenship. If you have the skills H1B is probably one of the best ways to migrate to the US.

Eric, it must be me again for I am the only one in this thread .
If you have any experience about this matter, would you recommend H1B considering its present situation ? Would any honest US employer sponsor me mounths before the cap so as to avoid exhaustion ? I have doubts.
Anyway, I will post my resume on Monster.com from mid 2005 onwards so as to ask for last time H1B or GC sponsorship. If US IT hire situation goes as bad as I foresee (for IMHO present visa situation in US if kept unchanged will make every IT worker's lot worse soon), it should be successful this time.

But please Inuka, do you know the practical track to follow so as to ask directly for a GC as it looks much easier (and almost single workaround for H1B bottleneck) ? I asked on this forum to another indian (presuming you are one too) who seemed to have got one directly, but he never explained his own track for this.

Best regards.

[Jay Shin]

Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
The first stage takes apparently takes about a year and the last few take an other year, so if you apply for the green card(work based) at the same time the H1B(you can do this as part of the H1B visa process) is applied for the green card can be had in about two years.

Employment-based immigration (Green Card) is no easier than H-1B. And as far as I know, it takes more than 3-5 years in some states (such as NY, CA, MA) because there's a huge backlog.

[Inuka Vincit]

Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi Inuka !

Eric, you can use the H1B to migrate as many have. Irnonically the Green card process which was stalled during the 9/11 process has been sped up and made more efficient right now. The first stage takes apparently takes about a year and the last few take an other year, so if you apply for the green card(work based) at the same time the H1B(you can do this as part of the H1B visa process) is applied for the green card can be had in about two years. Ofcourse after five years after the green card you can apply for citizenship. If you have the skills H1B is probably one of the best ways to migrate to the US.

Eric, it must be me again for I am the only one in this thread .
If you have any experience about this matter, would you recommend H1B considering its present situation ? Would any honest US employer sponsor me mounths before the cap so as to avoid exhaustion ? I have doubts.
Anyway, I will post my resume on Monster.com from mid 2005 onwards so as to ask for last time H1B or GC sponsorship. If US IT hire situation goes as bad as I foresee (for IMHO present visa situation in US if kept unchanged will make every IT worker's lot worse soon), it should be successful this time.

But please Inuka, do you know the practical track to follow so as to ask directly for a GC as it looks much easier (and almost single workaround for H1B bottleneck) ? I asked on this forum to another indian (presuming you are one too) who seemed to have got one directly, but he never explained his own track for this.

Best regards.

The problem is that your outside the US. If you are outside its harder. The best bet is to get into an American afliated company and get over here. If you are already in America.

The H1B and green card(for work) is supposed to be independant. The catch is that you have to have a valid status(with a visa in the US or outside) the US.

The first and hardest step in the GC process is the labour certificate. At this stage the party sponsering you have to show that tere arent any other ppl who can take your job. After this there are three stages(I think) but you can basically work(I think).

In order to get a labour certificate you have to get a company to sponser you or you can sponser yourself you qualify for the exceptional ability category. (phd research papers etc) requirements http://uscis.gov/graphics/howdoi/eligibility2.htm

I am just spurting this out at the top of my head check www.murthy.com for more correct info. They have some good FAQ and descent forums. Or message me, I will send you what I have.

If you can get an H1B and can qulify for the GC process it is much faster than immigration through sponsership. Even if an immidiate relative sponsers you it takes at least 4 or 5years. Ofcourse the other way is the lottery(if you qualify apply now, dead line is in Jan).



Oh, I am not Indian pr Pakistani . Same region, better looking, just better
[ November 23, 2004: Message edited by: Inuka Vincit ]

[Sonny Gill]

Originally posted by Inuka Vincit:
. Same region, better looking, just better

[ November 23, 2004: Message edited by: Inuka Vincit ]

Yeah right

[Arjun Shastry]

Inuka,you are originally from Sri Lanka,right?