Drinking more tea is the key...
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Drinking more tea is the key...
Drinking more tea is the key...
Are you basing your observations on any kind of statistics? if so, can you please post the links to the source?
Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
I recently saw Ron's slides and they are breathtaking.
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Originally posted by Daniel Rhoades:
Is it me or in the last few months, has the number of Indian people trying to learn Java risen as dramatic as the number of company's outsourcing there telesales teams to India?
Namma Suvarna Karnataka
Le Cafe Mouse - Helen's musings on the web - Java Skills and Thrills
"God who creates and is nature is very difficult to understand, but he is not arbitrary or malicious." OR "God does not play dice." - Einstein
Drinking more tea is the key...
what is happening is not breathtaking. It is bound to happen because of different technology innovations in the last decade or so. These made physical presence of resource of medium IQ irrelavant.
Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
Kishore Dandu said:
Off-shoring is inevitable, misuse of the H1B program is not.
H1B visas are intended to bring in foreign professionals at market salaries when no US professionals are available. This simple concept has been changed into a flood of lower-paid workers in direct competition with US workers.
Competition, even fair competition, between US workers and H1B visa holders is outside the intent, and often the letter, of the law.
Greed has overcome common sense and businesses are blatently going beyond the law to preferentially hire visa holders:
https://coderanch.com/forums/
This practice has now been well documented and it is up to the injured parties, US professionals, to insist that the laws be tightened and fully enforced. This will take more work but it is already happening.
There will be an adjustment period as college students and legacy programmers learn Java and .net, as companies are forced to reopen the job title "entry level programmer", and as age discrimination laws are strictly enforced (you can't ask anything of a 40-year-old applicant that you don't ask of a 20-year-old applicant - that's the law!). I notice that Sun is now constructing a new certification, "Java Associate", specifically based on input from "an expert who knows exactly what you'd be looking for when hiring an entry level programmer into your team".
The end result will be that work that can go offshore will still go offshore and work that must be done in the US will be done by Americans.
[ March 12, 2005: Message edited by: Mike Gershman ]
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:
We were discussing about off-shoring in this topic. Please do not hijack the post.
If you have problems with H1 programs/ people of H1 visa or H1 abuses etc, you are welcome to start a new post and proceed from there.
Is it me or in the last few months, has the number of Indian people trying to learn Java risen as dramatic as the number of company's outsourcing there telesales teams to India?
I wonder if there is a link, is outsourcing set to continue to web/application development too?
I also have met many people here in the UK that are just learning Java to make money - where has development passion gone... coding for 14hrs a day for the love of it!
BTW: I'm not a racist person at all - this is just an interesting observation!
Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
The original post of this thread, by Daniel Rhoades:
Kishore suggested inevitability, not of offshoring but of outsourcing to Tulsa,OK and Des Moines,Iowa, cities in the US. This does involve visa holders. I suggested that this is not inevitable if the laws are enforced.
How have I changed the topic?
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Drinking more tea is the key...
Originally posted by Daniel Rhoades:
I believe Austrailia has a strong policy towards this.
Kishore
SCJP, blog
This will take more work but it is already happening.
Can you please provide more information on what is already happening?
Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
Originally posted by Daniel Rhoades:
Is it me or in the last few months, has the number of Indian people trying to learn Java risen as dramatic as the number of company's outsourcing there telesales teams to India?
I wonder if there is a link, is outsourcing set to continue to web/application development too?
I also have met many people here in the UK that are just learning Java to make money - where has development passion gone... coding for 14hrs a day for the love of it!
Drinking more tea is the key...
Originally posted by Daniel Rhoades:
In London + surrounding area, UK there are loads of Austrailians/NZ in IT over here, all good folk though!
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Drinking more tea is the key...
Originally posted by Daniel Rhoades:
In London + surrounding area, UK there are loads of Austrailians/NZ in IT over here, all good folk though!
