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what to do when the company lies ??!!!

 
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So I landed a contract job in a very well known Telecom company in US.
My designation, as I was told and on paper(yes, on the signed contract)
is that of a Java Architect.
Having given 2-3 architectures for different applications in a recent assignment, I was
very keen to take up this job even though the rate was less than the earlier one.
(I thought the bad economy explains the low rate and an Architect's profile was too enticing...
or may be I din't think enough).
And Lo!, here I am working as a regular developer in a team of 5 and this looks like having taken a step backwards.
All suggestions to improve the design and architecture are overlooked and work is still being done in the
primitive Struts 1.2 annd EJB 2.0 even for the new development projects.
Perhaps the "real" Architect in the project is scared to use any new technology or he may loose his position of strength.
My employer has long time business relations with this client and doesn't want me to leave before atleast 3 months.

I am confused about what to do.
The economy being bad and a family to feed, should I just take it lying low, or take up the matter with the higher managers in the client side. But that might result in a opposite effect.

In this forum I've learned a lot about candidates lying about their skills.
This is the first time that I see a BIG company lying.
Please give some good advice.
regards,
Prashant
 
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I feel for you -- happened to me once as well. I was hired to be the architect for a new project that was just starting up. I was given all the preliminary tech documentation on my first day, and later that week was asked my opinion. Foolish me -- I actually believed when they said they wanted an honest appraisal. I stated what I thought were the problems with the proposed architecture -- in completely professional manner and terms.

The next day I was assigned to maintain a dead-end project that the company was retiring soon.

Because of the bad job economy at the time (this was right after the 2001 bust), I was stuck there for almost two years before I latched onto my current gig.

Oh, and they cut my salary by 25% to boot.

While I was stuck there, I did my best to make changes from within for the better. Both in the technology and how projects were handled. And that's all I can suggest for you until you can find something more suitable with acceptable risk. Try to be a positive agent of change even you are unhappy with your situation.

Management with a brain will see your contribution and hopefully give your ideas more respect. Clueless management won't get it anyways so you might as well do what you know to be right and take the high road.

Of course that doesn't mean that you have to be happy about it. I wasn't.
 
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I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune. I would not suggest taking up any of these matters with the client. You can discuss your situation and how you feel with your employer, if you are comfortable with your manager.

Basically, you work for your employer not the client. Unless you have concrete evidence that the company was untruthful about the role, you don't really know that they lied. Maybe your manager lied. Either way, a contract exists and you have a chance to demonstrate how valuable you are to your employer.

If it really bothers you, you have the option of resigning. This may not be a good option. If you do speak with your manager, it should not be negative and you should not accuse the client of anything.

Good luck!
 
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"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

(This is attributed to multiple people, although most commonly Napoleon Bonaparte.)


This is the very best business advice I've ever learned.* Whenever there is a problem like this (and you do have my sympathies) start by assuming there was a miscommunication. If you find out there was an outright lie you can get enraged later, but it's harder to resolve if you begin with accusations only to find it was and honest mistake/miscommunication.


*In the US there is a children's game called telephone. A sizable number of people line up in a row (e.g. 20+) and the first person picks a phrase, often something with a lot of alliteration but not a common well-known saying. Each person whispers the phrase into the ear of the person next to him/her in turn. As the message progresses it gets altered by mishearing. No one intentionally ruins the message (usually) but it still degrades. Likewise in corporations things often get misinterpreted and the more links in the chain the worse it becomes.


--Mark
 
tapeshwar sharma
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Thanks to all of you learned people for listening and giving the advices.
I've taken note of your advices and the one that comes out strongly is:
Not to accuse.
I was inclined to do just the opposite..thanks for that one.

One thing that some have suggested is that there might have been some miscommunication.I think I did mention it earlier, but let me make it very clear here: There is no miscommunication.To this day, I fill-in timesheets on the company website as a Technical Architect reporting to the Director.Now, there can't be a miscommunication to the timesheet application, can there be?
I don't think my employer knew that earlier, but now that the contract is signed, he's gonna look the other way.

Anyways, thanks for lending a ear.I guess I have to live with it for some time.
 
Mark Herschberg
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Originally posted by prashant bhardwaj:
One thing that some have suggested is that there might have been some miscommunication.I think I did mention it earlier, but let me make it very clear here: There is no miscommunication.To this day, I fill-in timesheets on the company website as a Technical Architect reporting to the Director.Now, there can't be a miscommunication to the timesheet application, can there be?



