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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Now if you want to offer me some money to become a Hindu, we can talk.


You cant be a Hindu
Not because there is no way of conversion, but because you wont fit in that society & phiolsphy as they wont abuse others religion even in the name of freedom of speech.
Cant you see, so many hindu are against conversion but they are not saying anything bad abt christians OR missioanry.
And dont be in the impression that what ever missionaries does is good OR christian book says is right.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

Yea right you are very tolerent and peace loving person.


I have to agree with you
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
......in America ....White House ...George Bush .....America


Why do you think that whatever America does is right ?? OR will be right for everyone.
In US teenage pregnancies might be common, why do you think that all nations in this world should have teenage pregnancies equal to US??
OR lot of other things which for US might be proud but for others it cant be.
Be happy in, as someone said, your version of freedom.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
Its sad, but true and you got to admit it.


Do you know whom you are talking to ??
I am tired ...... but still its strange that people can comment about a thing which they have not seen OR where they have never been.
NOW I wont come back here ....
Allah, give me more will power
 
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Ravish, you are thread-jacking!
Most of the posters in here oppising Jason and Tomas Paul, should keep in mind that Jason, Tomas and other posters in here are excellent thinkers. And most importantly, they have unbelievable amount of skills to twist your arguments and use it back at you. They are also good at misquoting you, or ignoring the actual point altogether and use your mistakes against you to defeat the actual point that you were trying to make.
Lets answer one point at a time, and lets be confident on what we are posting - with facts, documents and reliable weblinks to support - we could have shut them up at least 200 posts before.
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

Do you know whom you are talking to ??
I am tired ...... but still its strange that people can comment about a thing which they have not seen OR where they have never been.


Just to clear that for other readers, I think Ravish is being sarcastic. He is saying that I am trying to get Jason agree to a fact that I have first hand experience and proof about. He says, its he is tired, and he thinks its strange how some people (read Jason) talks about stuff that they have only read about, and still arguing against what some one else says about it with first hand experience!
Oops, did I just confuse you more?!
 
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:

I don't think so, Jason! Here is a BBC article on the Northern Ireland Police Recruitment that recently took place. Police recruitment 'will be 50:50'
I know the local sentiments and the history of Republic of Ireland and NI, because I am living in Republic of Ireland for last 2 years, just 45 minutes away by road from NI.
History shows that this is about the communal disharmony between Catholics and Protestants. This week RealIRA has declared a fresh start to their activities and have asked citizens to stay away from Army and Airforce bases in NI, so that they won't get hurt in RealIRA's operations.
Its sad, but true and you got to admit it.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ashok Manayangath ]


Oh poor Jason.. Dont cry.. naked truth will hurt sometime. Do you want us to discuss what is your so called "tolerant" socity is doing? Clear your mess first and then come and poke your nose in others matter.
 
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Hindu extremists getting berserked day by day even in this forum
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Non-violent means must be found to reach a peaceful agreement and that is what is being worked on today in northern Ireland.


True. There have been some setbacks to the peace process recently (with the IRA related news from Colombia, latest raid for alleged IRA communications without prior notice etc).
It is also really sad that the amount of violence and rioting going on in here (especially last summer) is totally unjustifiable from such an educated society with very high living standards.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ashok Manayangath ]
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

It amazes me to what extent educated people are willing to go in order to gain political power.


It amazes me to what extent missionary/church people are willing to go in order to convert people from other faith :roll:
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
Ravish, you are thread-jacking!
Most of the posters in here oppising Jason and Tomas Paul, should keep in mind that Jason, Tomas and other posters in here are excellent thinkers.


I think they have a hardcoded as well as shortwired logic. No matter what input you give the output will be, "You are wrong, your version is not based on facts, and we are right."
They only accept the facts that support their POV. Other facts are not facts but baseless allegations.


And most importantly, they have unbelievable amount of skills to twist your arguments and use it back at you.


Absolutely correct.


They are also good at misquoting you, or ignoring the actual point altogether and use your mistakes against you to defeat the actual point that you were trying to make.


Correct, they are adept at misquoting while at the same time acusing others of misquoting. I have replied many of their stupid arguments, pointing out the double standards that they use. They either changed the topic or did not reply at all.


