Are there any fair chances

[Monarch Bhojani]

Hello all
I am currently completing my BE Computer Sci. from India
Well I wish to go abroad to study as well as work over there

I have heard that when u land up in European countries and while you are studying you dont get the jobs related to the field of yours. IS it SO??

And please suggest me a good college in London where I could study my masters as well could earn to incur the expenses of the studies.
Is it possible to get a job in my respected field as soon as I start the studies

Thanks
Regards
Monarch

[Arjunkumar Shastry]

University of Cambridge,Oxford,Bristol I heard are good ones.

[Monarch Bhojani]

Hello Arjun
thanks for ur reply.
But i had a question in my mind that is it necessary to go for the studies over there with work experience in India or can i apply directly.

So far what would be better on the perspective of my career

Will an Indian Middle class boy be able to pay off the fees of these universities

Plz reply
Thanks
Regards
Monarch

[Arjunkumar Shastry]

Recently British Councils in India conducted British Education fairs across the country.You must have read this in newspapers.Fees I don't have much idea.But I have seen people completing Masters in 1 to 1.5 years and started working here or in UK.You can contact your nearby Britsh Councils or British Library where you can get detailed information.
About whether its worth or not,you have to decide what you want in your career.

[Jeroen Wenting]

not to belittle your efforts but if you want to work and study abroad you should improve your English (or the local language of the country you want to take a job away from a local).
With the number of unemployed locals being huge in Europe employers are rightly extremely picky. Attitudes towards foreigners are (and have been for some time) shifting from a warm welcome to cold to (sometimes) hostile.

We don't take kindly towards people coming in and stealing our jobs who don't even talk our languages properly (whether because they don't care or haven't learned doesn't matter, you'll be seen as just another lazy foreigner who wants only to work just long enough to qualify for unemployment benefits).

[Sonny Gill]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:
you'll be seen as just another lazy foreigner who wants only to work just long enough to qualify for unemployment benefits

The number of lazy natives who do that is probabely not small either

Monarch, if you want to really study when you are there, you wont be able to work enough to pay for all your fees and living expenses, IMHO of course.
You will probabely be able to work and make enough to pay for your living expenses (and possibly a part of your university fees).

And yes, it is quite likely that you wont get a job in your respecitve field, if you mean IT by that. This is partly because of unfamiliarity with the local customs, practices and the job scene, and also because most of the employers would prefer full time committed employees. Personally, I see nothing wrong with doing a job not related to your field while you are studying. If anything it helps you broaden your experience, and makes you appreciate how other people live their lives.

Good luck.

[Sat Nar]

Dear Monarch Bhojani,

my sincere advice is to gain some 2 yrs of experience in INDIA before thinking of doing MS.Its very difficult to get a job in UK without experience.So we should not take any chances since it involves a huge amount of money.My friend is now struggling to get a job and is planning to return to India for job search.So lets play it safe.Gain some good experience and then you will be in a good position to do your masters anywhere.

[Monarch Bhojani]

Hello
Thank u all for ur replies.
See first of all knowing English is not at all a big deal. It's just another language for us/me.

But is it necessary to do work in a reputed company in India ??
Or else any good IT company will do??
if its just matter of experience

And if at all i dont get a related job then also is there a possibility that my BE degree would help me out to get a better job over there

Thanks
Regards
Monarch
----Be positive , always----

[K Riaz]

Originally posted by Monarch Bhojani:
See first of all knowing English is not at all a big deal

As someone who has lived, studied and worked in London, I can safely dismiss that without any hesitancy. If your English is bad, forget about coming to the UK. By assuming that its not a "big deal", you can prepare yourself for a quick return to India. How will you cope in interviews?

Originally posted by Monarch Bhojani:
But is it necessary to do work in a reputed company in India ??

I would say it may help, but don't rely on it as your sole selling point. Employers know that standards are not as high as they are in the UK, and someone who may have been working for say, Accenture in India, may struggle to get a similar role in the UK, and thats before we talk about "transition" to the European work culture.

Originally posted by Monarch Bhojani:
I am currently completing my BE Computer Sci. from India
Well I wish to go abroad to study as well as work over there

400,000 people graduate every year in the UK, what can you offer that they can't? Even for British Graduates, the market is very difficult because there is so much competition for places.

