Win a copy of React Cookbook: Recipes for Mastering the React Framework this week in the HTML Pages with CSS and JavaScript forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other Pie Elite all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Ron McLeod
  • Paul Clapham
  • Rob Spoor
  • Liutauras Vilda
Sheriffs:
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Junilu Lacar
  • Tim Cooke
Saloon Keepers:
  • Tim Holloway
  • Piet Souris
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Tim Moores
  • Carey Brown
Bartenders:
  • Frits Walraven
  • Himai Minh

Programmers longevity?

 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 961
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello to you all, ranchers, comrades.

I am about to be 30 soon. I have been a developer for the past 7 years. I really like been a developer, I think I'm good at it.

However, I see I've had to work so hard to keep updated and competitive. And I continue to work every day on it. I have not rested from studying since I was 7. Technology never rests. I have had to learn like eight different programming languages and to use many different development tools, and so many other nice things related to computing. And they all change every day.

I am facing the reality that soon I will not have the stamina to sustain this rythm of life for another 10 years. And when I loose this passion, I will be doomed!

What do you think? When we all loose it? When we loose the passion? What's our longevity?

I have to take it into account in order to start with another career or some kind of personal business before that happens. Maybe I can save some money and get a bike to delive pizzas or maybe the chineese guy in the store of the corner have some job for me. What do you say, guys?

Best regards,
Edwin Dalorzo
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 211
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I wish someone can answer this question. I feel the same way as you do e.g. consider the things we have to learn for persistence jdbc/sql/ejb1.x/ejb2.x/ejb3.x/jdo/hibernate/new persistence API etc and the list goes on for other tiers. Especially with the XML/config hell in J2EE which takes more than 50% of our time.

It is fun to learn new things when they work in the first attempt but it does not happen often. I am not sure if I can take this for a longer period of time. Sometimes I seriously consider switching from J2EE to J2ME. May be things are not changed as frequently there and maybe fewer config issues. Or maybe the grass is greaner on the other side. Who knows...
 
Edwin Dalorzo
Ranch Hand
Posts: 961
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well, I started with Java like a year ago, for the first time. I wish I could say I know half of all that stuff that you say you know.

I am working so hard to get good at this, but I do not see a light at the end of tunnel.

I am considering a switch to one of those fancy financial careers for my next decade.

I guess, against my will, I will have to drop the flag soon and leave another passionate developer to pick it up, because I am getting more and more tired day after day... and soon I will be an easy pray in the competitive world.

What do you think is good career switch for the next decade?
 
Author
Posts: 6055
8
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Edwin Dalorzo:

However, I see I've had to work so hard to keep updated and competitive. And I continue to work every day on it. I have not rested from studying since I was 7. Technology never rests. I have had to learn like eight different programming languages and to use many different development tools, and so many other nice things related to computing. And they all change every day.




This reminds me of a joke...

A blonde travels to Canada to seek her fortune as a lumberjack. She meets a foreman of a logging organization who offers to give her a job.

"Now, I hope you realize we expect you to cut down at least 100 trees a day," the foreman told her.

The blonde woman didn't see this as a problem, so she went out with the Chainsaw and did her best. She came back drenched in sweat.

"Geez lady, how many trees did you cut down?"

asked the foreman.

"6" she replied.

"What!? You have to do better than that. Get up earlier tomorrow!" So she did. Out she went with the chainsaw, she came back that night exhausted.

"How many this time?"

asked the foreman.

"12" she said. The foreman says, "That does it. I'm coming out there with you tomorrow morning!" The next morning, the foreman reaches the first tree and says, "This is how to cut down trees really quickly."

He pulls the rope on the chainsaw and it gives off a loud BRRRRRRUUUMMM. He notices the blonde is looking at him frantically, so he asks her what's wrong.

And she replies, "What the hell is that noise?"



