I really disappointed

[Ninad Kulkarni]

I am BE Instrumentation graduate from Mumbai University
I have done professional Java/J2EE course
I passed SCJP 5.0 with 97% on 28th August 2008
I am searching for a Java job for fresher
But not get a java job till now I really very much disappointed.

Please help me

How to search for a Java job as a fresher in India?
I am from Mumbai in India

Regards
Ninad

[Marc Wentink]

Originally posted by Ninad Kulkarni:
I passed SCJP 5.0 with 97% on 28th August 2008

Ah well, in 1992 I was graduated cum laude at Tec. College, and it took me a year to find a job. Although these were economicly though times.

But any idea why? Now it may sound stupid, but some for managers and human resource workers this '97%' is not worse that much. Most do not know how to judge technical skills and some even think that an almost perfect score indicates that you're 'probably a nerd': It can even work against you. Like in the end I got questions like 'How does it come that you graduated cum laude and have not got a job yet?'. Indicating that such high notes, would indicate my 'nerdesness', and still being unemployed would even confirm that.

My trick was to mention your high scores, but not to focus too much on them when talking to Human Resource managers. When you're past them, and you will talk to your future team lead, they know tec skills, and they appreciate them.

Does that help?

[Ninad Kulkarni]

please explain in simple way I am not fully understand what you want to convey

Regards
Ninad

[Marc Wentink]

Originally posted by Ninad Kulkarni:
please explain in simple way I am not fully understand what you want to convey

Regards
Ninad

Ok simple.

Don't say to Human Resource people you've got a '97%' on the SCJP. Only mention it as a figure on your resume. Human Resource people are ass holes, that think if you brag to much about your high notes, then you must be a nerd with no social skills. But this is probably because they failed in mathnmatics and science class themselves in highschool.

Makes it a lot less diplomatic also I fear

[Ninad Kulkarni]

ok I got your point
Thanks for reply

Upto now I am not get called for interview and if I called for interview then HR people comes into picture and my technical interview performance come into picture

Regards
Ninad

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Marc Wentink:

But any idea why? Now it may sound stupid, but some for managers and human resource workers this '97%' is not worse that much. Most do not know how to judge technical skills and some even think that an almost perfect score indicates that you're 'probably a nerd': It can even work against you.

I find this very hard to believe. It is absolutely not true in the US; hiring managers and HR here will just think you know the material on the test well and won't make assumptions beyond that.

I don't know the Indian market as well but I am skeptical of this statement and would encourage others with this experience to weigh in.

--Mark

[Marc Wentink]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I find this very hard to believe.

There is a logical explination for this. People tend to appreciate the skills they have themselves, over skills they don't have, to make themselves feel better. Therefor some, not all, HR people will over appreciate the soft social skills, and under appreciate the technical skills. Imagine, if they would not: their own job would be less important. And who likes to feel less important?

So, the HR will find it more important that you seem to be a nice sociable person, and that they have a 'good feeling' about you, then what ever grade you had on whatever exams.

For the same reason, managers often think programmers lack social skills, and programmers often think managers lack technical knowledge.

Now I may-be have put this a little extreme, but I think am not that for off in the core of the being.

[Ninad Kulkarni]

How to search for a Java job as a fresher in India?
I am from Mumbai in India

[Marc Wentink]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I don't know the Indian market as well but I am skeptical of this statement and would encourage others with this experience to weigh in.

Let us not do that but focus on how to get Ninad Kulkarni to work, may-be?

[Maris Orbidans]

nerd with no social skills.

what are social skills ? I probably don't have a single social skill but I have worked in IT for 8 years and have never been asked if I have social skills...

[Billy Tsai]

when I graduated with an information technology bachelor degree from a university and obtained 4 Sun Microsystems Java certifications years ago I spent 7 months looking for a junior or an entry level IT job and I couldn't find any, I received rejections for all the jobs I applied for back then becuase I had no experience, in the end I finally gave up and moved to another country(in asia) to find an IT job and was successful in obtaining an assistant position. Then I worked in that country for several years before I moved back to the country I grew up and received my education from because I was able to find a job and pass the interview process.

[Marc Wentink]

Originally posted by Maris Orbidans:
have never been asked if I have social skills...

No the HR won't ask you, 'Hi Maris, do you have social skills?'. He/she will deduct that from you body language, how you present yourself in the interview, how easy and confident you present your story, how enthousiastic you are. I got rejected for example by HR for 'not having the right vibes', while technically perfect for a certain job.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Marc Wentink:


There is a logical explination for this...

Now I may-be have put this a little extreme, but I think am not that for off in the core of the being.

While we all prefer some skills over others I think you are going much more than "a little extreme" I think this is an unsupported allegation. I really find this opinion to be baseless and would discourage others from giving it weight.

--Mark

[Ninad Kulkarni]

If I get a call for interview then I will prove myself in the interview.
I am confident but still need a chance for interview
till now I am not called interview

Regards
Ninad

[Jimmy Clark]

Don't focus on your credentials. Your score on a SCJP test is a trivial detail, best to not mention it. Certainly, not on a resume. If you are asked what your score was, then provide the score.