Originally posted by Monarch Bhojani:

And if at all i dont get a related job then also is there a possibility that my BE degree would help me out to get a better job over there

If I am honest, I would say that you will find it VERY difficult to convince employers that you are better than a native graduate who has probably studied at a top university in the same subject, with better standards.

Originally posted by Monarch Bhojani:
please suggest me a good college in London where I could study my masters as well could earn to incur the expenses of the studies.

Bare in mind that competition for places at top universities and colleges is very high (Cambridge and Oxford - both outside London, reject 10,000 straight A students every year). The best ones in London are UCL, Imperial and LSE. These are all highly respected (like Havard, Yale, MIT etc in the US) and very hard to get into. You need to be in the top 5% in your school to even be considered for the popular degrees. However, they do welcome foreign students because they pay high fees (which will triple next year), but don't waste your time if you do not meet the academic level which they seek.

Good luck.
[ March 29, 2005: Message edited by: Kashif Riaz ]

[Damanjit Kaur]

Kashif Riaz

As someone who has lived, studied and worked in London, I can safely dismiss that without any hesitancy. If your English is bad, forget about coming to the UK. By assuming that its not a "big deal", you can prepare yourself for a quick return to India. How will you cope in interviews?

First of all to get admission in foreign universities, we have to pass IELTS (Englsh test) which is taken by British Council all over the world. Like Monarch said "No big deal" about it, he means his english is good.

Kashif Riaz

Employers know that standards are not as high as they are in the UK, and someone who may have been working for say, Accenture in India, may struggle to get a similar role in the UK, and thats before we talk about "transition" to the European work culture.

Without indulging into another war I would like to mention here in brief that its not Employers but the general belief of common people about the standards in U.K. and elsewhere.

In the face of unemployment situation in Europe. It will be difficult to find job as Employers need to prove to the immigration authorities( when they apply for work permit for their prospective employee)that they can't find any native/European for the skill they require, so its not a good idea to find work there.

On the other hand, I don't understand about certain Govt. policies in the face of unemployment within the country. They have introduced a work
holiday Visa plan also. which entitles foreigners with some work experience and minimum qualification to work in U.K. for 2 years. I know some of my friends who after finishing their studies in Germany got this Visa and now working in U.K. and I also don't know how they coped with interview as their english is also not at all good and also I don't understand how they passed IELTS which is conducted by British Council in India.

Don't you think, these also show defeciencies in the British System.

[Monarch Bhojani]

Hello all
Thank u all for ur replies
See people as I was going to complete my BE after 1 month I was confused as to how what would be a good option to go for. I just wanted guidance from highly qualified people of ur sort. There is no need to get into the debate as to how someone will offer me a job or not.

I just wanted to ask if UK is the best spot for studies and work or as the other member told Germany is a cheaper place to study Masters and then shifting base to UK

What would turn out to be a good option to choose on career perspective

Thanks again and dont indulge into these unfruitful debates as it would not yield us anything

Help me out

Regards
Monarch
---- I.M.Possible----

[Kj Reddy]

As there are good opportunities in India itself you better to go for job in a reputed company in India. If you want to go for higher studies why dont you try MTech in any of IITs or IISc which are known as world's prestigious institutes for science and technology.

Dont go for Germany, lot of my friends struggling there. Its not so easy to go to UK from Germany.

[Monarch Bhojani]

hello all
thanks for ur replies
One thing i forgot to specify that my economic conditions are not that good.
That was one reason that I wished to go abroad on some from of Loan and then repay it as well as get good education from universities abroad
Mean time i could earn so that the conditions back home improve

Thanks
Regards
Monarch
----WILL----

[Damanjit Kaur]

Then come to West part of Germany. Get admission in some free university. Also learn German language properly before coming to Germany. Very important to get any kind of job and earn money for your living. Language is important not just to understand other culture but also to express yourself too.

Debates come as a part of whole package whereever you go out of India. As a foreigner in any foreign land, on one hand you will always be responsible for some wrongs happening in your country whether you are involved in that or not, then on other hand its also your duty to make others aware of good things happening in your country.

It doesn't mean harboring any hard feelings towards others.

