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Clash of Civilizations!!

 
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:
1. The original poster meant, I think, to say that other people discussing on this forum have internet access and can know stuff without actually setting foot in another country just Jason or Thomas are doing.


No, you are mistaken.

2. I'll bet that his question, "What percentage of your population has access to the Internet?" was not a genuine request for information but a satire. I think that because this question has no relevence in the discussion. Also, I don't think that you are so naive to believe that his was a genuine request for information.


Wrong again.
I have not been to India. My knowledge of the place is based purely on reading, conversations with people on the internet, interactions with people in college (if you've been to a US University's Comp Sci program you will understand), and talking to relatives who've spent significant time in the country who've generally said positive things (as they were teachers, I believe they may have been doing missionary work, which is just hilarious in this context).
However, what I and others have been arguing against this entire time is bigotry, extremism, supremacy, and this attitude that "we know what's best for our poor". These issues transcend national boundaries and do not require any particular insight. As these issues are universal, national sensitivities or justifications for such actions are irrelevant for any reason other than to understand the possible origins of such beliefs.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
Maybe you guys just don't not understand each other. Its so very complex.


No doubt.

No english. Its really interesting. I thought to post here my own traduction, but then I forgot. I will post if I find it.


Cool. Thanks.
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

"we know what's best for the poor and tribals and we will dictate for them"


I believe you are refereing to me but I did not say that. In fact, you guys have a complex of knowing what is best for the world. You have your own notions of morality and of right and wrong and you want to apply that to all cases.
I have no objection to what you think is best for your country, and on the same note, I also believe that I have the right to decide what is good for my country. And when I say, "I", I do not mean it as a dictator. I mean it as a citizen of my country. And I will execise my right by supporting and voting the party that I think is right.
The original discussion started when you, Jason, applied your logic to prove that giving a justification is as good as supporting it. In spite of the fact that fact that several other people such as Map, have trashed you theory, you are still persisting with it. Fine, that's your call.
I never said that I supported buring the missionaries alive but you are hell bent on proving that I do support it. What I said before, and what I am saying it again, is WE DO NOT WANT CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES or MULLAHS. Their "help" at the cost of conversion is NOT ACCEPTABLE.
It has been made clear to them in no uncertain terms throught the very obvious hostility of the local population. And as you know, not everybody in villages is educated (that's the reason missionaries went there, right? to show the light of Jesus? Right?). So, in their fit of anger or what ever, if they burn the missionary alive, I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE. While I did not and will not instigate anybody to do that, I have no sympathy towards the vitims beyond what is there for anybody who accidentaly dies in fire at work. It is a hazard that comes with the job of converting tribals. If you can't take it, get out of there. Nobody forced you to be there.
 
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:

1. The original poster meant, I think, to say that other people discussing on this forum have internet access and can know stuff without actually setting foot in another country just Jason or Thomas are doing. May be they have been to other countries but not in India about which we are talking about here.
2. I'll bet that his question, "What percentage of your population has access to the Internet?" was not a genuine request for information but a satire. I think that because this question has no relevence in the discussion. Also, I don't think that you are so naive to believe that his was a genuine request for information.


Stuart Smalley (not a registered therapist) said it best - "if you assume something, you make an a** of you and me" (u and me).
Betting and thinking about what other people mean by their words is dangerous - it leads to clashes! This is especially true when drawing conclusions based on incomplete information.
I keep going back to the fact that this is a discussion on the "clash of civilizations" - step back one step. What repeatedly is happening is that one side disagrees with another because of a definition that does not hold the same meaning for both sides, which is what civilizations often clash over. Or at least they do on Star Trek. (humour, not sarcasm)
Sometimes, a bald answer like ".02%" may be all it takes to halt an unecessary (read pointless) discussion and stick to the issue at hand. If you think that percentage of internet users has no relevence in the discussion (which I agree with), then this reply (.02%, or whatever factual number you can find on the internet) can stop an argument stillborn.
However, if your desire is to argue pointless issues, then I can not stop you. A caveat - by this statement, I am not stating that this is your intent.
As for my naivete - there was no evidence I could find that definitively said to me - "this is sarcasm", so I went on what the words said. Perhaps you know Jason better than I. I've found in the past that erring on the side of caution avoids pointless arguments, and (in the cases where sarcasm was implied), tones down on sarcasm in future dialogue.
Just my opinion - YMMV.
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:
1. The original poster meant, I think, to say that other people discussing on this forum have internet access and can know stuff without actually setting foot in another country just Jason or Thomas are doing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, you are mistaken.