Lets answer one point at a time, and lets be confident on what we are posting - with facts, documents and reliable weblinks to support - we could have shut them up at least 200 posts before.


But that's also what I am against. Why? why? why do we have to prove it to somebody who does not even care, who has no business, who has no idea what he is talking about, and whose notion of morality does not go beyond US, who have a superiority complex because they belong to a rich and powerful country?
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:

Why? why? why do we have to prove it


Of course there is no obligation to prove it, but it is our destiny to argue to protect our views and culture as long as there are other dominant societies. Agonies of being minority, may be!!
But the actual reason is because they all are our friends, geeks, programmers and fellow RANCHERS!!!
 
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On August 5, 1997, a "self awareness programme" was conducted by three visiting priests at Nirmala Convent in Haldwani, UP. Children, from ages 10 to 16 years, were locked in the church and made to repeatedly chant prayers.


I did lost my interest in this thread as same posts are just looping here, but this incidence posted by pakka forced me to post a reply, actually when this incidence happened, I was there in this town and I witnessed that incidence, the Father and some christian teachers locked the childerens inside the school church and many of the childrens also fainted, after that most of the parent take out there kids from that school.
There are many similar incidence in India caused by missionaries and people of other communities(fundamentalist from hindu/muslim community) which are wrong. I beleive people like Jason and Thomas should not support these kind of activities because they are wrong, you support those activities of missionaries just because you are also christian but those missionaries in India are not representing you or the whole christian community they are just part of the whole community they may be right they might be wrong but the thing is that we should not support any such kind of e of activity whether it happens in India or in America. Such as the incidence of 9/11 I strongly condemn those kind of activities. I will not support Bin Laden and group just because they are muslim we have to think differently they does not represent the whole muslim community but people like pakka blaims the whole muslim community for this


I think this says it all. Protect yourself? What a laugh. India will never become a first world country as long as attitudes like your's exist. Want to know why you have religious problems in India? Look in the mirror.



There are different kind of people with different attitudes everywhere, but you cannot generalise that due to few peole like that India will always remain third world, there were also people in America who beleives in racial superiority over blacks but America did progress and the attitude of the people also changed. We(Indians) are in progress and lately but surely we will achieve our goal.


Do you really wonder why India is still a third world country?


Well you have the freedom of expression so do I
"Do you really wonder why Americans are the most hatred people in the world"
 
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You guys all really need to see the movie "Guys and Dolls".
This is a story about a young missionary in some inner city. She is a member of the Salvation Army and she and her father have a mission where they provide food to anyone who wants it IF they will stay and listen to a Sermon.
Sounds just like what you are describing in India.
Of course in her case it was mostly drunks, gamblers and homeless people that came wandering in for a free meal, but the idea is the same.
Just to fill you in, the Salvation Army is considered to be a GOOD thing in America. I would guess just about every middle class family of most any religion has at one time or another donated a box of old clothes or stuff to the Salvation Army (Or its twin Good Will).
So when the story was told for a movie - they made it into a musical comedy. Frank Sinatra, Marlon Brando, I forget who played the female lead.
She ends up trading her agreement to go out to dinner with Marlon Brando in exchange for one dozen souls in need of salvation at a Sermon.
In this case of course they fell in love and got married and lived happily ever after. I don't recall noticing that anyone actually getting converted this way though :roll: .
 
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Thank you Ashok, Sameer, and Cindy for shedding some light, insight, and humour on the discussion. We are all different, we're all human, and above all, don't mis-judge an entire race or religion by the actions of a few individuals.
 
San Su
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Mr. Thomas and Jason,
Do you want to know how low some(if not all) missionaries go to convert people to their faith? Turn on the TV and search for a program from missionaries. I saw a program couple of days back (It amused me somuch). A gentleman in the stage asked a person standing close to the stage to come to the stage. That guy waving his hands and legs walking like a military man. This gentleman asked that guy how long he couldnt walk before he come to that program. Do you know what that guy said? "10 years" Well. I dont want to say what I thought. What do you say about these programs? If they openly cheat others, what else they can do behind the closed doors.. :roll: And if I point it out, what name will I get???
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
[QB]You guys all really need to see the movie "Guys and Dolls".
This is a story about a young missionary in some inner city. She is a member of the Salvation Army and she and her father have a mission where they provide food to anyone who wants it IF they will stay and listen to a Sermon.
Sounds just like what you are describing in India.