[Monarch Bhojani]

hello
thanks for the reply
So if its good to go to germany are there good colleges that provides Masters in Sci field of the same quality as in US and UK

And what would be the fees norms over there
What would turn out to be my expense of say a month living over there

And are there good chances to get UK visa from there

Thanks
Regards
Monarch

[Damanjit Kaur]

Here is a link
http://www.daad.com/deutschland/en/

where you can find all universities for particular course that you are looking for, course ratings,college ratings, living expenses, tution fees, scholarship and everything. Once you select some university, you can inquire about it from Daad office in Delhi.

I can't say anything about German eduation quality comparison with U.K. and U.S.

[Axel Janssen]

you can ask Ellen Zhao about studying in Germany.
http://www.javaranch.com
She's asian (chinese-asian, though) and she studies in Germany.
In her blog are some points about Germany and studying here (to positive if you ask me, but perhaps I am wrong person to ask).

[paul sinnott]

Originally posted by Monarch Bhojani:
hello all
thanks for ur replies
One thing i forgot to specify that my economic conditions are not that good.
That was one reason that I wished to go abroad on some from of Loan and then repay it as well as get good education from universities abroad
Mean time i could earn so that the conditions back home improve

Thanks
Regards
Monarch
----WILL----

[paul sinnott]

Originally posted by Monarch Bhojani:
hello all
thanks for ur replies
One thing i forgot to specify that my economic conditions are not that good.
That was one reason that I wished to go abroad on some from of Loan and then repay it as well as get good education from universities abroad
Mean time i could earn so that the conditions back home improve

Thanks
Regards
Monarch

Hi Monarch
Check out the "Open University" (google) here in the Uk.
It would allow you to get your masters while working full time. It is distance learning so you would do modules at the weekend/evenings. There would be coursework/exams. it might take 3-4 years but you would be working all the time-so your commercial experience would be good.
Good luck
----WILL----

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:


First of all to get admission in foreign universities, we have to pass IELTS (Englsh test) which is taken by British Council all over the world. Like Monarch said "No big deal" about it, he means his english is good.

Which he doesn't show in his original post. If English (for lack of a better word) like that passes the test than the test is basically flawed.

he number of lazy natives who do that is probabely not small either

Never denied that. But why make the situation worse by paying half of India unemployment benefits in addition to half the UK?

Dont go for Germany, lot of my friends struggling there. Its not so easy to go to UK from Germany.

It is for European citizens. As a foreigner you'll need a work permit for both countries separate.
Job market in IT in Germany is among the worst in Europe. UK is starting to pick up but has a long way to go.
Unemployment is high in both countries, sentiments towards foreigners is negative (noone likes outsiders stealing their jobs).

With millions out of work and more and more jobs in the low end of the market going to eastern Europe, the last thing we want is to see the mid-high end jobs going to Asians...

[Axel Janssen]

@Jeroen: Isn't it a bit different if folks want come here for studying instead of working? Ok. Some stay. I know guy from Cameroon who lived with my cousin.
Don't believe that protectionism helps. anyway. But views ma y be different.
BUT: I know from Chile and I don't know if Indians think the same way: People in Chile were driving me mad because they thought that working in Central Europe is piece of cake.
Get Real.
We do have an unemployment rate of >10% for years now. Even a lot of natives with skills considered as excelent 3 years ago are accustomed to worry a lot.
A lot of jobs here are very close to customer. You need to know communicate in german, know customs, empathize (I hated this word 3 years ago).
30 days of vacations a year. How great. My reality are 42 days in my vacation account and not knowing when to take those.
Also german companies are still in process to invest less in Germany and more in other countries. I know internal budget cutting plans of a big german carmaker. Plans from hell.
Also we have from more sunnier time loads of people in high payed jobs who do nothing and are virtually unfireable from their contracts.

Axel

[Damanjit Kaur]

Well, this might not be relating to original post topic but I really wanted to discuss this with the intention of creating, as well as gaining more understanding.

Jeroen Wenting

Which he doesn't show in his original post. If English (for lack of a better word) like that passes the test than the test is basically flawed.

No wonder the test is flawed. But from Monarch's original post, how can you confer that his English is not good.

