Win a copy of Kotlin Cookbook this week in the Kotlin forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Liutauras Vilda
  • Bear Bibeault
  • Paul Clapham
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
Sheriffs:
  • Junilu Lacar
  • Knute Snortum
  • Henry Wong
Saloon Keepers:
  • Ron McLeod
  • Tim Moores
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Tim Holloway
  • Carey Brown
Bartenders:
  • Frits Walraven
  • Joe Ess
  • salvin francis

Dvorak insults YOU

 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1365
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I've always known that John C. Dvorak from PC Magazine was a idiot, but at least it's entertaining reading his attempts at intellegence. In a recent article however, he insults me. While making a pitiful attempt to explain why Microsoft should not offer services (just programs), he goes off into a tangent in which he insults all programmers. His email address is pcmag@dvorak.org -- please read this and send him your thoughts.
Quote from PC Magazine issue for Sept. 4, 2001 pg 69:
The simple notion that "the customer is always right," with extreme emphasis on always, is lost on Microsoft. And because the company's corporate culture is akin to an introverted programmer (who always knows what is right), how can Microsoft ever expect to become a service company? And more interesting to me, why does it even care to?
One problem with the programmer's mentality is insecurity. This goes deep. An insulting college litany says that failed mathematicians become computer programmers. They are also ridiculed for being nerdy losers, for being too fat or too skinny, and for having few social skills. Most programmers can be spotted easily in a crowd. Nobody really wants to hang out with them. Put thousands of these people in one company and if you can get them to work, you become a billionaire. Thinking you can get this same group of coders to adopt a "customer is always right" mentality is sheer madness. And don't bother bringing in an expert: The programmers that rule the place will pick him apart.
(full text of the article)
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 275
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by David Garland:

One problem with the programmer's mentality is insecurity. This goes deep. An insulting college litany says that failed mathematicians become computer programmers. They are also ridiculed for being nerdy losers.


All very true. The man is a genius.

PS.
For the record. I am not a programmer

[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited August 07, 2001).]
 
David Weitzman
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1365
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
While some there may be common stereotypes about computer programmers, do you think you can easily spot one in a crowd? Would you refrain from hangin out with someone who programs?
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 782
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That guy is a moron. Sure there are stereotypes for every profession, but times change and so the the stereotypes associated with them. He is one ignorant person thats for sure.
And dont worry noone even bothers to listen to anything Sahir posts.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1012
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
hmmm, i am getting concurrent majors in Computer Science and Mathematics... what does that make me?
update: i actually went back and read the whole article... the guy has a point about Microsoft. however, his opinions about programmers are a little skewed. i think he is just jealous that he cannot make it through the Cattle Drive.
[This message has been edited by Greg Harris (edited August 07, 2001).]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 246
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think Dvorak is very funny and sharp, he is the Bill Oreilly and Chris Matthews of the IT world.

I think that he is right in that All men of every profession
believe that in their own realm they cannot learn anything from an outsider looking in. And if they do learn something they resist all the way!
Also if MS really cares about the customer, then if someone
upgrades their computer and has windows xp on it they have to call up microsoft to reset XP! Wow, I guess MS
really cares about us, since MS wants us to wait on a phone, while reinstalling or upgrading your own computer !
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 4702
9
Scala Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
While I normally agree with anyone who is bashing microsoft, his comments about programmers are ridiculous.
 
Sahir Shibley
Ranch Hand
Posts: 275
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Andy Ceponis:
And dont worry noone even bothers to listen to anything Sahir posts.


Hey, when I stay away you guys send me e-mails saying "please come back, the place is so boring without you etc.. " and when I come back you guys insult me ?
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 108
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Does a battering ram ever complain of a headache?
 
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Sahir Shibley:

Hey, when I stay away you guys send me e-mails saying "please come back, the place is so boring without you etc.. " and when I come back you guys insult me ?


That's how we can have fun here
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
"Real programmers never claim to be, only wannabees. To find a real programmer, you must go on a pilgrimage to a dark corner with a strange blue glow, following the trail of ho-ho's and jolt can's... You may ask the programmer there if he is, but he/she probably won't speak in a language you understand. If the response is incomprehensible, you've found what you're looking for. Another good test is to ask the correct time and date... the most profound programmers hate clocks, callenders, and shun all time references... This coupled with the fact that they often don't see daylight leads them to misinterperate questions about time and space. If you ask the time and date, and the answer is off by a day or more plus a few hours then you've probably found one.
>Please understand that, I program completely bulk necked while listening to
>hard rock(just as the Gurus would do), I often mix shampoo with my beer and
>I manage to be avoided by women, but I still don't feel quite programmer
Contrary to popular belief, simply being avoided by women does not guarantee that you are (or will be) a programmer. Personal hygiene problems and psychotic ravings are often indications of programming, but they are not a guarantee as there are other ailments which lead to these same conditions."
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?YouKnowYouAreaRealProgrammerWhen

[This message has been edited by Mapraputa Is (edited August 08, 2001).]
 
tumbleweed
Posts: 5089
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dvorak insults himself !!
 
