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J2EE Complete Solution - Multiple Vendors  RSS feed

 
Gregg Bolinger
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Let me begin this discussion with a request. Please do not turn this into a .NET vs. J2EE discussion. There are already plenty of those.
I was wondering if anyone thinks that it is feasable for Sun to design a complete solution rather than requiring Developers to outsource to different vendors for different parts of one solution.
For instance, in a .NET infrastructor, everything goes back to MS. End of story.
However, with J2EE there are so many options, which I agree is a good thing, that whoever is maintaining the system has several vendors to possibly contact if something were to fail.
Don't get me wrong. I love being able to choose what DBMS, Container, Application Server, etc. But in the long run, I think that .NET encoumpassing it all under one insitute is also very smart.
Any comments?
[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: Gregg Bolinger ]
 
Chris Mathews
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Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
I was wondering if anyone thinks that it is feasable for Sun to design a complete solution rather than requiring Developers to outsource to different vendors for different parts of one solution.

Before we could even begin discussing this you would have to define what a "complete solution" is.
Furthermore, I have a feeling that at least two vendors will meet your requirements: IBM and Oracle.
 
Gregg Bolinger
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When I say complete I mean DBMS, Application Server, JSP/Servlet Container, and J2EE SDK.
So does Oracle maintaine J2EE or does IBM? Do they use their own implementation of J2EE or do they still use Sun's?
It is still not a Complete Solution in my opinion. What DBMS does IBM use in their Solution?
 
Chris Mathews
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Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
So does Oracle maintain J2EE or does IBM?

J2EE is maintained by the JCP. Of which Oracle and IBM are both large contributing members.
Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
What DBMS does IBM use in their Solution?

Why DB2 of course. It is only the second largest database in terms of market-share behind Oracle (according to most reports).
Do you seriously think Sun could enter the DBMS market and be anything but a joke? They are too late to the game and the market is already saturated by big expensive products, we don't need another. Sun can't even become a major player in the Application Server market, which they helped to make...
[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: Chris Mathews ]
 
Gregg Bolinger
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Chris. Thanks for your help in and enlightenment. I don't know why DB2 slipped my mind.
Well, I stand corrected then. IBM and Oracle can provide a complete solution.
That's actually really good news to me.
Thanks again.
 
Tim Holloway
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I think what you're calling a "Complete Solution" is more like what's traditionally known as a Single-Vendor solution.
Usually it's considered in terms of practical applications, however, not in expecting that you can find total bliss just by selecting the right brand of development tools, no matter how much the tool vendor's architecture/marketing product manages to fold in OS's, DBMS's, servers and other subsystems.
After all, most businesses are expecting to get their benefits by using general ledgers, document management systems, ERP systems, CRM, and other business productivity apps. Very often, it's the choices made for the business apps that constrain what brands of OS, DBMS, etc. you'll be able to use.
 
Paul Done
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Many vendors are now making the platform play, having originally come at it from different angles...
eg. Microsoft .NET, Sun ONE, IBM WebSphere, Oracle 9i, Novell One NET.
All have their own O.S. (except Oracle), D.B. (except Sun and Novell), V.M., App Server, IDE, Integration Server and Messaging System, which are now bundled up and marketed under one 'integrated' platform umbrella.
Invariably there's also lots of other stuff in there too such as Portal Frameworks and various other middleware.
Currently each vendor can probably be differentiated by having a slightly different perspective on the 'platform'. Microsoft's slant is probably 'easy-to-use' development tools, IBM's is probably more runtime stability, Sun's slant is 'standards setter', Oracle's is data/information delivery, and Novell's is security/identity.
BEA could probably be included with their Weblogic platform, except they don't have either an O.S. nor a database of their own.
Now the real question is just how integrated the platform is, or is it just a re-branding of different products. Microsoft are as guilty of this as any of the other vendors in the list. .NET actually uses many different pre-existing products such as IIS, MSMQ, MTS, SQL Server, BizTalk, etc..
Paul
[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Done ]
 
Gregg Bolinger
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Originally posted by Paul Done:
.NET actually uses many different pre-existing products such as IIS, MSMQ, MTS, SQL Server, BizTalk, etc..
[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Done ]

Different products yes, but still one Company. So there is one intitity to fall back on.
 
Paul Done
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And this is no different for any of the other vendors discussed - this is exactly my point - they all have an umbrella of their own re-branded pre-existing products that they have maybe added a bit more glue to, some maketing story and maybe a cohesive look and feel - they are all claiming to be one vendor solutions. Apart from where highlighted in my previous mail - all the parts of the platform are their own.
Another part of a typical platform I forgot to mention is the Directory Server (eg. for LDAP, etc).
Paul
[ January 19, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Done ]
 
Paul Done
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Tim had a good point - by offering one vendor platforms these platforms are starting to become commodities - one vendor cannot differentiate their solution sufficiently from another vendor's solution - customers begin to assume that the platform is a given, and the price is forced down. Pretty soon these vendors will have to look at other ways to differentiate their solutions and may begin to look at providing vertical applications (eg. for the Oil industry) and/or horizontal applications(eg. Human Resources) which run ontop of these platforms.
Some vendors already provide vertical and horizontal apps (eg. 'Oracle Financials') but in most cases these are built on old proprietry technology and don't run on their own new flagship platform. eg. Oracle Financials runs on old Developer/2000 (SQL*Forms) technology which is based on PL/SQL and a fat-client/server model, and would have to be completely re-written to run on Oracle's 9i platform.
Whatever happened to IBM's Java based 'San Francisco' project - this was supposed to be a framework and set of Business Components for horizontal applications but in the last few years I've heard nothing about it?
http://www-3.ibm.com/software/ad/sanfrancisco/
Paul
 
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