Indians and announcing what they make

[Eric Pascarello]

I find it surprising that people from India openly say what they make. I know that most USA employees do not want to announce their rate. I have no clue what anyone makes around me. Most contracts I have signed says "You can not tell anyone your hourly rate or ask anyone about their rate. You will be fired if find you dispensing or asking for this information."

Do you all know what each other is making? Is the amount of money you are making no big deal taht you tell each other? Do you have this kind of agreement that I have signed multiple times in my career? Heck I signed htis agreement when I worked for Burger King seven years of my life!

Just wondering...
Eric

[kayal cox]

Hmm, I don't remember having to sign a contract that forbids me from disclosing my salary. But I do know that things like grades, performance appraisal results are to be held confidential.

I think Indians discussing salary openly is a cultural thing. It is changing nowadays. But it still very normal for me to expect my relatives in India to coolly ask me how much I make.

Folks being very open in this forum is probably because they are sort-of anonymous here, but they might not discuss it with their colleagues or friends face-to-face.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Eric Pascarello:
Most contracts I have signed says "You can not tell anyone your hourly rate or ask anyone about their rate. You will be fired if find you dispensing or asking for this information."

That's very interesting. Companies, of course, often do well under that system, because they often have more information about the marketplace than the employee. If employees discussed their compensation, I think they would be better negoiators.

I have never had an employer ask for this clause. On the other hand, I often have asked for it to be put in. This way when, during the interview process, someone asks me what I made at my last job I can say "I'm sorry, I'm contractually obligated to keep that information confidential."

--Mark

[Sania Marsh]

None of my indian, arab, russian, egyptian frieds mind telling how much they make.
In fact, it seems it is only american thing.
But I found once you tell your salary, even americans are quite open about it.

Never heard of signing contract.

[Prem Khan]

I like telling people my wage and I like to hear what other people are makeing

I am exercising my right to freedom of speech, and by doing this I get picture of the market conditions and what I should be paid.......

I dont get envious and the only reason im comparing is to get insight into the market.

This is a free market, not comunism

[shankar narayanan]

hmmm...we are doing it because we want to know what exactly is the "industry standard salary" that our companies promise us as paying..to find out if the salary is really on-par with the industry or below is one major objective in sharing the same...

But I thought that's a universal trait and not specifically indian...

[Eric Pascarello]

It just seems like on this board you can find posts like I am making XXX can I get more. I would go to a site like www.salary.com or http://content.salary.monster.com/ to get a lot of this information. I even look at current job postings and look at the amount they are offering. There is only a few people that know what I make and I like to keep it that way! If I was not so tired from dealing with realtors and my final edits on my book I would try to find some posts to show my point. It is almost 2AM and I need some sleep.

Eric

[Kj Reddy]

Many of Indian companies asks their employees not to discuss their salary, appraisals with their co-employees. But they dont have any objection about discussing their salary with relatives and friends outside the organization.

[Luke Kolin]

Originally posted by Eric Pascarello:
There is only a few people that know what I make and I like to keep it that way!

That's unfortunate. Almost every line of work where compensation is publicly available and shared leads to escalating salaries. Probably the most egregious examples are corporate executives and professional athletes. If you wish to contribute to keeping your wages down, be my guest.

Cheers!

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Luke Kolin:
That's unfortunate. Almost every line of work where compensation is publicly available and shared leads to escalating salaries. Probably the most egregious examples are corporate executives and professional athletes. If you wish to contribute to keeping your wages down, be my guest.

He doesn't need to make his salary public to benefit from it--so long as enough other people do; he can be a free rider. Be his guest... :-)

--Mark

[Eric Pascarello]

Originally posted by Luke Kolin:


That's unfortunate. Almost every line of work where compensation is publicly available and shared leads to escalating salaries. Probably the most egregious examples are corporate executives and professional athletes. If you wish to contribute to keeping your wages down, be my guest.

Cheers!

Who every said my wages were down? LOL

Eric

[D Rog]

Just curious why you can't tell? What's wrong with that?

[ab parashar]

Eric,
IMHO its a cultural difference.While most Americans tend to lead very private lives,things are quite different in India.

In India,even the domestic help would know how much you make/your financial health,about your friends,about your girlfriends...and minor details about your personal life and they dont mind sharing that with someone whose business in no way concerns that.Indians are,by nature quite interested in knowing whats going on in another person's life.Thats quite different from the US , where even if you had a private plane,no one would care.

[Sameer Jamal]

My case is different I dont like to share with others about what I make even in my office colleagues dosent know what other people are making and they dont care either.