** Sigh ** **exhausted**
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
 
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:

I don't think so, Jason! Here is a BBC article on the Northern Ireland Police Recruitment that recently took place. Police recruitment 'will be 50:50'
I know the local sentiments and the history of Republic of Ireland and NI, because I am living in Republic of Ireland for last 2 years, just 45 minutes away by road from NI.
History shows that this is about the communal disharmony between Catholics and Protestants. This week RealIRA has declared a fresh start to their activities and have asked citizens to stay away from Army and Airforce bases in NI, so that they won't get hurt in RealIRA's operations.
Its sad, but true and you got to admit it.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ashok Manayangath ]


Either you misunderstood my point, or your knowledge of NI history is as good as some of your contrymen's knowledge of US history who are living here.
Let me rephrase so I'm making myself more clear. Religion is not the prime factor for the conflict between the Protestants and Catholics in NI. Religion certainly is a cultural factor which separates the two sides. However the conflict is not a battle of supremacy between religions, it is a conflict against oppression.
Very much condensed, read a book to fill in the holes if you are interested, but here you go.... The native Irish were Catholics. The King of England (a protestant) viewed the Catholic NI as a potential source of challenge against his rule (for reasons which go back to the Protestant Reformation). Remember that back then in Europe, religion was a political tool. In order to get a handle on the situation, the mass migration of (primarily) lowland Scots and English was encouraged. The Catholics were stripped of much of their power and much of their land. The native Irish lands were given to the new settlers by the Crown, who had to take an oath of allegiance to Protestantism. The native Irish became second class citizens in their own country. The Irish rebel, many settlers are killed, but the rebellion is put down and many Irish are massacred. This time all Catholic lands in Ulster are conficscated.
James II (a Catholic) in the meantime attempts to recatholicize his kingdoms but this pisses off the English noblemen and there is again conflict. It boils down to a confrontation between William of Orange and James' forces in NI. William wins.
From 1691 onwards penal laws dispossess Catholics and dissenting Protestants of their land and deny them religous freedom, voting rights and access to education. Ireland becomes a colonial economy, run by a small Protestant landowning caste who extract rent from the peasants in the form of foodstuffs and export it to England. It should be noted that there is a Presbyterian Protestant led revolution with aims of achieving emancipation for the Catholics, but it is also put down.
Jumping ahead to the Potato Famine... Enough food was actually produced, but it had to be sent off to England to pay rent. Over 1,000,000 people die and at least as many emigrate to the US. These and future immigrations explain why the large support for the IRA in the US, particularly in the North East US.
Anyway I'm not going to give you the whole history, you can read a book as well as anyone else I assume. I'm just trying to demonstrate that the actual religion is very secondary. The real issue is the oppression of one group by another in order to maintain a political power base.
However you are correct about one thing. While I have been to Ireland, I have not been to Northern Ireland. Growing up as a Catholic in the urban northeastern US where every other person is a descendant of the aforementioned Irish immigrants, you can be assured that I have been very much exposed to at least one side's view of this conflict. Anyway, just because a US person might not live over there, don't assume we know nothing of that conflict.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:
I beleive people like Jason and Thomas should not support these kind of activities because they are wrong, you support those activities of missionaries just because you are also christian ...


I'm not supporting these activities. If exactly what you claim is happening, I do not support those. I am however skeptical of much of what has been said here. Most of what has been saying here seems to be more an issue of oppression and persecution of minorities and the poor than anything else though. This is what I object to. Excuses for why such persecution and oppression is acceptable don't work for me. If you listen to much of what has been said here, it nothing but supremacist views, varying in degree by the poster. This is what I have a problem with.
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
Mr. Thomas and Jason,
Do you want to know how low some(if not all) missionaries go to convert people to their faith? Turn on the TV and search for a program from missionaries. I saw a program couple of days back (It amused me somuch). A gentleman in the stage asked a person standing close to the stage to come to the stage. That guy waving his hands and legs walking like a military man. This gentleman asked that guy how long he couldnt walk before he come to that program. Do you know what that guy said? "10 years" Well. I dont want to say what I thought. What do you say about these programs? If they openly cheat others, what else they can do behind the closed doors.. :roll: And if I point it out, what name will I get???