I don't see how you can be so certain that there can be no miscommunication. What is a technical architect? Does he run a project of at least 10k SLOC? 100k SLOC? 1M SLOC? Does hte project have to have at least 5 people? at least 500 people? Do he have to write specs? What is the industry expectation for amount of time a technical architect codes? Bill Gates was the Chief Architect at Microsoft the past few years; do you think the Chief Architect at a 100 person tech company has the same day to day activities?

First come to understand what are the roles of other Technical Architects at the company before you are certain of decit. Even then it's not clear that this role does fit the requirements.

Legally unless they specify the details of the role in the contract there's not much that can be done (assuming you're in the US), and given that you're a contractor as your point out your company may not care.

The question I would want to know is what is the job description your manager there gave to you--not the title, but the explanation of the duties and role?


--Mark
 
tapeshwar sharma
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I don't see how you can be so certain that there can be no miscommunication. What is a technical architect? Does he run a project of at least 10k SLOC? 100k SLOC? 1M SLOC? Does hte project have to have at least 5 people? at least 500 people? Do he have to write specs? What is the industry expectation for amount of time a technical architect codes? Bill Gates was the Chief Architect at Microsoft the past few years; do you think the Chief Architect at a 100 person tech company has the same day to day activities?


Oh my!, you seem to be more upset than I am.
I hope you are not a office bearer in this company.
If you are, sir, let me tell you that I have been doing my job dilligently, even though I do not like the profile.

Comming to the definition of a technical architect:
For someone who has been in this field for quite a few years (and I am sure you've much more experience than I do) its surely not rocket science to figure out what I am talking about.
Ofcourse, if you want, you can act like a lawyer, draw unrelated analogies and make me shut my mouth.
Or may be you can just understand like some other people here.
Totally your choice sir.
On my part, I choose to oblige you and not argue any more.
 
Mark Herschberg
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My point (to others who may read this since you seem to have given up on continuing this thread) is that titles can mean many things. While I may apply to jobs based on titles I always ask the following questions when considering a job:

1) What are my specific roles and responsibilities?
2) While every motnh will be different, in the average month, what do you see as the percentage breakdown of my work among the various tasks.

I was worked as an architect on a project of nearly a million lines of code with 25 people divided into 5 teams. My boss felt that the best way I could be an architect was to spend 90% of my time coding security features and that by doing so I would be able to keep on top of the project. I disagreed; and personally felt I needed to spend more time working on the overall architecture as well as with each of the teams. Nevertheless he sincerely felt that was an appropriate use of my time and appropriate work for an architect. Right or wrong, people have a wide range of opinions.

--Mark
 
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Originally posted by prashant bhardwaj:
On my part, I choose to oblige you and not argue any more.



I don't understand your response.

Mark is merely pointing out that the role of Technical/Software Architect varies tremendously from company to company. I have seen job opportunities titled as "Senior Architect" which, after review of the duties, are nothing more than a mid-level Developer with title inflation to justify (perhaps) a higher salary.

So I do not see why you are so antagonistic - when offered such a job, I personally ask a LOT of questions as to the specific nature of the job, the duties, and the level of responsibility given to the "Architect". I too am curious as to what the roles and duties where listed as. The title is meaningless.

Cheers!

Luke
 
Jimmy Clark
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Please describe the activities and responsibilities that you thought you would handle.

And Lo!, here I am working as a regular developer in a team of 5 and this looks like having taken a step backwards.



Please describe the activities and responsibilities that you handle on a day-to-day basis.


All suggestions to improve the design and architecture are overlooked



Were you asked to make suggestions to improve the design and architecture? How long is this contract?

and work is still being done in the primitive Struts 1.2 annd EJB 2.0 even for the new development projects



Based on the attitude in the statement above, it looks like you are not as experienced as you think you are. My suggestion to you, in addition to what I wrote above, would be to calm down and focus on providing great customer service. Write the darn test cases and keep your trap shut...just kidding
[ July 16, 2008: Message edited by: James Clark ]
 
tapeshwar sharma
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So I do not see why you are so antagonistic -


Well I got no problem expressing regret if it sounded disrespectful to a
learned person like Mark.
I think that that stuff about "Bill Gates - Chief Architect of MS" was like straying away from the topic.
Perhaps even gurus need to be put in check sometimes.
A learned person should act like one and not like he doesn't know the definition of a technical architect in a general sense of the word.
One sure expects a technical architect to (atleast) look into the design aspects of the application and even more depending on the requirements, but here I am tied to the if-then-else's and to build a new application taking the design and technology from the old one.A No Brainer.
Hope that explains.Again, thanks for investing your time.
 
tapeshwar sharma
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Based on the attitude in the statement above, it looks like you are not as experienced as you think you are.


