McCain, Obama, and Clinton are in favor of increasing the H-1B quota.

[S. Palanigounder]

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2008-02-14/us/h1b-race-begins-april-quota-increase-future.htm

Are you still telling your kids to learn computer science and engineering?

[Gabriel Claramunt]

Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:
http://www.workpermit.com/news/2008-02-14/us/h1b-race-begins-april-quota-increase-future.htm

Are you still telling your kids to learn computer science and engineering?

What do you mean? If my kids like CS and engineering, by all means I'll tell them to do it! (Of course, I would love if they choose software engineering)
[ February 27, 2008: Message edited by: Gabriel Claramunt ]

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:
Are you still telling your kids to learn computer science and engineering?

Absolutely! the vast majority of those foreign workers are not threat to good, US trained engineers. (I'm not going to get into this yet again, you can search for my reasons in this forum.)

--Mark

[Gabriel Claramunt]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:


Absolutely! the vast majority of those foreign workers are not threat to good, US trained engineers. (I'm not going to get into this yet again, you can search for my reasons in this forum.)

--Mark

Unless they come from a small and (almost) unknown south american country!

[S. Palanigounder]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:


Absolutely! the vast majority of those foreign workers are not threat to good, US trained engineers. (I'm not going to get into this yet again, you can search for my reasons in this forum.)

--Mark

Mark,

If you got your job because of your knowledge and skills (not connections), you can be easily replaced by a H1B with equally good English (maybe with some accent) and better technical skills. Your company will pay the H1B 20% or less of your salary. The H1B would work 50% longer than you. I would think it is a very good deal for you company. Plus, the bodyshops always help your managers under the tables...

[Paras Jain]

Your company will pay the H1B 20% or less of your salary. The H1B would work 50% longer than you.

Rate and work hours may have some impact in hiring decision, if out of two options both of them are almost the same in terms of competency, talent and knowledge. But it is very hard NOT to choose a good, strong and competent person because of its work status and rate.

the bodyshops always help your managers under the tables...

Well, even IF it is true for some H1B bodyshoppers(I am not saying it is true because I am neither a body shopper nor an employer or the manager ) but I don't understand why it can't be true for any other job consultants who don't deal with H1B workers.

For the original concern, By all means let your kids pursue whatever they want to pursue. And by all means Computer Science if they want.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:

If you got your job because of your knowledge and skills (not connections), you can be easily replaced by a H1B with equally good English (maybe with some accent) and better technical skills. Your company will pay the H1B 20% or less of your salary. The H1B would work 50% longer than you. I would think it is a very good deal for you company. Plus, the bodyshops always help your managers under the tables...

No, I couldn't easily be replaced. I've met hundreds of H1-B's from India and China and a few from Mexico. I've seen their resumes, I've talked to them. As I've indicated elsewhere in this forum (again, search if you want to see the details, I'm not going into it yet again), they are by and large not as strong as US educated engineers. Simply said, they are not a thread to good US engineers. I'm sure there are some who are a threat, but they are so few, I'm not concerned.

--Mark

[Ram Deshpande]

Today, corporate world is going to do a cost cutting either making manual process to automation or either hiring H1B consultant largely from Indian nationality.
Indian IT Industry is becoming more and more mature currently and in future, it will defiantly threat to all ONSHORE center.
This is not my personal suggestion but KPMG has advice to one of my client to do more off shoring to reduce cost. In effect, client has decided to cut 1000 jobs over a period of time.
Today, IT has on the way to INDIA and eventually business as well.


Ram

[Matt Brown]

Originally posted by Ram Deshpande:
...
Today, IT has on the way to INDIA and eventually business as well.


Ram

Ram, Are you suggesting American kids should not go to science, engineering, and even business schools because the jobs in these areas will be offshored to
INDIA? What options American kids will have? Medical, Law, Military schools?

[Mark Spritzler]

One word.

FUD

Don't waste time arguing this stuff, it is all FUD.