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
Start with this link:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html
I will post more info later.
Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
OK, but... so what ?
Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
Eric LEMAITRE
CNAM IT Engineer, MS/CS (RHCE, RHCX, SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCEA, Net+)
Free Online Tutorials: http://www.free-tutorials-online.net/
Originally posted by Eric Lemaitre:
Hi Mike !
...Now there is hard data on H1B/L1 abuse. ...Everything takes time in Washington, but the wheels are turning.
Don't get misled Mike, I totally agree with the final conclusion and proposal of "http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html", I even am in favor of eliminating DV lottery to replace it with the new H1B program proposal it suggests, so that USA only immigrants are labor qualified instead of randomly chosen.
Best regards.
Originally posted by Anselm Paulinus:
Government like equity; equity like nature does not act in vain.
Have you considered eliminating the H1B program so that there is no migration to the USA at all, be it labor qualified or not; at least you are still more productive where ever you are than one who is not labor qualified.
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Mike: There are ways to defend the current situation, but lack of solid data is no longer one of them.
Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:
The tech companies in US will be screwed if H1 visa is eliminated. I can see many of these firms going down the pipe if that happens.
There are situations where there is genuine need for H1 holders, since there is no equivalent resource from US.
Originally posted by Anselm Paulinus:
In a simillar vain Fast food and security providing companies will be screwed without unskilled labors; there are real needs for the unskilled labors. In Economics; the price of a commodity does not depend on the amount of time spent in producing the commodity but on the forces of demand and supply. If there are shortage of unskilled workers the cost of hiring one will be almost as high as the cost of hiring an IT worker. Within the last four years that the demand for IT skills fell short of supply; wages of IT professionals fell by 25%; and those in the labor force put in more effort to remain at the labor force. No one is indispensable and the government knew precisely what it was doing by virtue of the green card lotto.
Kishore
SCJP, blog
The tech companies in US will be screwed if H1 visa is eliminated. I can see many of these firms going down the pipe if that happens.
There are situations where there is genuine need for H1 holders, since there is no equivalent resource from US.
Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:
The tech companies in US will be screwed if H1 visa is eliminated. I can see many of these firms going down the pipe if that happens.
There are situations where there is genuine need for H1 holders, since there is no equivalent resource from US.
Originally posted by peter wooster:
Please explain exactly what resource is missing in the U.S. It appears that IT companies in Canada are doing quite well, without a visa like H1. There are plenty of Indian workers here, but they are mostly landed immigrants, the equivalent of green card, the rest are Canadian citizens.
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Originally posted by Mike Gershman:
Kishore said:
In my considerable experience, the most talented programmers take under two years to be highly productive. Retrained legacy programmers take even less time. At present, there is excess capacity in most US university Computer Science departments and there is no shortage of potential students if the jobs came back.
Since H1B visas last 3 years with one renewal outside the quota, I don't see how there will be any problem replacing repatriating visa holders with permanent US residents.
You could argue price competition, but many of these jobs are the US end of an off-shored project, so they don't sink the budget.
I do believe that there must be much more selectivity then during the bubble. Gerald Weinberg showed years ago that a good programmer is over ten times as productive as an average programmer. Productivity is a bigger cost driver than raw salary.
Kishore
SCJP, blog
Originally posted by Kishore Dandu:
Irrespective of how good canadian IT firms are doing, the preferred destination for IT immigrants is US(compared to Canada). US has stricter immigration policy with respect to granting Green cards compared to Canada(& Australia lately)
Originally posted by peter wooster:
Please directly address my question. The question was "Please explain exactly what resource is missing in the U.S.?" In that question I was asking for clarification of your statement that "There are situations where there is genuine need for H1 holders, since there is no equivalent resource from US."
Kishore
SCJP, blog
people from schools like Berkley expect about 80K per year just out of school)
Mike Gershman
SCJP 1.4, SCWCD in process
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