Randall Twede
Ranch Hand
Posts: 4702
9
Scala Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Map,
I must admit THAT has a grain of truth in it
 
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dvorak actually hasn't written any code in 20 years. He admitted that in another article. I wonder if he thinks the X-Files is real?
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 320
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
(Sending this to him now).
Hi
Your article on Services Conundrum of September 4, 2001 in Pc Magazine has openned up my eyes.
It seems you have taken the worse that can be found in today's internet culture and made it your own. The web has been accused of giving uninformed people the abilty to reach an audience. I now consider myself reached by an uninformed person.
You have shown me that even though the magazine you represent has flashes of brilliance in past articles you have successfully taken it in the other direction and given me a flash of utter ignorance. Especially of the audience your magazine attempts to reach. I hope my fellow "introverted programmers (who always knows what is right)", prove that and refuse to put up with your insulting remarks.
Looking at the contents of this article I have been wondering if it is not you that wrote this but the proverbial "1000 Monkeys at 1000 typewriters", I may never know, but, I'm sure their works would be less insulting.
If you need to reach me for comments.. I can be found "being too fat or too skinny", "having no social skills" and most probably "spotted easily in a crowd." because "Nobody really wants to hang out with me" anyway.

[This message has been edited by John Bateman (edited August 08, 2001).]
 
Desperado
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I didn't read the replies (why, I ask!) but...
Dvorak knows more than most of you, and you should read him carefully. If you don't agree with him in one or two things he says, that's fine.
(If you disagree with everything he says then YOU need a tuneup.)
He's been writing about this stuff forever (since the early 1980s in BYTE magazine). And you? (No need to answer dude.)
So all of you just keep quiet and DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Don't make a fool of yourselves (at least in PUBLIC). Unless you really want to, which is fine with US.
 
David Weitzman
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1365
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
I didn't read the replies (why, I ask!) but...
Dvorak knows more than most of you, and you should read him [b]carefully
. If you don't agree with him in one or two things he says, that's fine.
(If you disagree with everything he says then YOU need a tuneup.)
He's been writing about this stuff forever (since the early 1980s in BYTE magazine). And you? (No need to answer dude.)
So all of you just keep quiet and DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Don't make a fool of yourselves (at least in PUBLIC). Unless you really want to, which is fine with US. [/B]


Does being old (and possibly senile) make you intellegent? I realize that in many cultures being old gives you special status, but even at that it doesn't make you're opinions magically valid. I will admit that Dvorak has said some intellegent things (which I attribute to the shear number of things he has said).
When you say that Dvorak knows more than most of us, what do you claim that he knows about? Computer history? I find that most of the things he says are just randomly chosen rants -- not supported and generally about how its sad the way computing has declined since the 'good old days' when he knew what was going on.
You are entitled to agree with him, but in future posts you might state what he has said that you agree with and perhaps even provide the evidence that he hasn't.
 
John Bateman
Ranch Hand
Posts: 320
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
I didn't read the replies (why, I ask!) but...
Dvorak knows more than most of you, and you should read him carefully. If you don't agree with him in one or two things he says, that's fine.
(If you disagree with everything he says then YOU need a tuneup.)
He's been writing about this stuff forever (since the early 1980s in BYTE magazine). And you? (No need to answer dude.)
So all of you just keep quiet and DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Don't make a fool of yourselves (at least in PUBLIC). Unless you really want to, which is fine with US.


I could easily agree with your comment about him "knowing more then most of us" if it was solely directed at his knowledge/experience in the I.T. field.
The problem I have is his comments about the social inadequecies of most computer programmers. His opinion (which I disagree with) is so far off the mark to be insulting.
If his article stuck to MS and their attempt at moving to a more service oriented company, then, maybe I would have been fine, but, to me, he crossed the line when his article became a forum for his personal psychological analysis of a programmer.
Saying programers are "too fat or too skinny" and "having no social skills" is a falsehood.
I've been a programmer for almost 15 years. seeing such a well established magazine publish comments like this began to sicken me.
Unfortunately, I just can't keep quiet when I get this riled up.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 49
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by David Garland:
I've always known that John C. Dvorak from PC Magazine was a idiot, but at least it's entertaining reading his attempts at intellegence. In a recent article however, he insults me. While making a pitiful attempt to explain why Microsoft should not offer services (just programs), he goes off into a tangent in which he insults all programmers. His email address is pcmag@dvorak.org -- please read this and send him your thoughts.
Quote from PC Magazine issue for Sept. 4, 2001 pg 69:
The simple notion that "the customer is always right," with extreme emphasis on always, is lost on Microsoft. And because the company's corporate culture is akin to an introverted programmer (who always knows what is right), how can Microsoft ever expect to become a service company? And more interesting to me, why does it even care to?
One problem with the programmer's mentality is insecurity. This goes deep. An insulting college litany says that failed mathematicians become computer programmers. They are also ridiculed for being nerdy losers, for being too fat or too skinny, and for having few social skills. Most programmers can be spotted easily in a crowd. Nobody really wants to hang out with them. Put thousands of these people in one company and if you can get them to work, you become a billionaire. Thinking you can get this same group of coders to adopt a "customer is always right" mentality is sheer madness. And don't bother bringing in an expert: The programmers that rule the place will pick him apart.
(full text of the article)


Guess my wife (who is definetly not a NERD) would disagree here.
[This message has been edited by Robert Brunner (edited August 09, 2001).]
 
and POOF! You're gone! But look, this tiny ad is still here:
Java file APIs (DOC, XLS, PDF, and many more)
https://products.aspose.com/total/java
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!