Well you sure look like someone who knows more about people than they know about themselves.No use putting time on you.I am kidding as well.
 
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Originally posted by Luke Kolin:

I have seen job opportunities titled as "Senior Architect" which, after review of the duties, are nothing more than a mid-level Developer with title inflation to justify (perhaps) a higher salary.



Well, I wonder if the "Senior Architect" acts as a mid-level Developer, what would the real "Mid-Level Developer" do in there and down the hierarchy, what would the "Junior-Most Developer" do? Also, who will do the real "Technical Architect"ural job? Bewildering, Isn't it? At least for me, it is.
As you have said, Titles seem to be meaningless in those cases. But I'm sure I haven't come across such misleading Titles so far.



The title is meaningless.


I thought "Technical Architect" does something like this
 
Mark Herschberg
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Originally posted by Thamizh Velan:

Well, I wonder if the "Senior Architect" acts as a mid-level Developer, what would the real "Mid-Level Developer" do in there and down the hierarchy,



During the 90's in the US there was huge title inflation. I would see kids sometimes just out of college get hired into "senior developer" roles. I saw kids with 5 years of experience as architects. I'm not saying either of these is inherently wrong (I think a few rare people can pull it off) but then I've also seen companies where you can't become an architect short of 15 years of experience, and companies where you have (all in one company) technical architects, system architects, infrastructure architects, senior architects, etc.

To answer your above question in the 90's, in most cases I'm aware of a "mid level developer" in the case you described above was the same as a developer but presumably at higher pay.
 
Mark Herschberg
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I'm glad to see that you're still in the thread Prashant because I think you can learn something from this.

Originally posted by prashant bhardwaj:

Well I got no problem expressing regret if it sounded disrespectful to a
learned person like Mark.



I didn't take anything as disrespectful.


Originally posted by prashant bhardwaj:

I think that that stuff about "Bill Gates - Chief Architect of MS" was like straying away from the topic.



And that's where you're missing the point--the same titles have different meanings at different companies. I provided a very extreme example so it would be clear but I think you're having trouble relating to it. As I tried to point out in my personal example I worked for a man who felt that on the project I was on I should be coding 90% of the time as the sole architect in 100+ person company with a team of 25 engineers. I know of other managers who in the same situation would expect an architect to code around 20% of the time. I know some companies where architects never actually write code. Differ companies but same title can mean different roles.


--Mark
 
Jimmy Clark
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Sounds like a situation where, to make the sale, the vendor presented a "Technical Architect" to fill the position.

Any organization that needs to go to a vendor to get a "technical architect" for a contract has some issues anyway. So, don't be suprised that you are not doing fancy architectural design work.

Most likely, the organization just needed a developer and did not want to risk taking on a developer from a contractor because there are so many poorly skilled so-called "developers" ... it is too risky. Your employer was wise to present you as a "Technical Architect" to win the contract.
 
tapeshwar sharma
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Most likely, the organization just needed a developer and did not want to risk taking on a developer from a contractor ....



In other words, they "lied".
In trying to save their own interest, they are playing with other's careers.
Ofcourse, you wouldn't concede that because you already know so much err.. correction: "everything" about me and the company already.
Never thought I'd revert back to you, but your absolute know-it-all attitude is simply appalling.
I may be a starter with architecture Mister, but whatever I gave to the previous projects works and performs really well.
Ofcourse there are people who know more than I do, but then thats true always, no matter how much you know.
You sure doesn't look like one amongst them, so better stop commenting about what I did or what my employer did.
 
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Originally posted by Luke Kolin:



The title is meaningless.




Absolutely true. Sometimes titles are set by Human Resouces people who have no clue about anything IT related. Sometimes a manager may have an vacant position allocated to his work group with a certain title but he needs someone to do something else so he hires the person he needs and that person gets the meaningless title. And then there are legitimate disagreements over the extent and nature of the duties of any title that will naturally vary from company to company.
 
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Everybody:

Please remember the number one rule of JavaRanch:

Be Nice.

No personal comments or attacks, please, from anyone. Everyone here is just trying to help.
 
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You sure doesn't look like one amongst them, so better stop commenting about what I did or what my employer did.



I think the problem here is that the first post is worded as a question -- which hints that it needs solving. IMHO, you seem more frustrated at being "lied" to, and is looking to vent.

