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A forum for JAVA Collections  RSS feed

 
Shaan Shar
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Hi Moderators,

I have seen a number of questions regarding JAVA Collections. Can we start a new Forum for JAVA Collections it will also helps us to catagorize between JAVA Collection and other JAVA Technology.

Anyways thankx for adding this one.
 
Jeroen T Wenting
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The Collections API is core to pretty much everything, giving them their own forum would be completely pointless.
90% of questions related directly to the Collections API belong in the beginners' forum, the rest are so specialised towards specific applications they are impossible to answer outside that context.
 
Gregg Bolinger
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Yea, what Jeroen said. And on top of that, I don't see a considerable amount of questions specifically about the Collections API anyway to warrent it's own forum.
 
Shaan Shar
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Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
Yea, what Jeroen said. And on top of that, I don't see a considerable amount of questions specifically about the Collections API anyway to warrent it's own forum.


Well Gregg,

Sorry to bother you , and sorry to moderators for replying late..

But this time I am with facts and datasheet of Ranch.

What I have observed is there are so many forum which I also didn't see a considerable amount of questions specific to them.

Well the data is

Portals and Portlets ------------ 860

Game Development ----------- 970


Object Oriented Scripting ---- 646


well the left one is forum name and right one is the number of Posts in that forum.

I can have a bet you may find out number of question regarding Collection greater then these numbers.

If yor have data facts then I also welcome you (Any of Moderators) to have a debate over need of the new Forum of JAVA Collections.

Even I think that JAVA Collection Forum will not only be specific for java it will also consist of Data Structure with JAVA.

Which will helps us a lot.

PS: If moderators think that I have not followed Be Nice Rule then they may intimate me but as per my knowledge I am using the power of a public forum.
 
Ben Souther
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PS: If moderators think that I have not followed Be Nice Rule then they may intimate me but as per my knowledge I am using the power of a public forum.

I didn't see anything about your post that wasn't nice.
 
Paul Sturrock
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I have to agree with Jeroen and Gregg. Collections stuff is part of the core API, so probably belongs in the beginners forum. I don't see what a seperate Collections forum would add. One of the purposes of seperating things out into forums is to avoid potential confusion when one technology includes terms and concepts that are very close to another. I don't think including Collections in the beginners forum is confusing - I can't think of anything else in the core API that they could be confused with.

As for the other examples you cite, you may have a case for them being amalgamated into another forum based on the paucity of activity in those forums, but in some cases (for example Object Oriented Scripting) there really isn't a forum we could easily amalgamate these into.

That aside, this is just my opinion, and doesn't represent site policy. Others may disagree. If you still feel strongly feel free to continue to argue your case.
[ September 26, 2006: Message edited by: Paul Sturrock ]
 
Shaan Shar
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Originally posted by Paul Sturrock:
Collections stuff is part of the core API, so probably belongs in the beginners forum. I don't see what a seperate Collections forum would add. One of the purposes of seperating things out into forums is to avoid potential confusion when one technology includes terms and concepts that are very close to another. I don't think including Collections in the beginners forum is confusing - I can't think of anything else in the core API that they could be confused with.



Dear Paul,

I am not convined by your argument, Well as I already stated that JAVA Collection will not be only for discussing Collections API's it may also be used for Data Structures with JAVA. As collections is not a light part of JAVA. Most of the complex memory orgranizations are been done in Collections API. So it will be benifitial for all of ranchers.

And about number of questions I have seen number of questions regarding JAVA Collections in multiple forums of JAVA Ranch.

Even Sun Microsystems also recognise it as a different Packages. It also given different section for Tutorial for JAVA Collections..

Then why cann't we have a different forum for JAVA Collections and Data Structures with JAVA.

I also invite more moderators to debate at the creation of this new Forum...
[ September 26, 2006: Message edited by: Ankur Sharma ]
 
fred rosenberger
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Portals and Portlets ------------ 860
Game Development ----------- 970
Object Oriented Scripting ---- 646


this statistic is meaninless without a little more data... over what time period were these questions posted? I think the 'Ranch was founded in '98, so theoretically, that means in the games forum, there is about one post every three days on this topic.

Now, i know the games forum is not nearly that old, but I think my point is still valid.
 
Shaan Shar
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Originally posted by fred rosenberger:


this statistic is meaninless without a little more data... over what time period were these questions posted? I think the 'Ranch was founded in '98, so theoretically, that means in the games forum, there is about one post every three days on this topic.

Now, i know the games forum is not nearly that old, but I think my point is still valid.


Well I like your efforts but if you do some more then you find that on an average every day you may find 3 post every day reagrding JAVA Collections.