Sankar:
Whatever name you give these guys, I promise you I won't call you any names - it's your opinion. Deal? But don't imply that ALL missionaries are like that... just some.
Some of these guys are for real - that is, they really believe what they do is real, and some of them actually perform "miracles". Whatever - to you it was entertaining, but to them, they are spreading the word of God - they are (gasp!) trying to convert you!
The reason they were trying to convert you? Their belief system has a set of writings that tells them to, and they have chosen to use the airwaves to do so.
It may help you articulate your thoughts if I tell you that historically, these TV evangelists (Televangelists) are NOT as pure as the driven snow, and are often looked on by many Americans with ridicule. What do I think of these programs? I doubt that they convert anyone, and I don't see their worth. These people are on stage, and I question their values. But then that's just my opinion.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Sameer Jamal:
"Do you really wonder why Americans are the most hatred people in the world"


Nope, not at all.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
What do you say about these programs? If they openly cheat others, what else they can do behind the closed doors.. :roll: And if I point it out, what name will I get???


I personally think they are charlatans and snake-oil salesmen. Like Mark said, the majority of the population ridicules them, however there are people who believe in them. That is their right and their money that they choose to give. I would not deny them that right. They can even try to convert me (or "save" me as they would say) if they like. I would certainly not feel threatened by it, but I can't think of much they would have to say which might appeal to me.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Either you misunderstood my point, or your knowledge of NI history is as good as some of your contrymen's knowledge of US history who are living here.
Let me rephrase so I'm making myself more clear. Religion is not the prime factor for the conflict between the Protestants and Catholics in NI. Religion certainly is a cultural factor which separates the two sides. However the conflict is not a battle of supremacy between religions, it is a conflict against oppression.
Very much condensed, read a book to fill in the holes if you are interested, but here you go.... The native Irish were Catholics. The King of England (a protestant) viewed the Catholic NI as a potential source of challenge against his rule (for reasons which go back to the Protestant Reformation). Remember that back then in Europe, religion was a political tool. In order to get a handle on the situation, the mass migration of (primarily) lowland Scots and English was encouraged. The Catholics were stripped of much of their power and much of their land. The native Irish lands were given to the new settlers by the Crown, who had to take an oath of allegiance to Protestantism. The native Irish became second class citizens in their own country. The Irish rebel, many settlers are killed, but the rebellion is put down and many Irish are massacred. This time all Catholic lands in Ulster are conficscated.
James II (a Catholic) in the meantime attempts to recatholicize his kingdoms but this pisses off the English noblemen and there is again conflict. It boils down to a confrontation between William of Orange and James' forces in NI. William wins.
From 1691 onwards penal laws dispossess Catholics and dissenting Protestants of their land and deny them religous freedom, voting rights and access to education. Ireland becomes a colonial economy, run by a small Protestant landowning caste who extract rent from the peasants in the form of foodstuffs and export it to England. It should be noted that there is a Presbyterian Protestant led revolution with aims of achieving emancipation for the Catholics, but it is also put down.
Jumping ahead to the Potato Famine... Enough food was actually produced, but it had to be sent off to England to pay rent. Over 1,000,000 people die and at least as many emigrate to the US. These and future immigrations explain why the large support for the IRA in the US, particularly in the North East US.
Anyway I'm not going to give you the whole history, you can read a book as well as anyone else I assume. I'm just trying to demonstrate that the actual religion is very secondary. The real issue is the oppression of one group by another in order to maintain a political power base.
However you are correct about one thing. While I have been to Ireland, I have not been to Northern Ireland. Growing up as a Catholic in the urban northeastern US where every other person is a descendant of the aforementioned Irish immigrants, you can be assured that I have been very much exposed to at least one side's view of this conflict. Anyway, just because a US person might not live over there, don't assume we know nothing of that conflict.