Mark

[Ram Deshpande]

Talent is always recognizes in any situation. Current IT situation @ Onshore is becoming more critical because of �off shoring� irrespective of QUALITY. Corporate may retain highly skilled TECHI for a short run but not for long run. Similar QUALITY may exist or FORCED to exist in FUTURE @ off shore.
Still I would like to go with Mark and lets TIME decides about FUTURE of every one.

-Ram

[Ulf Dittmer]

Not even FUD, just uninformed speculation where one sentence contradicts the next.

[Henry Wong]

I remember during the eighties, being told that my job will eventually be out-sourced to lower paid workers, working in large rooms, from lower cost-of-living states like Nebraska. During the nineties, this shifted to Mexico, then India, then China, etc...

In the last 20 to 30 years, the story has always been the same -- it is only the location where my job will go to that has changed.

Still I would like to go with Mark and lets TIME decides about FUTURE of every one.

If TIME will decide, she is sure not being quick about it...

Henry

[Ernest Friedman-Hill]

Originally posted by Henry Wong:
I remember during the eighties, being told that my job will eventually be out-sourced to lower paid workers, working in large rooms, from lower cost-of-living states like Nebraska.

I remember that. At the time I was a big advocate of preemptive military action against Nebraska. I feel a little sheepish about that now.

[Rambo Prasad]

I've met hundreds of H1-B's from India and China and a few from Mexico. I've seen their resumes, I've talked to them. As I've indicated elsewhere in this forum (again, search if you want to see the details, I'm not going into it yet again), they are by and large not as strong as US educated engineers...

Mark,

I tried to locate the thread which details the reasons that makes you think so...I am just curious to know the reason since I have a H1-b and still pondering whether it is really worth going there...

If you don't mind can you please give me the link to your post...

[Srikanth Basa]

Rambo, here is the reason
After having read this, I don't expect an average H1B worker to pose any threat to (atleast) Mark.

[Rambo Prasad]

Rambo, here is the reason
After having read this, I don't expect an average H1B worker to pose any threat to (atleast) Mark.

Agreed..I acknowledge that his profile looks exceptional..But I would like to know in specific what are the attributes that gives a US educated guy the perceived edge over others..?
[ March 03, 2008: Message edited by: Rambo Prasad ]

[Sandip Sankeshwar]

Dude,we learned everything by mugging up the stuff.Be it Data structures in college or Pythagorus theorem in school.Our thinking has become limited ,its not our mistake its educational fault.We produce largest number of scintists but you know about their results.
Where ever this rote learning was absent we produced good esults:Music,instruments playing,art,painting,culinary
See around and you see lot of artists ready to show their talent but not true for mathematicians or computer scientists.

[S. Palanigounder]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:


No, I couldn't easily be replaced. I've met hundreds of H1-B's from India and China and a few from Mexico. I've seen their resumes, I've talked to them. As I've indicated elsewhere in this forum (again, search if you want to see the details, I'm not going into it yet again), they are by and large not as strong as US educated engineers. Simply said, they are not a thread to good US engineers. I'm sure there are some who are a threat, but they are so few, I'm not concerned.

--Mark

Mark you are smart, but you can still be replaced by H1Bs.
Because you are from MIT, you are expensive. Remember cost is the only reason for H1B.
Assuming you know a lot of technical and business details of your company that H1Bs do not know. Before you are replaced, you boss would force you to give a 4-week "knowledge transfer" session for a group of the H1Bs. You must tell them everything you know completely and clearly and must not mislead them. Otherwise, your company or the bodyshops can ask FBI to look after you and your family. Do you know how much the bodyshops have spent on both parties in US election? They will ask for the returns.

On the other hand, Do you think the people from an engineering department of a state university (not Ivy League+2) deserve to be replaced by H1Bs?