And remember you have the Game Forum that's why there are such posts, otherwise I have seen so many posts regarding Tutorials on Game Programming.

Well I am not criticising Game FOrum, I am just explaining my interest.

As I told you, you may have a meeting with your team, and you may found so many entries of JAVA Collections.

Let me know if I am wrong with my Facts and Data Sheets.
 
Ilja Preuss
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Originally posted by Ankur Sharma:
What I have observed is there are so many forum which I also didn't see a considerable amount of questions specific to them.


Yes. For some of them it might have been a "mistake" to create them in the first place.

In the past, for some forums we actually decided to close them again, but that's not easy because it means that all the existing posts in that forum are lost.

As a consequence, we have become more reluctant to introduce new forums without significant evidence that they would get enough traffic.

At least that's my personal view on the topic.
 
Shaan Shar
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Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:


Yes. For some of them it might have been a "mistake" to create them in the first place.

In the past, for some forums we actually decided to close them again, but that's not easy because it means that all the existing posts in that forum are lost.

As a consequence, we have become more reluctant to introduce new forums without significant evidence that they would get enough traffic.

At least that's my personal view on the topic.


Well that means..that was not at all fruitfull as it was expected,
But still you don't have any reasons for denying the JAVA Collections Forum.

I am not able to get your meanings, why we cann't be more specfic, as the sun is.....

I am not asking to create forum for each and every section but atleast JAVA Collection and Data Strucure with JAVA are the topic which may really deserve the seperate Ranch Forum.

Well could you tell me why the forum has been created till now.

I can tell you according as per my understanding..

Till now the forum I have visited are really convinced me that it was really a need to create a seperate forum for this section.

But I really don't understand as per my facts and Data Sheet Collections related topics are really very-very often visible in Begineers, Intermediate, Advanced and SCJP Forum....

Then why cann't we create a seperate section for JAVA Collections.

Beleive me it will be really fruitfull, and you will find it usefull once it will be there.


That's my opinion, I cordally invite other moderators to please throw their views.

One more thing I want to request to all moderators. Please don't get influnced about what they have seen in the posts of other moderators.

When we are in public forum atleast I think they should really express their independent views.

They just tell me why SUN has created seperate sections for JAVA Collections.

Why they haven't collapsed the JAVA Collection with core java Section.

Please express your independent views....
 
Ben Souther
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I could see this working either way.

Threads and Synchronization are a core part of the Java API, (maybe even more so than collections) and the forum for those issues is doing fine.

On the other hand, the Java In General (JIG) forums aren't being inundated with collections issues and the UBB search engine can easily locate any threads with 'HashMap' or 'ArrayList' in them.

I think, in light of the fact that it's not easy to merge one forum with another if something doesn't work out, that it's probably better to leave the collections discussions in the JIG forums for now.
 
Shaan Shar
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Originally posted by Ben Souther:
I could see this working either way.

Threads and Synchronization are a core part of the Java API, (maybe even more so than collections) and the forum for those issues is doing fine.

On the other hand, the Java In General (JIG) forums aren't being inundated with collections issues and the UBB search engine can easily locate any threads with 'HashMap' or 'ArrayList' in them.

I think, in light of the fact that it's not easy to merge one forum with another if something doesn't work out, that it's probably better to leave the collections discussions in the JIG forums for now.


Well now one of the moderators have a light agreement on Seperate JAVA Collections. I am not saying it should be urgent, but it is not at all impossible.

well till now I must tell you that I use JAVA Ranch as one of the great JAVA Resource Center for it's specific sections.

Do you really think so, that searching by HashMap, Arraylist etc.. in UBB forum is that's all making it usefull.


In ranch [EDIT: ]I don't only post any question..That's not at all for my knowledge.

[EDIT]:
My concern was, If I am getting help from Ranch, there is not the only reason that, If i face any problem I just post the question here in Ranch and get the solution, I also take help in another means, by just visiting another forums for not any specific reasons but just to get know what is going on in that particular scetion.


Let's give you an example

Suppose If I am starting study for Struts, then I move to first Struts forum, in which there are so many problems are discussed, which I also would face if I do continue study.. but that is the benifit of Ranch, I got cleared already those problem before facing it.

I learnt many thing without posting any thread. Just beacause of that I was not aware of such topics but because other ranchers knew that, that's why they have raised that issue.

The same thing can be applied to any other forum e.g. JAVA Collections.

If you don't need any specific issue to get solved but you need in general issued faced by Ranchers, then it will be easy to visit seperate JAVA Collections Forum instead of searching in JIG, Intermediate or Advanced forum..

Don't you think so.??