Jason, I really laughed at your post. Oppresson by one group? on Political purpose? I will be damned. Just reread your post.. ROTF . Where did the oppression start? You hell bend on trying to say it is not religious problem. But... Thomas said how low politicians go to stay in power or grab the power in response to the religious problem NI. Do your anology fit in Indian case? Whatever happens in India is political problem? Do I have the right to say British socity is very intolerant??? :roll: or tolerance in British socity is a myth?? (This is your own word on Hindu socity)
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
 
Anonymous
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The problems such as castism and dowry that are there in our society will never go away by conversions. This is proven by the fact that both, castism and dowry, are rampant in Christians, Muslims.
These are social evils and can only be eradicated by improvment in our own culture and education rather than adopting some other religion.
We have enough problems already and conversions are only creating more.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:
The problems such as castism and dowry that are there in our society will never go away by conversions. This is proven by the fact that both, castism and dowry, are rampant in Christians, Muslims.
These are social evils and can only be eradicated by improvment in our own culture and education rather than adopting some other religion.
We have enough problems already and conversions are only creating more.


This is true. I know a friend who is nadar chiristian. I never bothered to ask.
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

Jason, I really laughed at your post. Oppresson by one group? on Political purpose? I will be damned. Just reread your post.. ROTF . Where did the oppression start? You hell bend on trying to say it is not religious problem. But... Thomas said how low politicians go to stay in power or grab the power in response to the religious problem NI. Does your anology fits in Indian case? Whatever happens in India is political problem? Do I have the right to say British socity is very intolerant??? :roll:



Sankar, I think you missed a key point in Jason's eloquent history lesson, namely that
in the past, religion was used for political purposes. The current warriors in NI are continuing to play the religion card, forgetting that it is, as Jason stated, rooted in politics and oppression.
You know, I don't know if this analogy fits in India's case, though I don't recall Jason trying to make that connection. I also didn't catch where Jason said that whatever happens in India is a political problem. (You should be careful with absolute statements like always, never, every, etc.)
Yes, you have a right to say British society is intolerant, but as always, statements made in this forum seem to demand some type of proof. For the record, which British society are you referring to? Which time period?
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:


Sankar, I think you missed a key point in Jason's eloquent history lesson, namely that
in the past, religion was used for political purposes. The current warriors in NI are continuing to play the religion card, forgetting that it is, as Jason stated, rooted in politics and oppression.
You know, I don't know if this analogy fits in India's case, though I don't recall Jason trying to make that connection. I also didn't catch where Jason said that whatever happens in India is a political problem. (You should be careful with absolute statements like always, never, every, etc.)
Yes, you have a right to say British society is intolerant, but as always, statements made in this forum seem to demand some type of proof. For the record, which British society are you referring to? Which time period?


I am really tired, So I couldnt response to each and every posts including your "miracle" post. But I will respond to this post and call it for some time.

Originally posted by Mark Milan:
Sankar, I think you missed a key point in Jason's eloquent history lesson, namely that
in the past, religion was used for political purposes. The current warriors in NI are continuing to play the religion card, forgetting that it is, as Jason stated, rooted in politics and oppression.


No, I didnt miss any point. You are the one twisting his logic for your need.

in the past, religion was used for political purposes. The current warriors in NI are

. Why didnt include the current in your BOLD statment? Yes, if you say this is political problem, the same analogy applies to India. In India, Religion was used for political purpose past and present and I think it will be used in the future.
For the second para in your message, reread my post. Do you see the question mark?


Yes, you have a right to say British society is intolerant, but as always, statements made in this forum seem to demand some type of proof. For the record, which British society are you referring to? Which time period?


Good.. Now you start accepting my point INDIRECTLY. It is stupid to generalize the whole population (atleast for me and where I came from). I asked that question to him because he said "tolerance in hindu socity is myth". Did you care to ask him any proof? :roll: hell no..
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

or your knowledge of NI history is as good as some of your contrymen's knowledge of US history who are living here.
One of your many methods of blaming others to emphasise your position without providing facts!
Well, I will shrug it off my shoulder with good belief that it is still better than that small highly biased CNN window view of India that you have and at least as much as you know about other things in the world. We have that thing called 'internet' in India too, if you haven't noticed yet!