[Rambo Prasad]

Mark you are smart, but you can still be replaced by H1Bs.
Because you are from MIT, you are expensive. Remember cost is the only reason for H1B.
Assuming you know a lot of technical and business details of your company that H1Bs do not know. Before you are replaced, you boss would force you to give a 4-week "knowledge transfer" session for a group of the H1Bs. You must tell them everything you know completely and clearly and must not mislead them. Otherwise, your company or the bodyshops can ask FBI to look after you and your family. Do you know how much the bodyshops have spent on both parties in US election? They will ask for the returns.

No I strongly disagree...There are some people who are inevitable for the success of the company.Any code monkey cant be a replacement to an expert.Just because someone is available cheap it doesn't mean he can be a suitable replacement for a well established person in the field...
Cost is not the only consideration for a company...It is like being penny wise and pound foolish...
[ March 03, 2008: Message edited by: Rambo Prasad ]

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:

Mark you are smart, but you can still be replaced by H1Bs.
Because you are from MIT, you are expensive. Remember cost is the only reason for H1B.

I'm expensive? While you're looking over my W-2 statements can you finish my taxes for me?

Seriously, you've clearly never had P&L responsibility for a team. Most companies don't care about how "expensive" someone is (you seem to be using the term "expensive" to mean simply high cost), they care about how "cost effective" someone is. It was postulated by Books and proven by DeMarco & Lister that there is a 10:1 ratio between the best developers and worst. There is a 2:1 factor between the better and worse halves of the distribution curve--which is roughly Gaussian. The cost curve is also Gaussian, but tends to be much tighter. This means that when you hire on the high end of the spectrum, while they are pricey, they are also much more cost effective than those elsewhere on the curve. If a team of 3 $200k developers can do what a team of 10 $80k developers can (in a pure free market labor market), you can be certain the former will be hired over the latter. (For the record, hiring on the low end tends to be very ineffective.)

--Mark

P.S. Since Mr. Prasad couldn't find my previous comments (there are actually scattered across a few potings) I'll summarize them in this thread shortly.

[Mark Herschberg]

As for my lack of concern over H1-B', Mr. Sankeshwar was on the right track (if I'm understanding his colloquialisms correctly).

Building software is not a technological problem, it's a sociological problem (ref: Peopleware). Imagine building a basic internal accounting system for a MNC. It's an accounting system, not rocket science, you don't need a PhD; just about everyone can pretty much understand how it works. And yet this type of project often fails. Why? Because the specifications are wrong (incomplete, inconsistent, inaccurate, etc.), there are unexpected complications (e.g. when trying to handle both US and European accounting practices). There will be a legacy system in one of the country's offices which is different from everywhere else and it turns out to be way too complicated to integrate the way the other systems are. There will be a team who doesn't like this new project and will drag their feet in working with you. There will be a vendor who simply won't deliver on time putting the project at risk. There will be lots and lots of changes to the project, the requirements, the goals, and the constraints as the project progresses. If you've ever worked on on a project lasting more than a few weeks your know this is true.

And if you know hibernate inside and out, how will it help you solve any of the above problems? You can naively assume the PM or VP of Eng will deal with this. but the better engineers will proactively find solutions and not simply wait to be told what to do from up above. Better yet, they will anticipate these problems and find solutions and defenses before the problems surface.

What I'm about to write next is a generalization. It's not true for everyone from India and there are no doubt plenty of exceptions, but by and large this has been my experience. The problem with H1-B's from India is that they tend to have been educated in India and the Indian education system simply doesn't encourage this behavior. Many come out having book knowledge, having memorized a lot of Java information, but can't tackle the issues I outlined above. The often have the mentality of "I have a specific role and do the following tasks" as opposed to--at the risk of using a rather hackneyed phrase--being good at thinking outside the box.

I hire engineers based on four things: 1) raw intelligence, 2) the ability to deal with problems beyond pure technical issues, 3) the ability to communicate with other people (engineers and non-engineers), and 4) someone who is going to tell me I'm wrong and propose alternatives. I have found many developers trained in India to be weak on 2, 3, and 4.