In order to help find a solution, you need to address all sides of the issue -- including what you don't want to hear. Simply implying someone as stupid, and to not post, doesn't solve the problem.

Henry
 
Luke Kolin
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Originally posted by Thamizh Velan:
Well, I wonder if the "Senior Architect" acts as a mid-level Developer, what would the real "Mid-Level Developer" do in there and down the hierarchy, what would the "Junior-Most Developer" do? Also, who will do the real "Technical Architect"ural job? Bewildering, Isn't it? At least for me, it is. As you have said, Titles seem to be meaningless in those cases. But I'm sure I haven't come across such misleading Titles so far.



It depends on the company. Some might not have the very junior titles, and may actually say that's because everyone there is "senior". Or it could be like a bank, where anybody who's anybody is a "Vice-President".

I thought "Technical Architect" does something like this



There may be some similarities. Most Technical/Software Architect positions I've seen have had at least some level of hands-on coding work, but that can range from 100% to 2%.

Orignally posted by prashant bhardwaj:
In other words, they "lied". In trying to save their own interest, they are playing with other's careers.



I still am at a loss as to why you believe that they were untruthful. There is no specific set of responsibilities that a Technical Architect "must" have, and I think it's exceptionally dangerous for anyone to accept a job based on a title alone. Did you get a listing of the specific job duties and requirements?

Let me give a little example; CareerBuilder is currently running an advertisement for a "Senior Software Architect", requiring at least five years' experience as a software architect and experience leading large projects. Sounds good thus far, no? Then, the kicker: "Will be a combination of production support, maintenance, and new enhancements. However, room to grow and move into lead roles." So instead of seeking a true senior architect, it looks more like a job for a maintenance programmer with the potential for less hand-holding down the road.

If I went into that job without looking at the description or asking a lot of questions, I'd be pretty upset as well. But it still wouldn't mean that they have lied or been untruthful, unless they out and out claimed something totally different in the duties.

Cheers!

Luke
 
tapeshwar sharma
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In order to help find a solution, you need to address all sides of the issue -- including what you don't want to hear. Simply implying someone as stupid, and to not post, doesn't solve the problem.


Now, thats what I call a perfect way to put forth a disagreement.
Ok, let me put it this way:
If someone explains a situation and asks for my help, then I'd like to be someone who provides tips to overcome or handle this situation(provided I know how to, otherwise I'l stay off).
Doubting a person's assertion or his competence is not exactly helpful.
If I really want to help someone, I'l never doubt the facts that they provide.
This is simply beacause there is really no way to scrutinise those facts
There is a limit to how much can be expressed and revealed over a message post.(Now, you certainly don't expect me to post all the emails that I exchanged with my client at the time of hiring, do you?)
and also because I have neither any authority nor any inclination to judge another person.
It is this belief of mine, stated above because of which I said something that might have looked too harsh on someone.
But honestly, wasn't he too sure about me, my company and the situation?
Thanks for your post.
regards,
Prashant
P.S: We all have put in a lot of time and effort into something way off the topic.Being the OP, I take all the blame and apoloigize for having taken that time.Thank you all.
 
tapeshwar sharma
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Ok, sorry to eat my own words and comming back to post here, but when I found this in my mail, couldn't resist posting it.
This is just to substantiate that I am under no illusion nor am I trying to create one for you.
Following is the excerpt from the job requirement.
The only thing changed here is removing the names,identities and business specific job duties.


The Senior Technical Architect is responsible for the same activities as the Technical Architect but has a broader scope of responsibilities and more in-depth business and technical knowledge. Responsible for multiple projects or large complex projects with cross functional teams and business processes. Demonstrate expert knowledge in multiple technical and business functional areas as well as performing a larger leadership role in the organization. Apply broad in- depth business and technical knowledge to establish technical direction and priorities. Resolve and work on issues across multiple functional areas. Effectively monitor and take action to ensure coordination and effectiveness of all components and activities and decide on issues requiring escalation. Incumbents understand the system flow for a project throughout an entire functional area (e.g. *****) not just a subsystem area. They have medium to long range planning responsibility



I posted this for Mark.
Someome else ,(no prize for guessing who ) will now say that this is doctored.I wouldn't care any less, but sometimes one gotta pay back in the same coin and thats what I did earlier.
Mark, do you still believe that there is a miscommunication and I am just a hothead venting it out?
For the record, my designation is "Senior Technical Architect".
regards,
Prashant
 
Henry Wong
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Mark, do you still believe that there is a miscommunication and I am just a hothead venting it out?