I understand the sentiments of Europeans towards Foreigners but why do they enforce their negativity towards each and every Foreigner and also some times go to such an extreme extent. For e.g. if someone comes to your country for just studying, pays a real high amount of tution fees and then end up listening to comments from some of lazy natives like 'They come here on pretext of education, get married and then settle down here, steal our jobs'. I was deeply hurt upon listening to this comment. I made it a point not to fall in Love with any German.

In order to adabt myself into German culture during my studies, I had to become a non-vegetarian ( because people in Mensa always show signs of irritation on my taking vegetarian food while I wonder they don't behave like that with their native vegetarians ), stopped listening to Hindi songs, can't speak Hindi language with my brother ( because my German sister-in-law hates that and suspects me if I speak in Hindi with my brother- she feels I might be speaking something against her), can't wear my Indian Clothes as the natives are hesitant to talk to me( upon asking the reason for it- one of my German friends told me, its because Germans are hesitant to talk to tradional and conservative people.)

While some of things were neccessary to adabt into European culture but others just seemed to me as being enforced upon me without any valid cause.

German people should not be afraid of their jobs being stolen by foreigners as their rules are so strict and getting work permit is almost no-no.

[Axel Janssen]

Its easy for me to talk, because I am in my original country.
I have ever had the suspicion that you are respected more in other country when you are from "richer country".

Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:

I had to become a non-vegetarian ( because people in Mensa always show signs of irritation on my taking vegetarian food while I wonder they don't behave like that with their native vegetarians )

Its easy to say for me, but this is not ok.
Even worse. I had american collegue, who was quite veggie and I there were never any complaints.

Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:

( because my German sister-in-law hates that and suspects me if I speak in Hindi with my brother- she feels I might be speaking something against her)

By no means ok. I'ld talk with her.

Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:

one of my German friends told me, its because Germans are hesitant to talk to tradional and conservative people.)

This is a joke.
Those most enlightened folks do have a prejudice about cloths and justify it with being very progressive. I do often suspect that the economic degeneration of this country is because of its people.

[Axel Janssen]

@Damanjit: In what city do you live?
I think asian people should show more pride, but its allways easy to say. What you've said, Damanjit, I consider a bit sad. Thanks for your honesty.

[paul sinnott]

Originally posted by Jeroen Wenting:

Unemployment is high in both countries, sentiments towards foreigners is negative (noone likes outsiders stealing their jobs).

With millions out of work and more and more jobs in the low end of the market going to eastern Europe, the last thing we want is to see the mid-high end jobs going to Asians...

Please dont assume everyone holds your xenophobic views. Dont say "the last
thing we" when you should really say I.
You obviously feel very threatened as shown by your defensive and overtly racist comments.
Maybe you should concentrate on upping your skillset in order to move up the value chain rather then knocking those trying to climb up.

[Monarch Bhojani]

Hello
God end this debate.
See everyone out there why have you started to show prejudice.
It was just a question of my selection of a viable option to look for.

Plz sincerely if someone could help me know the number of good colleges in London,UK then it would be a great help for me.

Thanks Mr Kaur for the Germany link you provided.

All those people who think that we are stealing their jobs I might remind you that nobody steals your job It is that you are not aptly qualified for the same.

If you are knowledgeable you might be an imperative part of your organisation

In any case I am definitely going to come over there
.... if some good people out there support me to have a better understanding of the studing and working environment.

I dont have hard feelings for anyone
And anyways how was my English this time Mr JOREAN (better check if i had spelled it correctly---problem of poor English)

Thanks
Regards
Monarch

----Proud To Be An INDIAN----

Love humanity

[Damanjit Kaur]

@Damanjit: In what city do you live?

I live in Bremen.

[peter wooster]

Originally posted by Monarch Bhojani:
Hello
God end this debate.
See everyone out there why have you started to show prejudice.
It was just a question of my selection of a viable option to look for.

Plz sincerely if someone could help me know the number of good colleges in London,UK then it would be a great help for me.

Thanks Mr Kaur for the Germany link you provided.

All those people who think that we are stealing their jobs I might remind you that nobody steals your job It is that you are not aptly qualified for the same.

If you are knowledgeable you might be an imperative part of your organisation

In any case I am definitely going to come over there
.... if some good people out there support me to have a better understanding of the studing and working environment.