[ September 26, 2006: Message edited by: Ankur Sharma ]
 
Gregg Bolinger
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Ankur,

The more I think about it, I can kind of see your point. I mean, we do have forums for IO, Sockets, Swing, JDBC which are still considered part of the core API.

I think the problem is that the Collections API fits so much with other issues. What I mean is, how many questions are there specifically about java.util.List out of the context of something else? If you could find some examples where specific questions were asked about any of the Collections stuff within it's very own context, that might help your case.

The other thing is, you are currently the only one asking for it. Do you have anyone that supports your request? We don't just make new forums on a whim but we do appreciate the suggestions. We just need more convincing maybe?
 
Ben Souther
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Do you really think so, that searching by HashMap, Arraylist etc.. in UBB forum is that's all making it usefull.

Yes, the search feature has been very helpful for me, especially for issues like this.

In ranch I don't only port any question..That's not at all for my knowledge.
I'm not sure what this means.
Maybe you could re-word it?


I don't disagree with you that a collections forum could be useful.
I think the issue that Ilja and the others had, is that there is also potential for harm in trying to pry collections from the Java In General (JIG) forums and that it wouldn't be easy to merge them back if it didn't work out.

In light of this, it's probably better to leave collections discussions in the JIG forums until and unless they start to overburden those forums.
 
Shaan Shar
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Surely that was a typo....

I have edited my earlier message......You can see it again...

Thankx.
[ September 26, 2006: Message edited by: Ankur Sharma ]
 
Ben Souther
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In ranch [EDIT: ]I don't only post any question..That's not at all for my knowledge.

[EDIT]:
My concern was, If I am getting help from Ranch, there is not the only reason that, If i face any problem I just post the question here in Ranch and get the solution, I also take help in another means, by just visiting another forums for not any specific reasons but just to get know what is going on in that particular scetion.


Got it, and I agree.
JavaRanch is, indeed, much more than an answer mill for people with pressing needs. I've learned a lot (a real lot) here by both browsing and by using the UBB search tool.
 
Jeanne Boyarsky
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Java Collections spans a number of different topics. In JiG - Beginners, people might wonder why this code throws an Exception: ArrayList list = null; ... list.add(); In Performance, someone might wonder about the relative efficiency of data structures. In JDBC, someone might wonder about the implications of a data structure on their SQL. In OO, someone might wonder about the design implications of different data structures.

What I'm getting at is that Collections are a tool that is used to solve a problem. Bunching all questions that have to do with Collections groups questions with disparate goals.

I'm not disputing that Collections are a separate topic area. Looking at Sun's tutorial, so are generics, 2D graphics, JavaBeans and reflection - among others. If we had a separate forum for every distinct topic, we could easily have 100's of forums - and that doesn't include J2EE.

So a rule of thumb is to only create a forum if we see a signficant need. Personally, I don't see that need. If you do, try coming back with some examples. Are there five posts withing the last few days that deal only with Collections and don't fit in their current forums? (I made up the number five for discussion sake - it is not a JavaRanch criteria.)
 
Shaan Shar
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Originally posted by Ben Souther:


Got it, and I agree.
JavaRanch is, indeed, much more than an answer mill for people with pressing needs. I've learned a lot (a real lot) here by both browsing and by using the UBB search tool.


Well Anyways,

If still you need some proof, then may be I am wrong person.

I was just trying to get an improved JAVA Ranch, and that is also not for my personnal Interest only. This is a public forum, that's why I thouhgt to improve this one in terms of Rich JAVA Resource.

But If I have been asked to give proofs. Then I am sorry, You (I am including all moderators) have this proof that there is 1 post in every 3 day on an average, but you are simply neglecting the facts for JAVA Collections and you are asking proof from my side..


But last not least, You all agreeed on some facts, but still something is stopping you. I don't know what....But in this thread I got disappointed.

Anyways Thankx a lot to all Moderators, who have took participation in this thread.

May be Paul will think it anytime.

PS:Anyways, If I wouldn't followed Be Nice Rule then moderators, may mark me PM.
[ September 26, 2006: Message edited by: Ankur Sharma ]
 
Shaan Shar
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???


Bump !!!

Still waiting for Paul's reply.......
 
David O'Meara
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Paul is sleeping. You're likely to get the same response from him though: Forums don;t get created unless there is a strong reason, and since Collections questions will still be asked and answered in the existing forums there is no requirement for a new one.
 
Ernest Friedman-Hill
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I should say Paul would say that if he concerned himself with such things, but he really doesn't. This kind of issue is handled entirely by your friendly staff.