That's the edge those trained in the US tend to have. if you know Java inside and out, you are a code monkey and you can be replaced by any other code monkey. If you know how to solve problems and can work (e.g. communicate) with others in your company and help them solve their problems using technology, you're less at risk--at least until more places learn to create true engineers and simply those who can turn on code on cue.

Again, these are generalizations and you can obviously find people in both India and the US who don't fit the generalization, but by and large this is why I'm not worried.

--Mark

[Joe Ess]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
1) raw intelligence, 2) the ability to deal with problems beyond pure technical issues, 3) the ability to communicate with other people (engineers and non-engineers), and 4) someone who is going to tell me I'm wrong and propose alternatives.

Every time someone asks in this forum what the hot skill is I want to post what you've said above. Anybody can learn a technology in a few days, but there's a lot more to efficiently/effectively programming than, well, just programming (or today's New Hot Skill).

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Joe Ess:

Every time someone asks in this forum what the hot skill is I want to post what you've said above. Anybody can learn a technology in a few days, but there's a lot more to efficiently/effectively programming than, well, just programming (or today's New Hot Skill).

You might appreciate my posts here, here, and here, to just list a few examples. :-)

--Mark

[Joe Ess]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

You might appreciate my posts . . .
--Mark

*golf clap*
These are some ideas that I'm just beginning to articulate. I liked what this article had to say (want an RSS feed of my baby's picture blog?) but there's more, the social side of it, that you've latched onto.
I've had great feedback from my users (mostly nurses) because I'll sit at their desks for a day every once in a while. Eventually they'll ask "why can't this app do X?" and I've got 6 more months of work.

[Jeanne Boyarsky]

Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:
Before you are replaced, you boss would force you to give a 4-week "knowledge transfer" session

It's not that easy. Giving someone a bunch of facts isn't enough. Experience matters and it takes more than 4 weeks for new people to build up that level of experience on a job. This has nothing to do with the H-1B. It is true when you get a new hire onsite too.

Even if someone can do most of the job, it is unlikely they are going to forsee everything that can come. That takes time.

I think Mark explains things well too!

[Henry Wong]

Mark you are smart, but you can still be replaced by H1Bs.
Because you are from MIT, you are expensive. Remember cost is the only reason for H1B.
Assuming you know a lot of technical and business details of your company that H1Bs do not know. Before you are replaced, you boss would force you to give a 4-week "knowledge transfer" session for a group of the H1Bs.

Besides what everyone said so far... I have to say, I can't stand this "doomsday" scenario. Stop it. It is just plain wrong.

There is a big difference between a cost center and a profit center. There is a big difference between logistical applications and the competitive edge. There is a big difference between "efficiency" applications and the "family jewels". The first case may likely be out-sourced to cheaper workers. The second case will never be out-sourced -- in fact, there will be constant bonuses and raises as reward for the good work.


For example...

You could spend a million dollars to build a trading application. You can save money by buying the exact equipment that you need. And have it out-sourced. Or you can spend 10 millions dollars (or probably more) by buying top of the line equipment and hiring the best developers. (particularly ones that actually built a trading system before)

In the end, the first case could probably get you a system that can do a transaction in 50ms, while the second case can do a transaction in 5ms. The first case will also probably deliver a system that is 6 months late. And may be slightly off specifications.

Big deal right? You saved 9 million dollars!!! Who cares? Out-sourcing wins!! .... A trading system can make a million dollars in a minute. A 50ms transaction versus a 5ms transaction means that your competitor can arbitrage you for 45ms -- probably extracting from you at a rate in the millions per hour.... but you saved 9 million dollars!!!

For applications in profit centers (such as trading), they don't hire cheap workers. The hire the best and do their best to keep them. They don't just maintain systems, they constantly refactor, even to the point throwing away software every few years. And most importantly, they don't hire programmers that know Java, Spring, Hibernate, etc. They hire the best developers (and managers) who will learn and use whatever technology it takes to get a competitive edge.