[Anand Prabhu]

When I was working in India (more than 10 years ago), it was common to discuss salaries. We were at the entry level and we knew and discussed our salaries not only within the company but also with people from other companies. But in US, my colleagues and I reversed our directions. We are extremely loath to discuss our salaries. Four years ago, when I was doing extremely great and knew that I was one of the top earners in my company, I refused to participate in salary discussions. My colleagues who were earning less than me tried a lot to get it out. But now, having had to accept an offer 18 months ago because of personal circumstances, I am pretty sure that I am not making what I should be. It's so tough to know what my peers are making. And my manager keeps on sidetracking the issue and continues to point at the weak economy in Michigan each time I broach the issue. These days, I wish the "India" days would set in and I could confront my Manager with better data.

[Sania Marsh]

Originally posted by Shawn DeSarkar:

This is a free market, not comunism

Don't get what this has to do with anything..
Do you mean to say salaries are kept secret in communist countries?
Or one caanot ask for a raise in communist countries?
Or all salaries are same in communist countries?

What exactly did that mean?
[ August 20, 2005: Message edited by: Sania Marsh ]

[Sania Marsh]

I don't get those who keep their salaries in secret.

It is only in company's interest not to disclose salaries. What harm would it do to employees? Some will realize they are underpaid!? If salaries are fair, company will not have trouble explaining employees the differences - there are many factors - experience, reviews, degree, etc...

All my relatives and friends also know what I make. If we didn't know each other's salaries how would we know when one needs help after, say, paying $8000 for surgery? Or how would you know that it is too much to let them pay $150 bill in restaurant for both of you?

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Sania Marsh:
I don't get those who keep their salaries in secret.

It is only in company's interest not to disclose salaries. What harm would it do to employees?

- You'll be jealous of me.
- I'll become a target of crime/scams/etc.
- I'll become a target of marketers. (Heck, when I put certain salary ranges on job sites I notice an increase in a certain type of spam.)
- I'll become a target of gold digging women trying to marry me for the wrong reasons.
- People see my paycheck and not me.

Those ar just a few reasons. Also consider... why not disclose your
- medical history
- sexual details from the bedroom

--Mark

[Sania Marsh]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:


- You'll be jealous of me.
- I'll become a target of crime/scams/etc.
- I'll become a target of marketers. (Heck, when I put certain salary ranges on job sites I notice an increase in a certain type of spam.)
- I'll become a target of gold digging women trying to marry me for the wrong reasons.
- People see my paycheck and not me.

Those ar just a few reasons. Also consider... why not disclose your
- medical history
- sexual details from the bedroom

--Mark

Are you telling that I, personally, will be jealous? Pardon me, but I think you should know person better before saying that.
Asking because you said "people" later, therefore I see "You" as me personally.

Maybe you should re-evaluate the world around you, things are not as bad as you see them.

Also your occupation and position gives pretty good clue of how much you are making. One can guess or research and guess pretty close.

I don't see how disclosing sexual or health history related to disclosing salary.
[ August 20, 2005: Message edited by: Sania Marsh ]

[Eric Pascarello]

Sania,

You are blowing it out of proportion. Mark was making a comment and I could make the same assumption by reading your comment where it says 'you'.

Knowing a person's occupation can give a ballpark, but that does not really help.

Eric

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Sania Marsh:

Are you telling that I, personally, will be jealous?

I don't knowyou so couldn't say. "You" is often used in the English language to represent a generic second party.

Whether or not you personally are jealous or any of those other things is irrelevant. What is that that there exists (as in the logic term) a non-trivial set of people for whom that is true. I have met many women for example, who want "rich husbands." Rich is a rlative term, for some it's a multimillionarie, for others it's someonemaking six figures. I've seen people get judged by women for their paycheck or bank account. (Note in case it's not obvious: "there exists" != "in all cases" or even "in most cases") I want a woman to judge me for me. Since it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle, I find it easiest to keep it bottled up all the time.

But hey, I would be more than happy for everyone else to reveal their salaries (feel free to use this thread, if Eric doesn't mind).

--Mark

[Ali Hussain]

Yes Sania why don't you tell us about your salary + your employer + your designation? I am sure it would help your colleagues to check whether they are underpaid or not.

[Sania Marsh]

Originally posted by Qutub Shahi:
Yes Sania why don't you tell us about your salary + your employer + your designation? I am sure it would help your colleagues to check whether they are underpaid or not.

Ah, I think you people are blowing it out of proportions.
Where did I tell you should go and yell about your salaries to everyone?