I dont have hard feelings for anyone
And anyways how was my English this time Mr JOREAN (better check if i had spelled it correctly---problem of poor English)

Thanks
Regards
Monarch

----Proud To Be An INDIAN----

Love humanity

As a native English speaker, I feel that your English is actually very good. There are a few mistakes in your initial post, I have corrected it:

Hello all,

I am currently completing my BE Computer Sci. in India and I wish to go abroad to study and work.

I have heard that when studying in European countries you don't get jobs related to your field. Is this so?

Please recommend a good college in London where I can study for my masters and earn enough to cover my expenses.
Is it possible to get a job in my field when I start my studies?

As you can see, it's not very different from your post. English is very difficult even for those of us who have spoken it exclusively since childhood, and is particularly difficult for people from India, where it serves as the "Lingua Franca" of the sub-continent and is everyone's second language.

Also, one sure way to get flamed is to misspell someone's name, especially in all-caps, so before Jeroen corrects you, please apologize.
[ March 30, 2005: Message edited by: peter wooster ]

[paul sinnott]

Originally posted by Monarch Bhojani:
Hello
God end this debate.
See everyone out there why have you started to show prejudice.
It was just a question of my selection of a viable option to look for.

Plz sincerely if someone could help me know the number of good colleges in London,UK then it would be a great help for me.

Thanks Mr Kaur for the Germany link you provided.

All those people who think that we are stealing their jobs I might remind you that nobody steals your job It is that you are not aptly qualified for the same.

If you are knowledgeable you might be an imperative part of your organisation

In any case I am definitely going to come over there
.... if some good people out there support me to have a better understanding of the studing and working environment.

I dont have hard feelings for anyone
And anyways how was my English this time Mr JOREAN (better check if i had spelled it correctly---problem of poor English)

Thanks
Regards
Monarch

----Proud To Be An INDIAN----

Love humanity

Hi Monarch
try typing "london universities" in google
also go here-->http://www.hotcourses.com/
click on degree tab and select courses
good luck
Paul

[Jeroen Wenting]

Maybe you should concentrate on upping your skillset in order to move up the value chain rather then knocking those trying to climb up.

Nothing wrong with my skillset but it's kinda hard to compete with someone working for half the salary I need to even pay the rent because he's excempt from most taxes and social security premiums...

Also, one sure way to get flamed is to misspell someone's name, especially in all-caps, so before Jeroen corrects you, please apologize.

I'm used to it, misplacing a few letters is the least abuse I've seen

[Arjunkumar Shastry]

{
...I need to even pay the rent because he's excempt from most taxes and social security premiums...
}
Thats bad.Here almost everybody has atleast one house in major cities so no question of rent.Also govt is very friendly.They just give warning and let people go if people don't pay taxes.

[Damanjit Kaur]

Jeroen Wenting

it's kinda hard to compete with someone working for half the salary

So the problem lies more in outsourcing ( as you earlier also mentioned in your previous post) rather than people coming in European countries and taking away your jobs.

To earn more profit, the business houses in your country and elsewhere in Europe like U.S. will continue to outsource and ofcourse they will have to pay very less in comparison to paying to professionals at home country.

The professionals on the other side in outsourced countries will continue to gain, they will never deny getting fat salaries which from your countries perspective means - working at half the salary.

I just wonder- For how long are we going to continue to see each other with hatred. Can we not just find a win-win situation where everyone benefits.
Like in your case- Can you also not join this outsourcing stream to earn more money, I mean transforming yourself from a Developer to an Entrepreneur.

[Anbu Selvam]

The jobs that Britain stole from India 200 years back are now being returned.

check out this link

[Anbu Selvam]

sorry, wrong url..now check out this

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1067344,00.html

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:


I just wonder- For how long are we going to continue to see each other with hatred. Can we not just find a win-win situation where everyone benefits.
Like in your case- Can you also not join this outsourcing stream to earn more money, I mean transforming yourself from a Developer to an Entrepreneur.

Hatred is never a good position to view things. You might have realized that there is some element of fear in this country which haven't existed before. And there might be more agression against foreigners. How some look here. Their faces. And those are not the most intelligent or best.

You are absolutedly right. Westeners can't go on saying for years that one time your developing countries will become as grown up as we are (haha) and now when you start to become competitive react with agressive behaviour.