Henry
[ March 04, 2008: Message edited by: Henry Wong ]

[Gabriel Claramunt]

This is a very interesting thread, I'll post my comments later, but I just cant pass this:

In the end, the first case could probably get you a system that can do a transaction in 50ms, while the second case can do a transaction in 5ms. The first case will also probably deliver a system that is 6 months late. And may be slightly off specifications.

It could be worse: it could be delivered on time and exactly as specified, and of course, it would be totally useless.

[Luke Kolin]

Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:
Before you are replaced, you boss would force you to give a 4-week "knowledge transfer" session for a group of the H1Bs.

There is the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution. My employer cannot "force" me to do anything, especially not in an at will state, and certainly not for four weeks.

You will generally find that with top-quality individuals, they will gladly acquiesce to such a request. You may also generally find that within a few days, they will inform you that they have found other employment and will be leaving before the four weeks are up.

You must tell them everything you know completely and clearly and must not mislead them. Otherwise, your company or the bodyshops can ask FBI to look after you and your family.

You are absolutely paranoid, or deliberately seeking to deceive.

Mark raises excellent points, and they are well worth considering. The best individuals to hire provide returns well worth the money, and only foolish employers seek to minimize cost above all else. Good people don't bother working for them - they have options elsewhere.

Cheers!

Luke

[Pradeep bhatt]

Good points from Mark but from 5 years from now graduates coming out may be much better. Who knows !

[Ram Deshpande]

Indian nationalities are highest in number for doing their higher studies in USA and UK ... MS or PHD or GMAT and name the few...
Though Indian Education system is theoretical but still IIT and IIM graduate are @ most valued through out the world.

Ram

[Pradeep bhatt]

Prad Dip, Ram and Palani - Am not entirely clear what exactly is the point you are trying to make. Do you want the US folks to be incensed that the quota is being raised? Or do you want them to welcome it? Or do you want them to be apathetic?

I have never talked anything about quota here.
The quota increase or decrease does not bother me. I am not applying. I agree with Mark that there is huge gap between Indian and American developers. I compare myself with any American develeper that I have worked. I can see the difference.

[S. Palanigounder]

Originally posted by Henry Wong:


I can't stand this "doomsday" scenario.

It is not doomsday because you can fight back. It is election year.

For example...

For applications in profit centers (such as trading), they don't hire cheap workers. The hire the best and do their best to keep them. They don't just maintain systems, they constantly refactor, even to the point throwing away software every few years. And most importantly, they don't hire programmers that know Java, Spring, Hibernate, etc. They hire the best developers (and managers) who will learn and use whatever technology it takes to get a competitive edge.

If the speed of transaction is critical to your business, C or assembly should be used. Just make sure you handle the C's memory and pointer correct.
High level frameworks are easier for software development and maintenance, not for performance.

Everyone is learning. How do you know who is best developer or manager?
[ March 09, 2008: Message edited by: S. Palanigounder ]

[Ram Deshpande]

Increasing H1-B quota will increase more foreign workers in USA. Surely it will reduce more jobs from �skilled� American developers. Weak economy will drive more off shoring to low cost countries which may create threat to onshore developers. It will reduce few more jobs from �skilled� American developers.
But best talent will always remain unaffected.

--Ram

[Abhinav Srivastava]

H1B aren't necessarily eating into jobs which should have gone to Americans. You are confusing between H1B and offshoring. Its well known that USA doesn't have as many graduates in technical education as is required by its industries. Hence the guest worker program. For the same reason, US govt. should probably subsidise the college education and try to reduce the number of college drop-outs.
H1Bs (contractual workers) are paid on par and even more in some cases by US employers. And as far as quality of foreign workers is considered, its not as rosy as some might have you believe. I have, in general, seen in many IT teams, there are only one or two who keep the boat afloat, rest only create problems.
[ March 07, 2008: Message edited by: Abhinav Srivastava ]

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:

If the speed of transaction is critical to your business, C or assembly should be used. Just make sure you handle the C's memory and point correct.
High level frameworks are easier for software development and maintenance, not for performance.

