Some clarification on the recent purgings...

[Nathan Pruett]

Recently there have been several incidents in this forum. Things have gotten out of control, threads have been deleted and feelings have possibly been hurt. I would like to point out a few things and possibly smooth over some of the recent incidents. Point one, JavaRanch is a professional resource. Meaningless Drivel is a place to relax, but much like the break room at your place of business, consider that a professional attitude is still needed. You don't curse at your boss, make personal attacks on co-workers, or make blatent sexual remarks to the secretary. If you do these things you will not last in a professional atmosphere long. Expletives, blatent sexual references, and personal attacks are not considered part of a professional attitude. Point two, JavaRanch is billed as 'a friendly place for Java greenhorns'. Again, expletives, blatent sexual references, and personal attacks are not considered friendly behavior.

This is in no way an attack against anyone or any idea in particular. For some reason, Meaningless Drivel has recently become a hotbed of religious, social, and political discussion. Please realize that you are welcome to express any idea that you want in this forum, as long as you present these ideas in a civilized manner. Any of the above topics can easily develop into a flame war, so please think about these things before you post.

I really hate to have to post this. 99.9% of the posts in meaningless drivel do not step over the line. Chuuma Fun's risque jokes may contain thinly veiled sexual references, but at least they are thinly veiled ( as opposed to 'blatent' ). The friendly bickering among the Meaningless Drivel 'GoF' may have annoyed some people, but was still conducted in a 'fun' manner. Johnson Chong and his followers may not make much sense, but at least they present their 'ideas' with some sense of propriety.

Sorry to have had to interject this bit of seriousness into meaningless drivel... anyway people, go on and have fun!

Your friendly neighborhood bartender,
-Nate

[Angela Poynton]

Bravo Nathan!!
Well said!
meaningless Drivel does occasionally slip into periods like this, the trick is to try to maintain control, and eventually things get back to the usual madness.

[Stevie Kaligis]

that's Nate..
you've got my 99.9% support

[Dave Vick]

Apparently, judging by the post that previously held the postion of the last post previous to this one but has been deleted (rightfully so), someone disagrees.
Anyway to implement some sort of filter in UBB to catch certain words? So fools like the last person can be blocked?
Dave
[This message has been edited by Dave Vick (edited June 25, 2001).]

[Anonymous]

The profound depths of boredom and idleness that could induce a person to log on to JavaRanch and post crude comments in Meaningless Drivel boggles the mind. "Post four-letter word in public forum" comes right after "organize paperclip collection according to size and color" on my list of things to do.

[Sahir Shibley]

This seems to be the work of some juvenile deliquent who was provoked by somebody here. Rather than blaming him, I blame those who provoked him.
Gee, I hope what we are seeing isnt the return of Tintin Herge, in that case Stevie, Rahul, and myself are to be blamed.
[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited June 25, 2001).]

[Angela Poynton]

ok I've removed the offending posts so this thread reads slightly strange ... clearly some idiot thought it was funny to use offensive words ...in other threads too! the jokes on him though ... even unregistered people get their IP logged. If they have registered I will figure out who they are eventually!

[This message has been edited by Angela Poynton (edited June 25, 2001).]

[Rahul Rathore]

Sahir, don't make wild allegations against TINTIN. By the same token these posts can be attributed to any of us.
Nate, why don't you delete the objectionable posts. You found Tit Bit's post objectionable, yet did not delete it.
I think it is better to ignore the poster and delete the post. To make remarks against the poster is too give him too much importance and to encourage him to provoke and irritate you further.

[Stevie Kaligis]

Originally posted by Dave Vick:
Apparently, judging by the last post, someone disagrees....So fools like the last person can be blocked?

After the offending post has been removed by Angela, then my post is become the last post pointed by Dave ... poor me

[This message has been edited by Stevie Kaligis (edited June 25, 2001).]

[Sahir Shibley]

Originally posted by Rahul Rathore:
Sahir, don't make wild allegations against TINTIN.

Rahul,
Sorry. I did not think anyone would take that seriously. I meant it as a joke. In hindsight it seems to be in bad taste.
However I was serious when I said this seems to be the work of someone who was provoked by people here. I did not see the thread where it happened, but it seems hard words were exchanged and someone was made to feel that he was attacked by a group of people from MD, hence these revenge posts. This is second time this sort of thing is happening here.
For the sake of maintaining MDs tranquility I request the regulars to treat all newcomers with kidgloves until you know them well enough.
Cheers
Sahir
[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited June 25, 2001).]

[Sahir Shibley]

Originally posted by Stevie Kaligis:

After the offending post has been removed by Angela, then my post is become the last post pointed by Dave ... poor me

heeeheeheeee!
I dont know why. But I find that extremely funny.

[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited June 25, 2001).]

[Stevie Kaligis]

Ooh...Here comes my Karma
Angela, Nathan, Dave .... help me on this,
then I will give you 100% support !
[This message has been edited by Stevie Kaligis (edited June 25, 2001).]

[Dave Vick]

Stevie
I fixed my post so that your post is no longer referenced.
Everyone else
I, in no way, shape or form meant that Stevei's posts should be blocked. In fact you should all apologize for hurting his feelings and implying that you do not like his posts. In fact, Stevie, I can put in touch with a good lawyer - the way things are going now you could probably get a few million.
Angela, once you find out who it is/was you could probably get his name etc from his isp or somewhere and write his parents. They probably don't know what he is doing and might even ground him or take away his tv time so he couldn't watch Barney anymore.

Dave

[Rahul Rathore]

Originally posted by Dave Vick:
Stevie
I fixed my post so that your post is no longer referenced.
Dave

Damn. That was a dirty trick. Just when I was starting to enjoy it. Now I have to delete all my posts too.

[Stevie Kaligis]

phew... I'm save now !
thank's Dave

[Dave Vick]

Originally posted by Rahul Rathore:
Damn. Now I have to delete all my posts too.

Rahul
If you delete all of your posts then someone else's posts will no longer be relevant, then they'll have to modify theirs, which will make somone else have to fix theirs, which will make someone else's .......AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

[Dave Vick]

Ok, I'm better now.

[Rahul Rathore]

(just having the last laugh)

[Andy Ceponis]

Maybe people need to relax a bit. I understand that this is supposed to be a semi-professional forum. And i know that moderators should have some control over the board but it seems like alot of posts are getting deleted here. Whether or not you agree with a post or its language is no reason to delete it. On other forums the moderator would have his status revoked for being such a power hungry llama.
I agree that some things are certainly over the line and should be taken care of, but if posts keep getting deleted it will only make people NOT want to post here because of fear of getting their posts deleted if it doesnt agree with what someone else thinks it should be. Lighten up ppl.

[Dave Vick]

Andy
The only posts I noticed being deleted were the ones with foul language in them. Except for the whole thread on religion and everything else that Conrad started (I missed that too, I wanted to see how it ended - I guess Conrad said he's not coming back?!?). I have no problem with that type being deleted, like I said in a previous post there are probably quite a few people coming here who would qualify as a minor (under 18) and it's not right that they should get exposed to that sort of language in a semi-professional forum - regardless of its name.
On the other hand, any posts that weren't offensive or blatantly out of line should not have been deleted.
On the third hand, as most of the moderators are volunteers, with lives outside of the ranch. I think they do a pretty good job of keeping things on track and eliminating the occasional bad seed. If the UBB could be modified they would have an easier job of it.
just my $.02
Dave

[Andy Ceponis]

I know that the moderators are volunteers and are giving their free time for this. Its the same with 95% of moderators everywhere.
But i think that sometimes some mods let the power go to their heads when they realize that they can run the show however they like. If its not some sort of horrible post that would make satan cringe then it should be left and if it really is that bad it will be ignored.
And as for kids on this forum that is not something that i think people should be worried about. The parents should be monitoring their kids better if they dont want them explosed to anything bad. This is the internet and Javaranch is by far one of the cleanest places around(even with the occasional outburst). And its nothing kids havent seen before. Just visit a Quake3 forum and look at the things that 10 yr old kids are saying today. Can make people sick.

[Jim Yingst]

I think that Conrad himself deleted at least one of the threads, one in which he had made the first post - "Racism shouldn't be an issue here". Annoyingly, UBB allows user to delete their own threads, even if others have subsequently posted in the thread. See the discussion here, which was just before the "racism" thread disappeared. I would agree that moderators shouldn't delete everyone's post in a thread just because some people are using excess profanity - unless the whole thread has no significant content other than the profanity.

[Nanjangud Nanjundaiah]

Howdy Jim, don't see you in these parts nowadays

[Jim Yingst]

Just lying in wait until another good puzzle appears...

[Badriprasad Bumbabol]

HI guys, was on Client Site for a few days and looks like i missed a lot here.
I missed the Controversial Thread but I guess it generated quite a reaction.
Sahir, I am not sure what are u talking abt ?? Once again , I admit being a bit too harsh on my last post but it was after talking to some people in my company who felt the same and I just had to let everyone know what the general feeling was. And as i had pointed out, I love these guy's Sense of Humour. Its really cool.
TinTin

[Angela Poynton]

Since I suspect I am the one being accused of being power hungry here I'll defend myself.
1. I only deleted threads that were created purely to spout foul language. Even the poster's name was abusive.
2. I deleted several posts within other threads for the same reason.
3. I did not delete any of Conrad's threads.
4. Javaranch's motto "A Friendly Place for Java Greenhorns". I will ensure that even in Meaningless Drivel that will be upheld.
5. We do not tolerate any of the following here.
a. Abusive Language
b. Racial abuse
c. Abuse towards people who follow a particular faith.
6. Reasoned discussions on Religion are tolerated but will be watched carefully ... if they start to turn into "My faith is right and yours in wrong" arguments, they will either be deleted, edited or closed .. whichever is most appropriate.
7. Kids do read this forum, and I and other moderators will do everything we can to protect them and the more professional people in the forum from blatently unprofessional posts.
I love this place. Most of the time it's great fun, most of the people here are cool and generally can carry out very intelligent discussions on sensitive topics without crossing the line into childish personal abuse. My job and the job of all moderators here is to keep it that way!
We don't delete threads for the fun of it. In fact often we consult with other moderators before carrying out any actions.
If I was so power hungry there are many more things I could do to show off my power to more effect than deleting a few threads.

[Nanjangud Nanjundaiah]

I agree. The moderators sense of discretion is really commendable here. Kudos!
(I'm happy as long as they don't mess with my posts, registered or unregistered )

[Andy Ceponis]

Originally posted by Angela Poynton:
1. I only deleted threads that were created purely to spout foul language. Even the poster's name was abusive.
4. Javaranch's motto "A Friendly Place for Java Greenhorns". I will ensure that even in Meaningless Drivel that will be upheld.
5. We do not tolerate any of the following here.
a. Abusive Language
b. Racial abuse
c. Abuse towards people who follow a particular faith.
I love this place. Most of the time it's great fun, most of the people here are cool and generally can carry out very intelligent discussions on sensitive topics without crossing the line into childish personal abuse. My job and the job of all moderators here is to keep it that way.
If I was so power hungry there are many more things I could do to show off my power to more effect than deleting a few threads.

Ok, i will take each point above one at a time.
Ok, so there is no foul language allowed here? What is considered foul? And just what constitutes abusive? Is it abusive to you? Or abusive to someone else?
A friendly place is one that people should feel comfortable being in. But some could argue that being so closely monitored is not exactly comfortable. Having to constantly worry if a post is going to be deleted because a moderator doesnt like it cant be all that comfortable.
What exactly is abuse? I havent seen any "abuse" on these forums. You keep on saying abuse but from the time ive been here ive never seen any abuse. Yet you delete posts and threads. I know you need to keep an eye on this place, but making everyone behave as you want them to is not in anyone's interest but yours.

[Cindy Glass]

Andy,
This is NOT a democracy. JavaRanch is wholy owned by ONE guy, and what he says goes. End of topic.
Now as a rule this guy is very easy going and let's alot of stuff slide. So, NO there is not unilateral handling of every situation. But lots of questionable stuff is ignored.
I personally asked the sheriffs to take care of the F*** word stuff. I have 3 daughters 10, 12 and 13 who like to hang out where Mom does. Of course they don't care much for the REAL forums (obvious reasons) so they hang out in Meaningless Drivel. I really don't want them to think that the word Professional means "foul mouthed".
Angela and Ajith (I think it was him) were kind enough to humor me in this reguard. If that makes this "not a friendly place" for you, I am sorry (I guess). But in truth I am GLAD that they did it.

[Mapraputa Is]

When the gardener allows all flowers grow, finally only weeds flourish.

[Andy Ceponis]

So because you have young kids that might see this forum everyone else has to abide by your wants because you can just go to the owner or sheriffs and tell them to enforce whatever you desire.
So basically whatever rules bartenders want they can impose. That sure is friendly. What other rules are looming on the horizon or are already in place that can further limit our use of the forums?

[Andrew Shafer]

Why whine like someone spanked you and took away your birthday?
Javaranch is not a democractic entity.
Javaranch can be administered in any way the powers that be see fit. What rights would be infringed if the moderators moderate?
Anyone can contact a sheriff if they have a problem with something here. That a bartenders opinions would be valued by the sheriffs doesn't seem like a big stretch of the imagination.
Is there anything specifically deleted that you don't agree should have been?

[Dave Vick]

Andy
I don't think that's fair. This is supposed to be a place where people can come and talk about Java. The owner of the site decided to include a whole slew of different forums to suite various subjects including meanless drivel for us to relax and enjoy ourselves in. The owner also decided to let/ask certain people help in the managment of the site, probably because it makes the site a better place to have more people involved in managing it.
I am resonably sure the bartenders and sherrifs don't make any kind of conscious effort to be power mongers or use the authority they have to suite themselves. I am also pretty sure that they are doing a good job, considering the fact that there is no set of specific rules or guidelines for posting. You seem to be saying that you want a set...
Any set made up will, most likely, be pretty strict to make sure all members of the forum (past, present and future) are considered. If this is the case then we could just as well say good by to meaningless drivel and a lot of other innocent posts in the other forums might not make the cut either.
Lastly, because they accepted the responsibility to make it a better place, the bartenders and sherrifs also get the authority to do so. So yes they have that power, do they abuse it? No I don't think so.
It's not a democracy, it never was, it probably never will be. It's not perfect but it runs very well and accomplishes its intended mission quite well.
just my $.02

[Cindy Glass]

Andy,
Would you consider the sort of ranting that you are throwing "friendly"?

[This message has been edited by Cindy Glass (edited June 26, 2001).]

[paul wheaton]

Since I own this joint, I suppose I should jump in here.
I'm a big fan of profanity. I try to work it into every conversation - I just like it that much. But I also know that there are times when it just isn't appropriate. For example, my favorite aunt frowns disapprovingly. Bummer.
I also know that profanity isn't generally accepted in the work place. And lots of people access the ranch from their place of work. So I like the idea that folks can comfortably come here from work.
The moderators have had to do a great deal of hard, decent work to get where they are. They've paid their dues and demonstrated that they know how to contribute in a positive way to this community. So we give them a little extra access, so they can expand their ability to contribute. Because of their history, I generally trust decisions. Very rarely does a moderator make a bad call.
I'm just one guy and this site is waaaaaay huge. We had 100,000 unique users last month and there is no way I can watch over that many people by myself! I have to trust the 30 volunteers that do all the real work around here. They all talk to each other so much, that they are all pretty much on the same page and provide a united, consistant front. And they all seem to be okay with my way of running things. So I'm a happy guy.
Unmoderated forums suck. I think the flavor of the existing forums is damn good. Whatever the formula is, I think we should stick with it and try to make contributions fall within the same vein.
Finally, with so much growth, it is possible that we might want to consider a change or two. But it seems that the best way to get those ideas of change into the heads of the authories that be would be the gentle art of persuasion ....

[Dave Vick]

Hey Paul
If you own the place and you have lots of sherrifs, shouldn't you be marshall or mayor or something?

Dave

[Eager Beaver]

If I was so power hungry there are many more things I could do to show off my power to more effect than deleting a few threads.

Angela, That came as a mild shock. We have always known you as a gentle and friendly person. The above assertion has exposed the haughty side of your persona. May I know what warranted such a declaration. I do not see anybody challenging your authority here.
cheers.....

[This message has been edited by Eager Beaver (edited June 27, 2001).]

[Andy Ceponis]

Im sorry if i seemed a bit blunt. I am not saying that people should be able to do or say anyhting they like. While im sure that this forum wouldnt get all that bad i know that this is still a semi-professional forum and should be treated as such. I guess i went about it in the wrong way.
I am very happy with the ranch. I visit it daily and have gained a ton of knowledge here(my IQ went from 2 to 2.67 ). And while i know that some people access this at work or have kids, i dont think that profanity should be downright banned. Maybe warn the people if it gets out of hand or something. Because i have seen threads that have strong sexual overtones that i dont think would be acceptable at work or for kids but they are allowed.
Sorry if i "whined" earlier. Ive had some drinks and calmed down now.

[Rahul Rathore]

Andy I too found Conrad's deleted thread quite funny. I think it ought not to have been deleted as a whole. At the most the swear words could have been edited out (or replaced with some Cap Haddock's swear words like nincompoops ).
However the owners and the managers are fully entitled to their decision, because it is a PRIVATELY OWNED SITE open to the public, FREE OF CHARGE.
And while we may differ about the wisdom of this decision, we cannot term it as arbitrary or unwarranted. There were rational reasons justifying the decision.
What about when we go to some exclusive restaurant. We abide by their dress code, enter at their descretion, and cough up our last year's savings quite happily, just to impress the girlfriend.
However we can choose not to go to that restaurant at all. There are so many other places to choose from.
Not that I am comparing JRanch to a snooty exclusive restaurant. This here is a much more friendly and liberal place. (Though now I feel frightened by Angela's threats ).
So ultimately it boils down to this: "If I don't like meat, I won't eat at McDonald's" .

[Jim Yingst]

Which thread of Conrad's are we talking about? The biggest one I recall was "Racism should not be an issue here", and as I said previously, I believe that one was deleted by Conrad. Again, read the discussion here for more evidence of this. I agree that this thread should not have been deleted - possibly a few parts might have been toned down, but not most of it by any means. I'm pretty sure Conrad deleted it simply because everyone was so thoroughly exposing the flaws in his "logic". (I say this as a fellow atheist who was embarrassed by his behavior.) It is, in my opinion, a flaw in the UBB software we use here, that it allows threads to be deleted by their originator. And moreover it's pretty childish on the part of the originator. Ah well...
As for the Conrad's "F*** you a***s" goodbye thread, I edited the subject line (the original had no asterisks) but left the rest intact. Someone else subsequently deleted it - maybe Conrad, or perhaps Ajith (from Cindy's last post) or another moderator. As I recall though, this thread didn't have much substance to it anyway - once you took out the obscenity at the beginning, it reduced to:
Conrad - I'm leaving.
Everyone else - Don't let the door hit your @#$ on the way out.
Maybe this thread didn't need to be deleted entirely (if it was deleted by a moderator), but I really don't think this one was any great loss.
I hope that clears things up...