You might want to rework your resume. Having no work experience makes it tough. You need to be patient and try your best to get some responses to your resume. Be friendly on phone interviews and practice responses and questions in your free time.

Also, the J2EE acronym is outdated. If you have this on your resume, it looks strange. It was replaced with "Java EE." If you are advertising that you took a course a few years ago that covered the J2EE API, then it is fine. If you recently took a course, what did you learn about J2EE?
[ October 04, 2008: Message edited by: James Clark ]

[arulk pillai]

Promote yourself as a well balanced professional as opposed to just a techie. A well written resume highlighting a variety of skills can give you a better chance of getting employed. Certifications are for your own good. Try to get some hands-on experience in sought-after technologies/frameworks like Spring, Hibernate, Struts, JSF, etc by either taking part in open-source projects, volunteer work, or self-taught projects. Always the first job is the hardest, so make job hunting your full time job. You will succeed. good luck.

[ October 04, 2008: Message edited by: arulk pillai ]
[ October 04, 2008: Message edited by: arulk pillai ]

[Ninad Kulkarni]

I already followed your tips of resume I know about your tips of resume when you replied my post on certification results section
I structured my resume as per your suggestions
still I am not get called for an interview

is SCJP less valueable to mention on resume?

Regards
Ninad
[ October 04, 2008: Message edited by: Ninad Kulkarni ]

[Kalyan Anand]

I would suggest you to show your score on your resume. What the others said might be true in countries where there is lesser competition but in India for a single job you have thousands of freshers applying. The only way you can pass the initial resume screening is by projecting things where you stand out from others.

[Kalyan Anand]

To brighten your prospects contact employees working in software companies. You can do this with social networking sites. Once you get employee referrals getting a call wouldn't be that tough.

[Maneesh Godbole]

Ninad,

There are no hard and fast rules on how to get a job or why one doesnt get a job.

To start with you have to mentally accept the fact that it is a time consuming process. I am sure you do not want to jump at the first opportunity that comes your way just because it is a "job". You surely want to pick and choose and go for the one, which you would really love to do. For this to happen, of course you need to get called for interviews.

There are several reasons why one might not get called up. In your case, one of the possible reasons could be that you are a fresher. Most companies nowadays prefer experienced people.

I would suggest you invest your time in active coding. It is going to help you stay in touch with technology. You can also cite it on your resume, that you were freelancing, and these were the projects you did. You can google around for several sites where you can rent out your coding skills as a freelancer.

Simultaneously you can still continue your job quest by sending out resume's and registering on job sites online.

Keep the faith. I am sure it is just a matter of time you really land up a job.

Best of luck.

[Marc Wentink]

Originally posted by Ninad Kulkarni:
is SCJP less valueable to mention on resume?

No do mention it. But do not focus too much on it. Since your technical skills are probably not the issue. You could put something social on your resume, like you are the chairman of the local cricket team or so. And could phone them personally, instead of sending letters. Go to the website of the company, try to find some questions about them, pick up the phone, ask the questions, try to tell something about yourself too, and be charming.

The HR manager mostly makes the first shift, and they appreciate these things.

[Ninad Kulkarni]

Thanks to all members of javaranch for given moral support
still hunting for job atleast an interview call to perform

Regards
Ninad

[arulk pillai]

is SCJP less valueable to mention on resume?

No body is saying not to show SCJP or not to display your results. As a beginner it is very valuable and you must display them in the first page. You need to put additional phrases in your resume to highlight yourself as a well balanced candidate. It is worth getting your resume reviewed. It is a tougher market out there and you need to be a little more patient. Also, look for volunteer work and possible open-source contribution to enhance your resume, skills, and experience, while looking for a paid job. Check your private message.
[ October 05, 2008: Message edited by: arulk pillai ]

[Imran Jack]

Ninad, there is absolutely nothing wrong with you dear..... it is the global market down-turn. When I was in 1st-year of my degree, IT was booming in India. The people who had back-logs/Supples got jobs in top firms. When I was in 4th-year global recesssion was going on, only 2/30 got a proper job. Rest, did MBAs, Master etc. At that time IT was so hopeless that one of my classmates became cameraman, one did course of Logistic and now works at port, many studied finance, marketing etc.

So dont blame yourself, once industry is boom, not only you and your classmates, but even civil/chemical engineer will end up in infosys/wipro etc. Until then, take it easy.

[Ninad Kulkarni]

Thank you very much for moral support

Regards
Ninad
[ October 05, 2008: Message edited by: Ninad Kulkarni ]

[Chen Venkat]

Ninad,
The market in India is quite bad now. Lots of freshers and even experienced grads are in bench and from Oct to Jan or so there is budget freeze and planning for next year during which most of the companies freeze hiring. I would suggest you to pick up job with a small company to get experience rather than waiting for biggie call. And invest in improving your skills, datastructures and problems (a lot is expected from freshers in this area) and your strengths. Keep trying using your contacts, through you college alumni who can forward your resumes to their company.