Let me rephrase so I'm making myself more clear.

Not necessary. Your first post was clear enough. You said : " If you look into the situation in Northern Ireland, you will see that the problems are not religious, they are cultural and political. They are definitely not fighting for or in the name of religion. Religion really plays little if any part at all in that conflict. "
It is wrong, and absurd. Ask a Irish gentleman or a Scottish person in this forum to clear your doubts if you need to. I don't need to read the rest of your post, because its just a version of the NI history as you have been 'told' and as you want to believe - it may be true anf if it is, I know it already.
[QB}
Religion is not the prime factor for the conflict between the Protestants and Catholics in NI.
[/QB]
LOL. Yeah, they are calling themselves Catholics and Protestants only because they dont want themselves to be called Black and White of a Chessboard! May be they should be called A and B, which is more convenient than Catholics and Protestants. Why didnt they call themselves Scotts and Irish then? They still call Welsh as Welsh and Scotts Scotts and Irish Irish in this part of the world. Give me a break!
Political gains, I see! I understand Sin Fein or other nationalist and loyalist parties might have an eye on the political aspect of this conflict. Are you telling me that is the reason why a road leading to a Catholic school blocked by Protestant parents last summer? Or was it vice versa? In any case, what ever be your view of this issue Jason, step down from that 'self credited Whitehouse spokesman role', re-read the history, talk to a irish or scott or a British, or still better ask some one from NI - they will give you the actual picture. How religious intolerance tarnishes peace and stability of an entire region, and of course how politicians makes the best of it.
I am sad that its this way, but NI is a great bunch of counties and full of really good people, except for some fanatics.
[/QB]

 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
I asked that question to him because he said "tolerance in hindu socity is myth". Did you care to ask him any proof? :roll: hell no..


In reference to the NI comments, I'm sorry if you lack the ability to objectively study history. But back to the topic at hand... I never claimed anything about "Hindu society". I did claim that apparently secularism in India is a myth. You seem to be backing that up by equating India to Hindu society. If secularism were more than a catch phrase, I'm don't think we have that mistake made. If you are not equating India to Hindu society, then you must be saying that there exists a greater Hindu society inside India, which somehow must stand apart from the secular Indian society. If that were the case, then again secularism would be a myth, as the various religions choose to hold themselves apart from society as a whole.
As for the tolerance of some in your society being a myth (I'll let you choose the definition for "your society"), I guess it would depend on whether or not the words of yourself and some others here are typical or atypical. Since some of you have claimed your views are typical, if we accept that, then in that case there would seem to be a decided lack of tolerance displayed.
On another note... I notice the increased attempts by you and your posse to try to make this personal, and in some cases to deflect attention away from what we've been discussing. It wouldn't have anything to do with the total inability to defend your positions, would it?
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
or your knowledge of NI history is as good as some of your contrymen's knowledge of US history who are living here.
One of your many methods of blaming others to emphasise your position without providing facts!
Well, I will shrug it off my shoulder with good belief that it is still better than that small highly biased CNN window view of India that you have and at least as much as you know about other things in the world.


<Yawn> Yet again you try to make things personal. :roll:

We have that thing called 'internet' in India too, if you haven't noticed yet!


What percentage of your population has access to the Internet?

Not necessary. Your first post was clear enough.


So you are not able to debate based on facts I see. You are not interested in listening to people you are debating as they try to make their point to you. You would much rather fixate on particular words either taken out of context, not understood by yourself in the first place, or not presented clearly enough by me. Whatever works for you. Just to clue you in though, debates are usually held in order to present positions and understand people. If you are not interested in that, why do you bother even posting?

Yeah, they are calling themselves Catholics and Protestants only because blah blah blah


If you choose to read my post then the answer to that is obvious.
 