I was talking about coworkers, friends and family. Not stranger, like you are to me.

My coworkers know how much I make so does everyone else who knows me personally. And I have mentioned this before.

I have no problem leaving my job description, salary, bonuses and benefits information. To my co-workers I can tell that myself.

And please don't take this so aggressively.

This is just a discussion, nothing personal
[ August 21, 2005: Message edited by: Sania Marsh ]

[Sania Marsh]

Originally posted by Eric Pascarello:
Sania,

You are blowing it out of proportion. Mark was making a comment and I could make the same assumption by reading your comment where it says 'you'.

Knowing a person's occupation can give a ballpark, but that does not really help.

Eric

Thank you for correcting me. Second sentence was ment to be true if answer to first question was "yes".

Also, yes, I am probably not as good in english as some of you here, but
please tell me if you don't agree that sentence did sound directed to me.

About ballpark...
Girls hunting rich men - that ballpark will be just enough for them, don't you think? "He makes more than 100K " is just enough for many
Same thing about everyone else.
As well as "he is IT manager, must be makig good money"
[ August 21, 2005: Message edited by: Sania Marsh ]

[Sania Marsh]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:


I don't knowyou so couldn't say. "You" is often used in the English language to represent a generic second party.

Whether or not you personally are jealous or any of those other things is irrelevant. What is that that there exists (as in the logic term) a non-trivial set of people for whom that is true. I have met many women for example, who want "rich husbands." Rich is a rlative term, for some it's a multimillionarie, for others it's someonemaking six figures. I've seen people get judged by women for their paycheck or bank account. (Note in case it's not obvious: "there exists" != "in all cases" or even "in most cases") I want a woman to judge me for me. Since it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle, I find it easiest to keep it bottled up all the time.

But hey, I would be more than happy for everyone else to reveal their salaries (feel free to use this thread, if Eric doesn't mind).

--Mark

Mark, about that "You". It did sound very much directed to me as it was right after my quoted reply. I appologise for making wrong assumption.

FYI, "You" is used same way in 3 other languages I speak. It is not really an "English" thing, and yes, I used it same way many many times here.

It kind of actually hurts everyone attaking my english skills directly, without considering anything else.

You might be right about hiding your salary because of those people... It is probably my lifestyle that didn't let me understand that. I always loved one man since highschool and never got to date anyone else.
I have never met people who would treat me differently because of how much I make, which is very often much higher than their salary. But I also might have been just lucky.

I have seen though many times unfair salary scenarios. When people just honestly didn't know how much they worth and company taking advantage of that.
I explained why I share my salary info with close ones earlier and also never had problems with that.

I guess I will not argue about this anymore, it is everyone's personal business to do whatever they want. I'm still not convinced that I should keep my salary in secret from my coworkers and friends, moreover if they are not keeping it secret.
[ August 21, 2005: Message edited by: Sania Marsh ]

[Eric Pascarello]

To make a point,

I am currently buying a house in the DC-Baltimore Metro Area. When I told people I work with what it costs their first reaction was "And how much do you make?". Of course they were not asking for an answer. Just wondering if I could afford it.

Eric

[Rick O'Shay]

The ramifications of inquiring about somebody's salary are many and obvious. That's why you can actually be terminated for going around and asking about that. It's confidential information. Now, we all know the salary range for a Java programmer in our repspective areas, but the range is huge.

Bob makes X and Alice makes Y. Eve finds out what they make and tells both of them. Doesn't take much to see there are many potential problems and it's not limited to the person who makes less.

Now, in companies and government agencies where salaries are all posted, that's fine. The dynamics in being in a Level X versus a Level Y position are a more manageable issue. That won't work in a competitive small business with at-will employment and constantly fluctuating needs.

[Mark Herschberg]

Food for thought...

Diary of an Anarchist, The Economist, June 26, 1993, p 66 (referenced on page 85 of Measuring and Managing Performance in Organizations)

At Semco, a Brazilian manufacturer of pumps, mixers, valves, and catering and other industrial equipment, most employees decide their own salaries. Their bonuses, which are tied to the company�s profits are shared our as they choose; everyone, including factory workers, sets his own working hours and groups of employees set their own productivity and sales targets. There are no controls over travel or business expenses. There are no manuals or written procedures. Workers choose their own boss and they publicly evaluate his performance. All employees have unlimited access to the company�s books and are trained to read balance sheets. Everyone knows what everyone else earns, and some workers earn more then their boss. Big corporate decisions, such as diversifications and acquisitions, are made by all employees