As a longtime proprietor of the Java in General (Intermediate) forum, I can tell you right now that there aren't nearly enough questions specifically about the Collections framework to warrant a forum of its own. Those few that are, are invariably "which is faster, Iterator or get()?" or "which should I use, ArrayList or LinkedList?" These are FAQs, not the basis for a forum.

So let's drop this please.
 
paul wheaton
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I've been popping in and looking at this thread about four times a day. I think the staff did an amazing job - as always. I saw the request for me to chime in and I thought that the staff covered it so well, I would prefer to just let the thread go.

The only thing I saw that has not been commented on was Ankur saying "I am not convined by your argument" and my thinking that it is not the responsibility for anybody to convince you of anything. If you wish to have change, you will need to convince us! Sometimes a tiny suggestion is all it takes and we say "that's a damn good idea!" Other times, it might not sound worthwhile, but when somebody takes the time to explain it, we come around to thinking it is.

I agree with the staff. No new forum. There could be some small merit to having a new forum, but not enough merit.
 
saikrishna cinux
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well Mr Ankur Sharma, you are right!

there must be seperate forum for collection frame work as we have threads, and swings
there are lot of people asking questions in collections , in java intermediate forum

so i support ankur's view

and I aso request moderators to do this


thanking you
cinux
 
Ilja Preuss
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Originally posted by saikrishna cinux:
there must be seperate forum for collection frame work as we have threads, and swings
there are lot of people asking questions in collections , in java intermediate forum


As far as I can tell, both multi-threading and Swing are far more complicated topics than collections. (Well, unless you count the multi-threading issues of collections, which are better handled in the Threads forum anyway).

So I agree with Ernest - what we need most are a couple of good pages at faq.javaranch.com.
 
Alan Hermin
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hey ranchers..
The Collection API is great subject and i called it: core inside a core..
i mean i agree with who want separate froum for Collection..Whenever,Wherever you need Collection..and i do NOT know why there are: Java in General (beginner),Java in General (intermediate), and Java in General (advance),
why there are three forums,they must be at most two forums ,and what is the heck the three :general,intermadiate,and advance .
and I'am with Mr Sharma and the collection API must take its rights..
bye
 
Jason Cox
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Seems kind of presumptuous to say there "must" be a new forum.
 
Shaan Shar
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Originally posted by Jason Cox:
Seems kind of presumptuous to say there "must" be a new forum.


Could you come up with some more with/on your comments...

[ October 01, 2006: Message edited by: Ankur Sharma ]
 
fred rosenberger
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what is the heck the three :general,intermadiate,and advance .


there is no GENERAL forum. there are

Java in General: Beginner
Java in General: Intermediate
Java in General: Advanced

To my knowledge, there is no hard, set rule on what goes in where. What is Advaced to person A is a beginner to person B. We ask people make an attempt to put it in the right forum, so that hopefully they at least THINK about it. Then, if it ends up in the wrong forum, your friendly staff will move it to were they think it most approprate.

I believe what Jason is saying is that when you say "there MUST be", it sounds like you are demanding the forum be created, or telling the staff how to run the place. it's like i walked into your home and said "you MUST put a zebra stripped couch in your living room". Especially when a few days ago, Paul, the owner of the site, agreed with the staff there is not enough justification for the new forum.
 
Ilja Preuss
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Originally posted by Ala'a Hendi:
Whenever,Wherever you need Collection


The same is true for Strings and primitives. We also have regular questions about StringBuffer vs. String or auto boxing. That doesn't necessarily mean that we should have a Strings or a Primitives forum, to me.

I'm open for convincing arguments, but until now I haven't read one.
 
Deepak Bala
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A collection forum would not generate too much traffic. All collection questions can be redirected to the three java in general forums. I am not for the "I/O and Streams" and "JNLP and WebStart" forum either but that is not what is being argued about right now.

I think a new forum is needed only when the traffic is good and it is a branch of java. By branch i mean like... swing, awt, JSP, Servlet, etc.

Collections are not exactly a branch. They represent core java. Such questions can reside in the general forum. My 2c
 
vivien siu
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erm... I have nothing to say on Ankur's suggestion but as a forumer and one who always utilize the search engine provided here, I think I don't really like the search method because some topics I searched are not under one category but in other categories. Therefore having to search one by one category sin't really user-friendly.

Is it possible to make the search engine search under not just one but multiple categories at once?

My apologies for the off-topicness
 
Gregg Bolinger
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If you look towards the bottom of the search page, you'll see that you can also utalize our google search index. That will get what you desire.
 
Ilja Preuss
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Originally posted by vivien siu:

Is it possible to make the search engine search under not just one but multiple categories at once?


If I remember correctly, it's possible - but when we tried, it killed our server with a too high load.

As Gregg said, you can use Google to search the site, which works quite well.
 
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