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Jason:
I can understand that the indians are angry about your style of debating, which here is sometimes quite binary for my taste.
Remember to have recently read about some investigation about what germans think about americans and vice versa.
Very prominent in the american list was the issue that:
- Germans claim to know anything about the role of the black people in the US and they have no idea.
I feel its the same issue in this debate here: Every society is more or less secular and its quite gradual and complex. For example I know friends of my parents which have 98% catholic friends (exception is my father). Is Germany a religiously intolerant country because of that?
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
You would much rather fixate on particular words either taken out of context, not understood by yourself in the first place, or not presented clearly enough by me. Whatever works for you.


Aah, for once I tried your way of debating by ignoring the actual point or quoting only the part that supports my argument, and it worked!
This is exaclty what all other posters have been trying to say here. Couple of hundred posts back I posted some specific questions twice and you and others ignored it very conveniently.
No more questions!
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

No, I didnt miss any point. You are the one twisting his logic for your need.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]


At the risk of re-hashing, the original NI/India analogy was made by Aniruddha - �I hope many will agree that same is true for religious problems elsewhere in the world ..say Ireland�. This was in response to Thomas� "The religious problems in India are created by people who are intolerant to other religious beliefs"
This led to a sidebar on NI, at which point Sankar, you were ROTFL at Jason�s long history lesson. Perhaps you were laughing too much, because I had a bit of a problem getting the gist of your thoughts; it appeared to me that maybe you missed his point, and I wished to help you understand. You say you did not miss his point - thanks for clearing up that misunderstanding. However, I am interested in knowing which logic I am twisting for my own need. Frankly, I don�t see it.


. Why didnt include the current in your BOLD statment? Yes, if you say this is political problem, the same analogy applies to India. In India, Religion was used for political purpose past and present and I think it will be used in the future.


If you believe my point would be made clearer by the bolding of the word �current�, then I will remember that for future use.
One of the interesting points about analogies is that people often say �this is analogous to such-and-such� and then leave it at that, implicitly asking the listener/reader to provide their own analogies. The problem lies in the fact that you and I may derive different analogies from the same story. Are the native Indians analogous to native Irish? Are the British Landowners analogous to British Indian Colonials? If so, I don�t see an analogy, since the British are gone from India, yet they remain in NI. You can argue the truism of that statement (that the British are gone from India), but the fact remains that there is no Indian Republican Army fighting for the freedom of India by killing British soldiers.
When you say that �In India, religion was used for political purpose past and present and I think it will be used in the future�, you will get no argument from me. Replace �India� with �Northern Ireland� (and I would hope you agree with that statement) and one can draw a similarity (both countries use religion for political purposes). This is not a bold statement, but how religion is used in the countries, and the history of the conflict in the countries can not be boiled down to a single statement that applies to both cases. At least, I can�t do it. A man�s got to know his limitations.


For the second para in your message, reread my post. Do you see the question mark?


Yes, I re-read your post, however, I see several question marks. Rather than making me guess at a single one, and perhaps misconstrue your meaning, perhaps answering the question directly would help clear things up.


Good.. Now you start accepting my point INDIRECTLY. It is stupid to generalize the whole population (atleast for me and where I came from). I asked that question to him because he said "tolerance in hindu socity is myth". Did you care to ask him any proof? hell no..


As for believing that tolerance is a myth� my view is that no society (even one portrayed on Star Trek) will ever have perfect tolerance. I can accept the statement that the Hindu society is tolerant, but again, it comes down to degree. There is intolerance mixed with the tolerance � people are people. I do not accept the statement that �Tolerance in Hindu society is a myth�, because there is someone out there that can prove it wrong. I find no point in arguing the level or degree of tolerance � someone will find a case that bolsters their argument for or against. No matter how black and white you see the world, reality is grey.
Axel said it well - the "binary debating style" is not for his taste. I would venture to say that it does not sit well with many of us, though we may practice it ourselves to some extent. I repeat - no matter how black and white you see the world, reality is grey.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
[QB]
What percentage of your population has access to the Internet?
[QB]


Another stupid argument. A person who has internet access has internet access. And if he is debating on an online forum, he obviously has internet access. How does it matter even if the rest of the population has never seen a computer???
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:

Another stupid argument. A person who has internet access has internet access. And if he is debating on an online forum, he obviously has internet access. How does it matter even if the rest of the population has never seen a computer???