Not everybody wants to become entrepeneur. Maybe in the end we are all ending as entrepeneurs. I don't know. For example for me burocratic paper stuff (a lot here) is complete horror. I prefer hard core debug sessions of code written by 100% careless people to assemble my german tax declaration. And being entrepeneur is loads of paper stuff.

Often people see it that way that globalization is only good for managers. Anyway. Its stupid and I've seen very unhappy managers and I am not pure programmer but there is a lot of other stuff like planing, bargaining and hear to peoples needs&wishes.
People should pull themselves together and look out for the positive, even if this is sometimes difficult. Hatred towards intruders does not help anybody.
Btw: Currently I work with people from Russia and Iran. And I have it easier, because I was born here. I would never ever show disrespect for someone only because (s)he's from other country or because (s)he has distinct customs. And I think a lot of people are that way here. There are some who think different.
I'ld think that our defender of the dutchmen enslaved in their own country because of 40 years of left wing ideology would be nice and fair person if you worked with him.
And the crap which was presented to me this week as code on servers and as organizational inefficiencies is clear sign that there is yet room for sane competition.

[Damanjit Kaur]

Axel Janssen

You might have realized that there is some element of fear in this country which haven't existed before. And there might be more agression against foreigners.

I did realized that and also felt upon me in an indirect form.

On the positive side- I agree that this aggression came from just a bunch of people and not everyone. As people close to me- my German class fellows, who at times really went out of their way to make me feel at home, my Professor, my Colleagues at Office-where I am just going to finish my internship, are really nice and so much helpful that I prefer them more for any help rather than my own Indians living here.

My views about Germany are almost same as in Ellen Zhao's Blog except for trains/Trams punctuality which is better here .

Monarch, If you read this thread properly then you shall get all information about work conditions and good colleges in U.K. and Germany.

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:


So the problem lies more in outsourcing ( as you earlier also mentioned in your previous post) rather than people coming in European countries and taking away your jobs.

No. It's often cheaper to bring in some foreigners, put them 10 to an apartment, and pay the rent for them than it is to hire a similar number of local talent...
That's exactly what's happening here.
Take the building industry (not IT but the signs are there). Busloads of Poles and Slovaks are shipped in every monday morning. They're put in cheap hostels for the week and bussed back home on friday.
Even with those extra costs they're still a lot cheaper than local people (and when the project is complete there's no expensive paperwork and procedures to get rid of them, you just let the contract run out).

I just wonder- For how long are we going to continue to see each other with hatred. Can we not just find a win-win situation where everyone benefits.
Like in your case- Can you also not join this outsourcing stream to earn more money, I mean transforming yourself from a Developer to an Entrepreneur.

I (like Axel) hate paperwork and business meetings with a vengeance. Had I not I'd have followed in my father's footsteps and become a fiscal consultant and/or businessman.

I'm a handson person, and so are many others. In your idea ALL non-management jobs wouls shift from Europe and the US to Asia.
That would leave everyone here who can't do management work in abject poverty (remember our society is more expensive to live in than yours so poverty is reached at a higher income. The �600 or so a month unemployed people get here a month is barely enough survive on and indeed many turn up deeply in debt and on the streets).
Not everyone (even those like me who have similar level education to MBA) is suited for management jobs. We'd have to export those people to your country to work, where they'd likely be met with more hostility than you are met here...

[Damanjit Kaur]

So there is no solution to this outsourcing/jobs migration/hostility problem.

[Jeroen Wenting]

no. As long as people try to get jobs in other countries where the job situation for natives is uncertain (or downright bad) there will be resentment.

How would you feel if a million Ethiopians (for example) were to descend on India and offering to work in programming for a rupee per week?

[K Riaz]

Originally posted by Damanjit Kaur:

I understand the sentiments of Europeans towards Foreigners but why do they enforce their negativity towards each and every Foreigner and also some times go to such an extreme extent. For e.g. if someone comes to your country for just studying, pays a real high amount of tution fees and then end up listening to comments from some of lazy natives like 'They come here on pretext of education, get married and then settle down here, steal our jobs'.

Thats because the majority of people do just that. Just think, why would you come to another country "just" to study? Chances are that you will want to find a job in the same country and settle down with a family once you have finished your studies. I think only a few would return without, at the very least, attempt to find work abroad. It would be a waste of money on their part otherwise.