I think you missed the point. Henry's point is that it's inherent ability, and not knowledge of a particular technology that makes someone valuable; he wasn't making the case for one technology over another for the example he gave.

Originally posted by S. Palanigounder:

Everyone is learning. How do you know who is best developer or manager?

Everyone is learning in school too and yet we can usually figure out which students are better at some given task. Likewise good managers know how to measure the performance of the developers and managers who work under them. It's not as simple as standardized testing, but there are many techniques.

Originally posted by Ram Deshpande:
Increasing H1-B quota will increase more foreign workers in USA. Surely it will reduce more jobs from �skilled� American developers. Weak economy will drive more off shoring to low cost countries which may create threat to onshore developers. It will reduce few more jobs from �skilled� American developers.

You're making a whole bunch of assumptions that simply aren't true. The biggest being that there is 1) a (relatively speaking) fixed number of IT jobs in the US, and 2) that workers displaced by H1-Bs will take lower paying jobs and/or produce less economic value.

First keep in mind that with a labor force of tens of millions, 50,000 additional foreign workers probably won't have much direct impact on the US economy.

Second, let's think about the impact of those workers. We have a nursing shortage. Currently that shortage is made up by paying overtime to nurses taking additional shifts, or to additional medical costs due to understaffing. While H1-B's do ship some dollars overseas, it is more likely that more efficient usage of capital (no overtime, reduced medical costs from complications) more than offsets that.

Likewise, if H1-B developers are filling empty slots it's because the people paying for the H1-B workers think that it's an efficient allocation of capital and will generate good returns. For those returns to be competitive with other opportunities (e.g. capital markets), it will definitely more than offset the dollars shipped overseas.

Even if H-1B developers (or those in other fields) are displacing US workers, they are presumably displacing the weaker ones. The employer gets better value per unit dollar spent and the displaced developers will in turn displace other workers because of their efficiency advantage over them.

The only time this is a threat to the economy is if the H1-B workers hired are less efficient per dollar spent than their their US counterparts (in which case we have much bigger issues to worry about), or if the displaced workers cannot find new work and become a drain on society. No doubt there have been and continue to be some isolated individuals who indeed lose their jobs and find themselves unable to get new work; likewise there are some who will find work where they net efficiency of the H1-B and displaced worker is lower than the displaced worker in his original job. However, the vast majority are likely to eventually find new employment and overall the economy will benefit from the net additional allocation of labor.


--Mark

[Henry Wong]

It is not doomsday because you can fight back. It is election year.

I hate the doomsday scenario because it is not a true scenario. To answer, with "it is election year"... is like ....


Me: Stop talking about vampires. They don't exist. They won't take over the world. Stop wasting my time with this doomsday scenario.

You: It is not doomsday because you can fight back. You can use garlic.


Henry
[ March 07, 2008: Message edited by: Henry Wong ]

[S. Palanigounder]

Originally posted by Henry Wong:


You: It is not doomsday because you can fight back. You can use garlic.

[ March 07, 2008: Message edited by: Henry Wong ]

and pepper

Seriously, why there are many H-1B bodyshops invested so much in US elections?
(of course, not on Kucinich)

[Matt Brown]

Originally posted by Ram Deshpande:

... IIT and IIM graduate are @ most valued through out the world.
Ram

I worked with so-called "IITers" in my graduate school and was not impressed
[ March 08, 2008: Message edited by: Matt Brown ]

[Henry Wong]

and pepper

Holy water. Sunlight. A wooden stake.

There are tons of choices here... pepper?!?!?

Seriously, why there are many H-1B bodyshops invested so much in US elections?

Again. If I believe this whole thing is just a bogus conspiracy theory, why would I care to argue about the details? It's like arguing the fact that the trend towards solar panels (solar energy) is going to give vampires more shade.

Henry
[ March 08, 2008: Message edited by: Henry Wong ]