Does it really matter? Mark is not the one with the problem, you are. And convincing Mark that it is not a miscommunication, won't help solving your problem does it?

Doubting a person's assertion or his competence is not exactly helpful. If I really want to help someone, I'l never doubt the facts that they provide.



If the question has to take as fact, that the company is completely at fault, and you have none. If the question has to take as fact, that the company is a complete liar, and can't be trusted. There really isn't a solution. How can you negotiate a deal when it is a fact that the other party won't honor the deal?

Henry
 
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Prashant,
Jumping into this thread late, often projects have different phases. At the beginning, there is more architecture work. Later on, there is more coding. A flexible team will often have everyone (including the architect) coding at this point. Also, many teams are reluctant to have a brand new person (to the team) be doing architecture right away. To me, this makes sense as learning about the team/project takes some time.

What I'm getting at is that maybe the architecture part is coming. Have you asked what the job will be like 6-12 months down the line?

and work is still being done in the
primitive Struts 1.2 annd EJB 2.0 even for the new development projects


It sounds like this decision is committed to for this project. Maybe there is opportunity to change it for the next one; maybe not. Do you know the reasons they are using those technologies? (Not assuming; really finding out.) I can think of some perfectly valid ones where they would be the right decision. As an architect, finding out these answers will help you tailor your recommendations to their particular projects, teams and company.

And of course, it can be assumed that the company lied. As Henry pointed out, that forces one to just give up. I'm trying to come at it from a different angle in that maybe things can be improved.
 
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Is it just the fact that you are writing code that's bothering you? As Jeanne pointed out, many architects, myself included, have heavy code responsibilities.

In fact, I insist upon it. It helps prevent the Ivory Tower Syndrome.
 
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Originally posted by Bear Bibeault:
Is it just the fact that you are writing code that's bothering you? [/URL].


I dont think writing code is bothering him but this is

...All suggestions to improve the design and architecture are overlooked...


After all his job profile does say

...Apply broad in- depth business and technical knowledge to establish technical direction and priorities...



Having undergone a similar situation myself, I can associate with him to an extent. However, in my case, thinking of any legal action (in India it can take years) was out of question and resigning felt like running away.
What I chose to do was, develop simultaneously, on my time, the design I knew would fix the issues. During office hours, I did what was the mandate. After a few months, the alpha version was being demonstrated to our VP, and it ran into the problems, which I had identified and were scoffed at. Then I demonstrated my design which addressed all the issues. Of course my design was not fool proof but it did address all the problems from the official version.

That earned me a drink from the VP and six months down the line I got a fantastic hike.

I would suggest bide your time. Nothing sweeter than having the same people, who rejected your suggestions before, come to you for technical help.
 
tapeshwar sharma
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Is it just the fact that you are writing code that's bothering you? As Jeanne pointed out, many architects, myself included, have heavy code responsibilities.


Is this Bear Bibeault talking? "et tu, brute !" just kidding !

Alright, perhaps I have been talking too much -ve and that makes people uncomfortable. I'l take a chill for a while.

[ July 17, 2008: Message edited by: prashant bhardwaj ]
[ July 17, 2008: Message edited by: prashant bhardwaj ]
 
Bear Bibeault
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Originally posted by prashant bhardwaj:
Is this Bear Bibeault talking? "et tu, brute !" just kidding !

My question was quite serious. I've met many an architect who thinks that coding is "beneath them". They have not been the best ones that I have worked with.

It's easy to lose site of reality unless you keep at least one foot in the trenches.
 
tapeshwar sharma
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My question was quite serious.



I think Manish has answered your question,may be you can take a look.
Again, we come back to square one.
I said in my very 2nd reply:
Its your choice whether you want to ignore or keep questioning facts over and over or really think about a way to handle a situation?
 
frank davis
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Originally posted by Maneesh Godbole:


... and it ran into the problems, which I had identified and were scoffed at. Then I demonstrated my design which addressed all the issues.
.. Nothing sweeter than having the same people, who rejected your suggestions before, come to you for technical help.




On the other hand, sometimes those that came up with the original failed design are above you on the food chain and don't take kindly to being reminded that you previously suggested a better design, etc, ...

Many times the "VP" will never hear of your ideas, because they get either filtered out and spinned by those above also.
 
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Its your choice whether you want to ignore or keep questioning facts over and over or really think about a way to handle a situation?