Jason asked a question which nobody seemed to want to answer. Frankly, if you're going to rant on Jason's narrow CNN view of India (which currently includes - and this can't be denied - on-line discussions with people in India, more than can be said for most Americans), why are you restricting his information flow? Pointing out that India has internet is informative (albeit of the "so what?" variety), and his request for more information is summarily dismissed. I wonder why.
While Jason may have intended his question to be an argument, (a point I don't see at this time), I would not think his argument was; "Since I don't believe there is internet in India, I can't be discussing topics with real Indian people." Jason, correct me if I'm wrong.
I fail to see how pointing out that India has internet access proves anything other than India has internet access. It was used in the context of Jason's view of India is limited and needs expanding.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
I can understand that the indians are angry about your style of debating, which here is sometimes quite binary for my taste.


I won't argue with you. Certain things are or should be very black and white though. Not everything is a shade of grey. If we go back to the begining, or at least take a good look at what I've been saying throughout, my objections were to a poster's support for people who murder innocents. The reasons given by him and the people who rushed to support his position were often blatant displays of bigotry, extremism, and supremacy. The fact that one group is of one religion and another group is of a different religion means little to me. My opinion is the same regardless.
Now the topic has meandered since then, and some of us who have an understanding of Christianity have been commenting on how we disagree with their characterization of what forced conversion is. This lead us to see that in addition to the bigotry, extremism, and supremacy, there was blatant classism (caste-ism if you prefer) and a lack of willingness to respect the personal choices of others. There was also shown a very high-handed "we know what's best for the poor and tribals and we will dictate for them" that has been repeatedly displayed.
They constantly throw together actions which are taken by some Indian Christians along with all missionaries. They seem to be one and the same to them. Do I doubt that there are some unethical activities undertaken by Christians in India? Not at all. What I do doubt is some of the blanket characterizations that have been made, as well as their characterizations of the motivation behind attacks on Christians and missionaries.
There are certain moral positions which people shouldn't waiver from, imho. If that comes off as something being viewed in terms of black-and-white, so be it. If arguing against things like extremism, bigotry, and supremacy pisses people off, I sure won't lose any sleep over it.

Remember to have recently read about some investigation about what germans think about americans and vice versa.


Sounds interesting. Do you have a link to it in English?
 
Axel Janssen
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Well. I did not read the whole thread. Lots of work. Maybe you guys just don't not understand each other. Its so very complex. There are so many issues. I think that lots of colonialistic action of europe started with the same pattern as aztec raid of Her�n Cort�s.
He said to help some poor opressed tribe on the atlantic coast of mexico. And 2 years later all mexico was under his control.

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Sounds interesting. Do you have a link to it in English?


No english. Its really interesting. I thought to post here my own traduction, but then I forgot. I will post if I find it.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:

Pointing out that India has internet is informative (albeit of the "so what?" variety), and his request for more information is summarily dismissed. I wonder why.
While Jason may have intended his question to be an argument, (a point I don't see at this time), I would not think his argument was; "Since I don't believe there is internet in India, I can't be discussing topics with real Indian people." Jason, correct me if I'm wrong.
I fail to see how pointing out that India has internet access proves anything other than India has internet access. It was used in the context of Jason's view of India is limited and needs expanding.


1. The original poster meant, I think, to say that other people discussing on this forum have internet access and can know stuff without actually setting foot in another country just Jason or Thomas are doing. May be they have been to other countries but not in India about which we are talking about here.
2. I'll bet that his question, "What percentage of your population has access to the Internet?" was not a genuine request for information but a satire. I think that because this question has no relevence in the discussion. Also, I don't think that you are so naive to believe that his was a genuine request for information.
 
Anonymous
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Sorry, sarcasm. Not satire.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:

Another stupid argument. A person who has internet access has internet access. And if he is debating on an online forum, he obviously has internet access. How does it matter even if the rest of the population has never seen a computer???


Which argument would that be? It's a simple question. I don't expect an exact figure. Either answer it or don't. I find the hostility displayed to the question very interesting though.
 
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