All jobs are difficult when you do them inefficently. 8 different programming languages? I guess I know about 8. I've actively used maybe 3. 80% of my time was Java. Even when I was hands on I didn't know everything these was to know about Java. For example, I was doing EJB work in 2002-3. I didn't really know how to configure and EJB server. I could do the basics, the kinda thing you might read in a tutorial; the guy I was working with, who was more junior than me, did most of the configuration and then explained to me what he did. That sure beat spending 15 hours reading through manuals and books. Of course, there was a chance I may have needed that knowledge later, but by then I would've have learned it if I needed it.

Good employers hire smart people. Any bozo can learn the latest technology, but the skills used to create good software change less often. I still am happy to hire C++ (and now C#) developers to do Java. The OO principles are the same, and if you're not smart enough to be able to look up a new API to know whether it's foo.sendBar or foo.barSend[/i] you won't be working for me. OOA/OOD, design patterns, data structurs and algorithms, ability to speak and write clearly, understanding the SDLC, etc are all much more important than the latest technology and those skills tend to change much more slowly.

You'll burn out at your current pace; time for a new one.

--Mark
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 116
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
my suggestion . move up in the chain and do worthless things like Project mangaement
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 280
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

my suggestion . move up in the chain and do worthless things like Project mangaement



It's a strong statement to make - that Project Managers are worthless.
Is there a reason you feel this way, that you might want to share with us?

-Amit
 
Ali Hussain
Ranch Hand
Posts: 211
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Shipra Verma:
my suggestion . move up in the chain and do worthless things like Project mangaement


IMHO their job is more difficult than ours.
[ April 10, 2006: Message edited by: Ali Hussain ]
 
Edwin Dalorzo
Ranch Hand
Posts: 961
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I know Americans favor specialization and that is fine. But my country is much smaller and the market very diverse and highly competitive. In order to keep competitive you must know a few more things that those you need to know over there.

I have done all kinds of software and I have played all kind of roles with all kind of development tools. That's why I chose Java a year ago. It's been around for a while, and I would like to settle, if possible.

I have been working for Software Development companies, and maybe that's the problem, they always have new projects with new technologies. Now I am working for a another kind of company and finally I have been able to settle with Java for a while.

Maybe, somebody will invent something new one of these days and will have to start over again.

On the other hand. I am afraid that I myself have had bad experiences with Project Managers in the past, too. So, I guess I understand our fellow developer.

It really pisses me off when I work with a person who does not understand a bit of what is really happening but at the end takes all your credit for solving the problems. They are guys who talks with the clients, and the guys who talk with the bosses. Most of times they are the ones who see you work as mule, but typically they do not have the power to give you a salary raise, although they probably ear at least the double of your salary.

But I've had good project managers too, in seven years one. And he was good because he had to go out of the country almost all the time and I had to do all his job.

Not surprisingly I received all the credit for a good job that time. I guess I might like this of project administration, you know, getting away with the credit once in while.

It is not a worthless job. But what do you say of a person who asks:

- Hey, Edwin, do you know what is problem?
- Yes, sir. The problem is....
- And, Edwin, do you know how to solve it?
- Yes, sir. The solution is....
- OK, then do it! Let me know when it is finished.

Well, I can do that myself without much help.

Not my intention to offend good project managers. It is just that I guess we all expect project managers to be leaders, but most of times they are just very expensive secretaries. At least those that I have known.
 
Ali Hussain
Ranch Hand
Posts: 211
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Edwin Dalorzo:

Maybe, somebody will invent something new one of these days and will have to start over again.


"Ruby On Rails" will be knocking at your door sooner or later...
[ April 11, 2006: Message edited by: Ali Hussain ]
 
Edwin Dalorzo
Ranch Hand
Posts: 961
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I´┐Żll be watching you, as well as the other candidates postulated to take over the world.

Good luck!
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 336
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I work with a guy who is 60 yrs old and is a senior developer in our team. He loves programming and doesnt want to do anything else.

How's that for a longevity?
 
Edwin Dalorzo
Ranch Hand
Posts: 961
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Wow, pretty impressive. That guy really must know a lot about programming. He must have suffered all the technologial changes of the past 40 years at least.


I just hope the company I work for is willing to keep me when I am 60 years old, because when they hired me one of the guys who interviewed me told me that they just like to hire young people, because most of the times, the older guys have already reached the top of their career mountains and have lost the passion to grow.