[Kj Reddy]

At this moment the market in India is not good and many freshers who got selected in campus interviews and got appointment letters are waiting for their joining dates. So you have to wait to get a break. Fortunately in Mumbai there are many small companies which can take freshers and you better to try with them instead of targeting big companies. After gaining good amount of experience you can target for bigger companies. If you are very desperate for job then you better try in your subject area till the IT job market becomes better.

[Ninad Kulkarni]

Hello Chen Venkat and KJ Reddy
Thanks for reply from both of you
I am ready to work with any type of company on java platform
But I think you suggest that also try for other platform am I correct?

Regards
Ninad

[Pradeep bhatt]

Originally posted by Ninad Kulkarni:
Hello Chen Venkat and KJ Reddy
Thanks for reply from both of you
I am ready to work with any type of company on java platform
But I think you suggest that also try for other platform am I correct?

Regards
Ninad

There are too many Java programmers in the market. Java skills have become ordinary. Any Tom, Dick or Harry knows it.

[Marcel Wentink]

Also, IT goes down double. If industries are tight in money, they will focus on their core business, hence prospone software investments. For IT freshmen it was the hardest to find a job, when I left Tec. College, Europe, early nineties, economical downfall. Harder for IT freshmen then for Civil or Chemical engineers for example. A few years later, suddenly everybody wants you to work for them, and you get a few hundred $ raise for nothing to confirm to the then again rising market: IT goes up double and goes down double.

[Sagar Rohankar]

Originally posted by Marc Wentink:


Therefor some, not all, HR people will over appreciate the soft social skills, and under appreciate the technical skills. .

I agree, they think that, they rule the market, If they can hire you ,they can sack you out too !

[Kj Reddy]

Originally posted by Ninad Kulkarni:

But I think you suggest that also try for other platform am I correct?

Yes I suggest you to have alternative plans.

[Ramesh Srinivasan]

Originally posted by Ninad Kulkarni:
Thanks to all members of javaranch for given moral support
still hunting for job atleast an interview call to perform

Regards
Ninad

Hi Ninad,

I would say better to keep an eye on all the IT hubs in India, (mumbai,bangalore,chennai,and hyderabad etc).
Don't stick with Mumbai. Just gain some experience then you may back to your native.

BEST OF LUCK.

[Sagar Rohankar]

Originally posted by Ramesh Srinivasan:



I would say better to keep an eye on all the IT hubs in India, (mumbai,bangalore,chennai,and hyderabad etc).

You miss the nearest one , Pune !! But my personal experience Mumbai got more job than Pune

[Ninad Kulkarni]

Thanks for suggestions and moral support from all of you

Regards
Ninad
[ October 06, 2008: Message edited by: Ninad Kulkarni ]

[Ls chin]

Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
when I graduated with an information technology bachelor degree from a university and obtained 4 Sun Microsystems Java certifications years ago I spent 7 months looking for a junior or an entry level IT job and I couldn't find any, I received rejections for all the jobs I applied for back then becuase I had no experience, in the end I finally gave up and moved to another country(in asia) to find an IT job and was successful in obtaining an assistant position. Then I worked in that country for several years before I moved back to the country I grew up and received my education from because I was able to find a job and pass the interview process.

Oh my gawd, I really don't know what to say... This is one of the scariest stories I've heard about job-hunting experiences.

[Ninad Kulkarni]

I think SCJP has no value at all
now I will remove it from my resume and try for job on any platform for any location
Frankly speaking I did to much practice in java programming language not for scjp alone and gain nice knowledge from it but in the end no benifit from scjp. It is just a piece of paper

Regards
Ninad
[ October 06, 2008: Message edited by: Ninad Kulkarni ]

[Oscar Johansson]

Originally posted by Ninad Kulkarni:
I think SCJP has no value at all
now I will remove it from my resume and try for job on any platform for any location
Frankly speaking I did to much practice in java programming language not for scjp alone and gain nice knowledge from it but in the end no benifit from scjp. It is just a piece of paper

Regards
Ninad

[ October 06, 2008: Message edited by: Ninad Kulkarni ]

Yes, it has much lower value than most people new to the job market think.

Don't remove it from your resume. But don't highlight it as one of your strong points for being a good candidat because having that certification (or others) is not a good reason since far too many people have that certification and know little about programming other than just the language features and syntax. And that really doesn't help on-the-job.

[Ninad Kulkarni]

Thanks arulk for your moral support check your private message

Regards
Ninad
[ October 07, 2008: Message edited by: Ninad Kulkarni ]

[Ninad Kulkarni]

Originally posted by Prad Dip:


There are too many Java programmers in the market. Java skills have become ordinary. Any Tom, Dick or Harry knows it.

Thanks Prad Dip for reply
Tell me which skills are required in current days?

Regards
Ninad