I'm interested too. Is coding "beneath" you? It seems like an easy question to answer.

Henry
 
tapeshwar sharma
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I'm interested too. Is coding "beneath" you? It seems like an easy question to answer.


And it has been answered most recently by Maneesh ...


I dont think writing code is bothering him but this is

quote:
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...All suggestions to improve the design and architecture are overlooked...
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and a no. of times previously by me.
You sure don't want to make a never ending tv soap on this.
Again, you choose what to read and what to ignore.
 
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I think there is something lost in translation for you, because the internet does not allow for inflection. No one anywhere was accusing you of lying or doctoring the facts so that your argument seems more valid to the third party members not privy to the actual goings on: a.k.a. javaranch.

Many disagreements are simple m i s understandings even those between hiring managers and their candidates.

I think he was trying to make sure there was no misunderstanding between you and your employer. So that, once this was verified, you could take action (if it was needed)with your concrete evidence that this job was mis-represented to you and NOT mis-understood by you.

Not that anyone, anywhere was attacking your personal character by assuming you misunderstood. As the easiest type of dis-agreement to solve, it's a logical place to start.

Personally, if you feel they were truly dishonest about it I would start looking for a job now. When you have one, I would leave. I would deal with the current situation professionally and I don't think I would bring this up with your manager. Mainly because if this really was them trying to bait you into a job by inflating your responsibilities he is not likely to listen to your pleas when you express your disappointment.
[ July 18, 2008: Message edited by: Paul Yule ]
 
tapeshwar sharma
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Not that anyone, anywhere was attacking your personal character by assuming you misunderstood. As the easiest type of dis-agreement to solve, it's a logical place to start.



May be you should read the post from a gentle man named (name withheld as per policy).
Not only is he sure that I misunderstood, he's sure that I do not deserve any better and says that "...may be your Employer lied to you, not the client".
Now, making that many assumptions isn't helpful, is it?
He goes to the extent of saying that my Employer was clever enough to play the game and (implying) presented me as an "Architect" when I do not deserve to be one.
Now thats crossing the line by a mile.
I get rebuked for not being polite enough by the moderators and this guy gets away with murder.
Apart from that, people don't read the posts well and keep comming back with the same questions.What do I make of it?
Many of them are authors and far-far more knowledgeable than I am, but I am sorry to say that the approach towards understanding the problem(let alone solving) has not been very well thought after.
Its like a wife approaches the agony aunt complaining that her husband is cheating, and the aunt tells her "You deserve that, you fat ugly bitch!. Wait a minute, you are not really married, are you? I think it was a live-in arrangement"
 
Paul Yule
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Originally posted by prashant bhardwaj:

Doubting a person's assertion or his competence is not exactly helpful.



yes, it is helpful. There are few types of disagreements in the world and one of the most prominent is misunderstandings. Asking if you misunderstood or getting the facts so that we can make our own judgements on what happened is part of the "helping you solve it" process.

If you know you are correct and you know they are wrong and you know what we should say to respond to you then it sounds like you aren't looking to get someone else to help you out; you are wanting us to tell you that you are correct.

If you are correct you should be able to show us that you have clearly understood the position they were offering you and that yes, they were deceitful when they tried to hire you. When you did that he would have come to the same conclusion as you.

Asking us to accept your conclusion from the get-go sorta defeats the purpose. We all misunderstand things and when you have not misunderstood something you should chill out and understand that no one here is attacking you when they ask for the other side of it. However, when you start to tilt at windmills they start to fight back.
 
tapeshwar sharma
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Doubt a person how many times?
The same question being asked by so many people one after the other even after providing the proof.
Besides, thats assuming that I came to the forum without doing proper homework wasting everybody's time.Just "venting out" as somebody said.
This is not a court of law where I should be required to prove something, otherwise there will be no end to it.I can keep bringing proofs and you can keep questioning.
One better approach was the one taken by Bear Bibeault earlier, though lately he felt like having broken away from the others by not questioning enough. There is Maneesh's suggestion that is interesting.
Not to criticize before the manager is another one that came out earlier.
Now, do you need to learn more about how to help?
 
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Originally posted by prashant bhardwaj:
Now, do you need to learn more about how to help?

Prashant, let me remind you AGAIN that the rule here is "BE NICE". I don't think that is a nice question.
 
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I think everything that can usefully be said has been said by now. Talking about who misunderstood whom -on purpose or otherwise- will not lead to a happy ending. So I'm closing this theead.
 
Don't get me started about those stupid light bulbs.
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