I wish I never loose the passion for what I do.

Do you think that is inevitable?
[ April 11, 2006: Message edited by: Edwin Dalorzo ]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 776
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Edwin Dalorzo:
...

I wish I never loose the passion for what I do.

Do you think that is inevitable?

....



Edwin - I am 58 years old.

I wrote my first code in '67, FORTRAN on punched cards.

I "do" Java apps these days.

I still love programming, and am still doing it, learning every day.

Hang.

(Have you checked out Ruby?)

Guy
 
Marshal
Posts: 26750
81
Eclipse IDE Firefox Browser MySQL Database
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So you are my older twin, Guy. I didn't get started in programming until 1968 and that was Fortran on punched cards. But since then I have done a lot of things. Specialization? Heck no. Hibernate, JSP, Websphere administration, XSLT, interpreting open-source licences, FTP, source control, CSS, commodity taxation, the list goes on. Oh yeah, Java too. I even wrote a Cobol program once. I'm not ready to retire just yet.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 287
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You've been at this for 7 years, same as me, and this is a good time to be asking yourself what is your goal?

The problem I encounter too often is this market is that people get into software development thinking it's a great way to earn a good paycheck while being mentally stimulated in a way few jobs will ever offer. Nevermind that it can be tedious rather than stimulating, just depends on where you land. Then they get into the career and never think about what their long-term goal is.

Still, there always comes that point where you end up chasing the technology. What do you have to learn today, what do you have to learn tomorrow, and what skill became obsolete yesterday?

If programming is your lifeblood, chasing the technology is not a problem. I know guys who want to do nothing but code and I think that is great. However, if that is not for you then maybe it's time to look into software architecture or project management. You're at an ideal point in your career where you can still be hands on and contributing while moving in another direction. It is rarely an overnight process, but it is something you can transition to in the next year to three years.

Just keep in mind that no one who is any good at their job will have it easy. I know lousy architects and lousy project managers who don't do anything. However, I also know lousy programmers as well, and they don't work hard either. So if you think programming is hard work because you are a hard worker, don't expect things to get any easier in a different field.

Or you can get out of technology all together. However, I may not be a dedicated code monkey, I do love the technology field and don't ever want to leave. Some people dream of becoming the CEO of a company? I dream of becoming the CTO. I live for the technology side of business, regardless of its ups and downs or challenges. Maybe that is the real problem, you are not doing what you love.
[ April 11, 2006: Message edited by: Rob Aught ]
 
Edwin Dalorzo
Ranch Hand
Posts: 961
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Mr Allard and Mr. Clapham.

I indeed admire you for what you've done, being so long in the field and still ready for the fight, still working away.

I hope I can be like you some day.

And Mr. Aught thank you very much for your wise advise, with no doubt, the best I have received until now in the forum.

I do love building software, not just coding, the whole process in itself, sometimes I even think I actually should give me a rest. It is just that I started to learn Java a year ago, and the API is so big, and after working so hard, waking up so many days before dawn and after going to bed so many nights after midnight, and after reading so many books, and I still feel I am so behind my expectations.

I am in this field, and I like seeing when all those guys from Sun, and Microsoft and IBM and the others come out with some new fancy technological toys... and I just started to wonder if will some day I might loose the passion about all this. Precicely having in mind that if we all loose our passion for this everlasting chase of perfection, then I'd better plan when to leave the field.

But, after reading Mr. Allard's and Mr. Clapham's testimonies, I guess I will do my best to stick around and continue in this fascinating and never ending discovery of technology.

Thanks to you all. You've been of great help indeed. And I hope you guys stay around for another 60 years at least.

Best regards,
Edwin Dalorzo

PS.
I have not checked out Ruby, but I will certainly will.
[ April 11, 2006: Message edited by: Edwin Dalorzo ]
 
He was giving me directions and I was powerless to resist. I cannot resist this tiny ad:
the value of filler advertising in 2021
https://coderanch.com/t/730886/filler-advertising
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic