The Busch, I mean Bush, Teen Daughters

[Tony Alicea]

This, straight from Washington from my buddies at the Secret Service: Code names for the two bush teen daughters of the appointed (vs. elected) "president" of the USA:



Jenna & Tonic
and
Barbara "Anheuser" Bush.

[Jason Menard]

the appointed (vs. elected) "president" of the USA[/b]

Your sarcasm is misplaced I'm afraid. After George Bush was elected President, some newspapers were allowed access to the disputed votes and conducted a recount after the fact. It seems the election results were reaffirmed, and the conclusion was that had the disputed votes in fact been counted, Bush's margin of victory would have likely increased.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/04/03/florida.recount/?s=2 http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2001-04-03-floridamain.htm http://www.miami.com/herald/special/news/flacount/docs/032868.htm http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a61c67674bd.htm
On a personal note, the conduct by many Democrats (and their supporters) regarding the election has been abhorant. Gore lost. Deal with it. Most are sick of hearing their whining. Bush won, despite flagrant attempts by the US media (CNN for one) to influence the outcome of the election, and the desparate attempts by the Gore camp to throw out military absentee ballots (and this man would have been Commander-in-Chief?).
Gore supporter and Time columnist Margaret Carlson on military absenteee ballots:

"Here we will have possibly a bunch of tax dodgers deciding the election."
-- Time's Margaret Carlson on Florida absentee ballots from military personnel, on MSNBC's Imus in the Morning, November 8. Florida
does not have an income tax.

On media manipulation of the election: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a10e52927a6.htm (naturally freerepublic is going to have a Bush slant, but it is still interesting reading).
I can see all this carrying on, crying, and veiled sarcastic remarks from people if Gore had in fact won the elecetion, but he didn't, and no amount of wishful thinking by the left-wing types will change this. Unfortunately it seems that when people don't get an outcome they like by playing by the rules, they do everything they can to cheat, as Gore and his supporters tried every trick they could to manipulate the election in his favor. Well buck up little campers, there will be another election for you all to try to manipulate in four years or so.

[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited June 29, 2001).]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
This, straight from Washington from my buddies at the Secret Service: Code names for the two bush teen daughters of the appointed (vs. elected) "president" of the USA:



Jenna & Tonic
and
Barbara "Anheuser" Bush.

On another note, why all the interest in the comings and goings of two teenage girls by the media? A little sad and pathetic isn't it? These girls aren't going to be able to have a sip of cough medicine without it getting reported. Anyone here not drink when they were under age?

[Cindy Glass]

Guilty! Back when I was 17 I went out with an "older man" (he was 20). So he takes me to a nightclub and orders me a drink. (The legal age back then was 18). I didn't have the nerve to admit that I wasn't yet 18 - so I just took the drink and drank it. Peer pressure is SO important at that age.
Don't tell my kids ( ).

[Richard Boren]

Drink? I don't even remember my under age

[Greg Harris]

thanks for posting that, jason... however, you are not going to sway tony's opinions. we have had the debate before and he will not accept that Bush won the election... another example of people buying into the media spin. some people are just sore losers...
also, who cares if jenna drinks when she is in college... like jason said, how many of you drank when you were in college (and under-age)? i know i did. of course, trying to pass a fake i.d. in her home state in a restaurant owned by a bed-wetting liberal was not too smart... jenna should have thought before she tried that...

[Jason Menard]

jenna should have thought before she tried that...[/B]

I don't think most 19 year olds will often be accused of always possessing the most common sense.

[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited June 29, 2001).]

[Greg Harris]

true, jason.
here is the new voting machine for the state of florida... i think it is self-explanitory.
New Voting Machine

[Anonymous]

In reference to the voting machine, what worries me is what the suspect cartoon figures to the left and right of the voting repositories are doing with the sheep and the pig respectively. Perhaps they are effigies of the political candidates. Who can tell?

[Glen Tanner]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Anyone here not drink when they were under age?

Once you're of legal age, it's just not that fun anymore.

[Shama Khan]

Under Age drinking is not in question when it comes to Bush's daughters. I think what is important to realize that these girls don't realize the celebrity status they now have. Their immaturity is inexcusable - them being the kids of the president of United States of America - the greatest nation in the world.
However, I think the media being stuck on it is a bit much. They should be given more room. But media knowing the affair of GW with the bottle, it's like an open invitation when the daughters are seen drinking (getting drunk).
I am not sure if both were drinking (getting drunk) so apologies
if I am assuming too much.
On a different note, I have never heard anything negative mentioned about Chelsea Clinton - it seems to me she is a very mature young lady.
Shama

[Jason Menard]

In my case, there was little reason for me to drink underage. Uncle Sam was kind enough to send me to the U.K to be a "tax dodger" (even though I paid full income tax) when I was 18 (drinking age there was 16 I think), and I didn't return until after I had turned 21.

[Andy Ceponis]

I cant believe all you people drank ALCOHOL before you were of legal age. Shmae on you all!!!

[Dave Vick]

Originally posted by Shama Khan:
I think what is important to realize that these girls don't realize the celebrity status they now have. Their immaturity is inexcusable -

It doesn't matter who their father is, they are still teenage kids!! I know that when I was that young you couldn't tell me anything - I knew it all. I'm sure it isn't much different for them. Yes maybe they should realize who their father is, on the other hand maybe they do realize who their father is and that's why they do it - thinking their special or just liking the attention - who knows, like I said, they're teenagers.

On a different note, I have never heard anything negative mentioned about Chelsea Clinton - it seems to me she is a very mature young lady.
Shama

Because her dad had the spotlight.

You know who I feel sorry for, is the secret service agents in charge of protecting them. What an awkward situation, you can see them doing something wrong, but you can't say anything to them. Then they probably got yelled at by their boss for letting it happen...

Dave

[This message has been edited by Dave Vick (edited June 29, 2001).]

[Andrew Shafer]

Not to change the topic, but. . .
Jason did you actually read the articles you posted about the recount or just the headlines?
Particularly the articles from CNN and the Herald?
Both articles give you two recount scenarios where Gore wins! (the CNN article is just an echo of the Herald)
Without opening the worm-can of duly elected or not, I would hardly consider these articles of proof positive either way, particularly considering the discarded ballots. Its just too easy to spin in either direction.
Did anyone read the findings of the inquiry into allegations of racial discrimination in the election?
All this coupled with the fact that brother Jeb happens to be the governor will make a great movie for our kids to watch some future day.
Now back to your regularly scheduled program . . .
Under-age kids drink, period. . .
Always have, always will
Frankly, I think the law is wrong. When I'm 18, (actually 17 in some cases) I can fight for my country, kill and be killed, and my choice for elected officials can be trusted, but there is no way I can legally be served a beer? Come on now, does that make any sense?
That these girls wanna drink just adds an episode to the pageantized dramas the media spoonfeeds about US politics.

[Greg Harris]

way back when i was in high school we were at a party in one of the nicer hotels in atlanta... our congressman's daughter went to my school, and she happened to be one of the most intoxicated girls there. she went into the hall, which had a balcony looking down on the lobby 6 floors below. she started dancing to the music that was playing for a wedding downstairs, singing and laughing really loud. of course, we got kicked-out, but because her daddy was the congressman she got off.
point is; teenagers are going to drink and party. the only reason it is a big deal with Bush's daughters is that the media is searching for dirt. if Bush was messing around with one of his interns then you would not hear about the daughters.
about Chelsea; i have heard some things about her, but i cannot remember the details so i am not going to post them... she was not an angel, she was just over shadowed by her father.
as for the Bush girls; they just had their social life taken away for the next 4 (hopefully 8) years... their entire college career is going to be in the spotlight! can you imagine going to college knowing that the media is going to be following you EVERYWHERE? you cannot be "alone" with someone because the secret service is going to be right outside the door... you cannot have a quiet dinner because the secret service will be at the next table. that must really suck!

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Andrew Shafer:
Jason did you actually read the articles you posted about the recount or just the headlines?

Yes I did read the articles. The gist is that it is more likely than not that Bush DID win the election. They do provide some scenarios under which it would have been possible for Gore to win the election, but the general conclusion is that Bush would most likely have won the election given yet another recount. I don't know anything about the Miami Herald, but I would offer that CNN is no more unbiased than freerepublic.

When I'm 18, (actually 17 in some cases) I can fight for my country

This isn't directed at you Andrew, but is more of a general statement, so please don't take offense. I've heard people say this often in reference to the drinking age. The thing I find particularly annoying, is that the vast majority who are fond of throwing this out would never dream of serving in the military. So the way I see it, if they have the Military ID, serve 'em a brew.

my choice for elected officials can be trusted

Well, there may be plenty of older people in Florida who didn't take their duties as citizens seriously enough to ensure they properly marked the ballot to reflect their wishes, so I don't think having this right necessarily means you have great wisdom.

Originally posted by Sharma Khan:
Their immaturity is inexcusable

They're nineteen, therefore I think their immaturity is excuseable.

[Dave Vick]

Originally posted by Sharma Khan:
Their immaturity is inexcusable

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
They're nineteen, therefore I think their immaturity is excuseable.

They're nineteen, therefore I think their immaturity is expected.

[Jason Menard]

Of course this entire Gore-Bush recount debate would never need to take place if either Gore could have simply won his own home state, or the media didn't manipulate the election. The latter will probably always happen, so we can at least be thankful that the folks in Tennessee know Gore so well.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited June 29, 2001).]

[Andrew Shafer]

The Herald is the newspaper that supposedly projected the recount numbers.
The initial portion of the article reports that if you recount the ballots with guidelines accepted by both parties, then Bush wins. The article says if you adopt the stricter guidelines proposed by the Republicans then ironically Gore wins. The Herald also reports that a significant number of ballots were arbitrarily discarded and they claim these ballots would likely have carried the election for Gore. I don't see how that adds up to a clear victory for Bush or Gore.
I have no emotional attachment to either of the candidates and consider most the elections in my lifetime as a choice between the evil of two lessers.
As for drinking in the military, I happened to join straight out of high school. I was never stationed overseas and I can tell you that drinking was prohibited for soldiers under 21. (To tell the truth, as an 18 year old in the Army I drank my ass off on a regular basis, but there was always the possibility of article 15 of the UCMJ looming closely and many others were punished for this)
I think the Bush girls should drink up so they can follow in their old mans footsteps.

[Tony Alicea]

"Guilty! Back when I was 17 I went out with an "older man" (he was 20). So he takes me to a nightclub and orders me a drink. (The legal age back then was 18). I didn't have the nerve to admit that I wasn't yet 18 - so I just took the drink and drank it. Peer pressure is SO important at that age."

In the very late sixties when I was 19, an older woman (20) gave me LSD in the hottest club (Duffy's) in St. Thomas where I was playing lead electric guitar with my band.
I did not have any use for the physical Kaleidoscope that I was handed by her later, since I had one in my brain already and working just fine :-)
BTW: I can say this publicly since the Dept. of Defense of the USA checked me out and even so gave a SECRET CLEARANCE in 1977: Filed under "Errors of youth" I guess...
Going back to the the Busch Girls and speaking for all the men in my Java Developer's group, we think they're cute and doable (If we could get past the Secret Service dudes!)

[Tony Alicea]

Greg:
Don't ever speak for me again.

[Greg Harris]

tony, i do not recall speaking for you... sorry if i did. i was just saying that they are not going to change your mind, so they might as well not bother bringing up the election business.
also, i have a secret clearance from the d.o.d. as well... no big deal. they give them out with a box of cracker-jacks. top secret would have been impressive.

[Tony Alicea]

All psychologists agree that it is evident that the Busch, I mean Bush, teen Daughters knew what they were doing (Hello! Surrounded by the Secret Service!) when illegally asking for liquor in the Main Street Austin bar scene.



They were trying to embarrass their alcoholic father who was a frat-boy cokehead just recently. They have no respect for him as they shouldn't and as God expects from them.



Praise be to Him!

[Tony Alicea]

"also, i have a secret clearance from the d.o.d. as well... no big deal. they give them out with a box of cracker-jacks. top secret would have been impressive."



Then you must be young and you or your employer must have requested your DOD clearance recently as compared to 25 years ago.



I was interviewed PERSONALLY TWICE by the Secret Service dudes in 1977. In those days they were NOT going to let anything slip by them. Or give clearances out in a box of cracker-jacks. NO WAY!



It was US against the SOVIET UNION. Or more precisely, the Soviet Union against US.



From what you say it is much easier to get such clearance today than it was during the Cold War.



Maybe that's why we have more espionage now than before.



I am proud to say that I in my own small way contributed to the US winning the freaking Cold War.
And that I had LSD in 1969 when I was a lead electric guitar player in a band then.
Now I am a successful Java E-Commerce Developer.



What are you?

[Greg Harris]

we have talked before, tony, but i guess you forgot.
i am not that young... i got my clearance because i was an Electronic Warfare Specialist in the United States Navy. i deployed twice to the gulf and was a part of Desert Strike, the evacuation of the US Embasy in Ethiopia and several other situations that we cannot talk about in this forum. i am proud to say that i served my country and ensured you all could sleep a little easier during the night.
what i am now does not really matter... but since you asked; i am a couple semesters away from a double degree in computer science and mathematics. after that, i do not know where i will go... that is all i am going to say about my credentials because i do not believe in bragging about one's accomplishments.

[Tony Alicea]

"i am proud to say that i served my country and ensured you all could sleep a little easier during the night."
Just as I did in the more perilous late 1970s: Electronic Warfare Software Engineering.
But who's counting? Not certainly the young male punks who are shooting out all over their High Schools because the hottest blonde didn't look at them once... Or something like that :-)
I Respect You.
God Bless Our Country.

[Greg Harris]

yes, i remember you telling me that you worked on the Lamps MK-3 system... that is impressive. we did not carry a Lamps helo on my ship so i never got to work with them.
and, i agree with you that espionoge is a direct result of the gov't giving out clearances these days. there were some real idiots with secret or above on my ship... i always wondered how they got one. we need more strict control (like it was 20 or 30 years ago).
so, i respect you as well... we just disagree on some political issues. but, i guess everyone disagrees on politics.
God bless the USA.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Greg Harris:
and, i agree with you that espionoge is a direct result of the gov't giving out clearances these days. there were some real idiots with secret or above on my ship... i always wondered how they got one. we need more strict control (like it was 20 or 30 years ago).

Actually, if you go back and look at recent espionage cases, the perpetrators had all held their clearances for a lengthy amount of time, so I don't think you can say that espionoge is a direct result of the gov't giving out clearances these days. Also, it is my understanding that the vast majority of service members hold SECRET clearances.
About the cold war, don't know if you are aware or even care, but you can apply for your Cold War Recognition Certificate if you served any time between Sept. 2, 1945 to Dec. 26, 1991. Check out http://coldwar.army.mil/ .
Jason Menard
USAF 1988-2000
Cold War
Gulf War and Post War Campaign
Bosnia
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited June 30, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited July 01, 2001).]

[Greg Harris]

i guess i did not phrase that correctly... espionage is a direct result of operatives working alone for extended periods of time with little or no supervision. the FBI guy (i forgot his name) spent way too much time on his own, but that is the nature of the business. we need to find a way to keep better control of our deep cover operatives so similar situations do not happen in the future. maybe there should be a time limit for operatives in the field.
as for my ship, probably 1/3 had secret or above... that is where my cracker-jack box comment came from. we had a lot of "deck seamen" or flight-deck guys that didn't have any clearance. so, because a secret clearance is so easy to get these days, i believe we have become too slack with security. i suppose this is really an indirect cause of espionage rather than direct. some of our top-secret guys were very immature and i do not think they understood the magnitude of the information in their possession.
and, for the cold war, i was in from '94 to '98... i do not qualify. however, a new cold war is coming along if we do not watch out.
thank you for serving your country.

[Douglas Wolfinger]

This could have been a fun topic. Still, maybe not.

[Thomas Paul]

The drinking age used to be 18 not too many years ago. The idea that at 18 you can do anything you want as an adult except drink seems bizarre to me.

[Tony Alicea]

In the USA Commonwealth of Puerto Rico the legal drinking age is still 18.
I was born and raised there and although I left the Island 25 years ago (while still visiting it often), the legal drinking age has not changed.
This is attributable exclusively to political reasons: A significant part of the local electorate is between 18 and 21 years old. So the local politicians are afraid of alienating that segment of the populace.
By now you must have noticed that the "legal drinking age" IS NOT mandated by the Federal Government. It is not.
Uncle Sam just mandates that if a state or Commonwealth does not define the legal drinking age to be 21, it can forget about receiving Federal moneys for its roads.
Afterthought: Does this explain the dismal conditions in which Puertorican roads are found?
My answer is YES!

[Greg Harris]

the "legal" drinking age in New Orleans, Louisiana is 18... they do not get federal funding for their highways/roads so the roads absolutely suck there. of course, Bourbon Street is a lot of fun when you are under 21.
also, when i was stationed in San Diego the drinking age on the base was 18. i was 24 by the time i got there so it did not really matter to me. the idea was to keep the Sailors that were under 21 from going to Mexico (specifically Tijuana) every night. there are numerous muggings and beatings every weekend because some sailor gets too drunk in Tijuana and then he is taken advantage of. however, they raised the age back to 21 when i got out in 1998.

[Jason Menard]

I went through Laughlin AFB in 1994, in Del Rio TX, near Acuna Mexico. At the time the drinking age on base was 18, also to try to encourage people not to go into Mexico. However that was the point of the trip so of course we (and those with us who were under 21 at the time) happily went into Mexico.

[Greg Harris]

oh yea, the first thing they told us when we got to the ship in San Diego was "do not go to Tijuana..." so, like any good squid (sailor), the first thing we did was go to Tijuana. of course, we got mugged the first night. they got my friend's wallet and a necklace.
the places further south in Mexico, like Ensinada or Rosarita, were actually very nice... but you had to drive there. the trolley went from the base in San Diego to the border at Tijuana. the only reason Tijuana was bad is because it was so close to the border and the locals knew they could take advantage of the tourists.

[Maky Chopra]