Jason, from my understanding, the original poster was not you, so you can only offer your opinion on the matter. This opinion may or may not agree with Pakka's, but it is only an opinion. The only one who can say what the original poster meant is the original poster - Ashok.
Geez, I sound like the thought police here...
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Wrong again.


You mean to say, you really wanted to know what % of population has internet access in India? Give me a break.


However, what I and others have been arguing against this entire time is bigotry, extremism, supremacy, and this attitude that "we know what's best for our poor".


Yes, I, as a citizen, know (that is my belief, like it or not) what is best for my country and this includes rich as well as poor.
If I don't know, how do YOU know what is best for my country???


These issues transcend national boundaries and do not require any particular insight. As these issues are universal, national sensitivities or justifications for such actions are irrelevant for any reason other than to understand the possible origins of such beliefs.


I believe, you are completely wrong. You cannot apply the same set of parameters of right and wrong to everywhere. And so you cannot apply the same solution to all the places. Different issues plague different countries, and their solution does require a deep insight into the social, economical and political condition of that country, which you do not have about India, while I do. As you said, your understanding is limited to reading etc., you cannot comprehend the complexity of the situations in India.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:
I believe you are refereing to me but I did not say that.


A similar sentiment has been suggested by many of you. That is not an exact quote, merely a paraphrase.

In fact, you guys have a complex of knowing what is best for the world. You have your own notions of morality and of right and wrong and you want to apply that to all cases.


Are you implying that human rights are not universal? Are you implying that hate should be tolerated anywhere?

I have no objection to what you think is best for your country, and on the same note, I also believe that I have the right to decide what is good for my country.


You don't get it. This has nothing to do with countries. We are talking about the treatment of people. These concepts are universal.

And when I say, "I", I do not mean it as a dictator. I mean it as a citizen of my country. And I will execise my right by supporting and voting the party that I think is right.


You are right. But don't express surprise or anger when others think people who support such policies are backwards or morally corrupt.

The original discussion started when you, Jason, applied your logic to prove that giving a justification is as good as supporting it.


Ummm... that was on page 4.

In spite of the fact that fact that several other people such as Map, have trashed you theory, you are still persisting with it. Fine, that's your call.


Map and I came to an agreement. There was no trashing, least of all by you and your cronies.

I never said that I supported buring the missionaries alive but you are hell bent on proving that I do support it.


You stated support for the people who committed the act, "100%".

What I said before, and what I am saying it again, is WE DO NOT WANT CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES or MULLAHS. Their "help" at the cost of conversion is NOT ACCEPTABLE.


Who is "we"? The people who benefit from the aid? Or the people who feel threatened at the choices made by others? My question is is it the fact that they are turning away from Hinduism that bothers you because you support your religion, or the fact that you feel threatened by the empowerment of the lower castes and what that might mean to your position in society?

It has been made clear to them in no uncertain terms throught the very obvious hostility of the local population. And as you know, not everybody in villages is educated (that's the reason missionaries went there, right? to show the light of Jesus? Right?).


But it is not the people who are receiving the help that have committed these acts. The people who have committed these acts have been members of pre-existing hate groups (BJP, etc...).

So, in their fit of anger or what ever, if they burn the missionary alive, I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE.


At least the German people accepted responsibility for turning their heads and doing nothing when the Jews were shipped off to the camps.

While I did not and will not instigate anybody to do that,


You don't see supporting an organization ("100%") that helps perpetrate such acts as instigation?

I have no sympathy towards the vitims beyond what is there for anybody who accidentaly dies in fire at work. It is a hazard that comes with the job of converting tribals. If you can't take it, get out of there. Nobody forced you to be there.


How anybody cannot have immense sympathy for an eight year old boy and a ten year old boy who were burned alive is outside my realm of understanding. The fact that anybody would place responsibility for their murders anywhere other than in the hand's of the killers is equally beyond me. This wasn't the only act though. There have been many others, and many equally horrible murders. Such sentiments as you continuously express speak for themselves though, and really don't require me to say much more.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:
Jason, from my understanding, the original poster was not you, so you can only offer your opinion on the matter. This opinion may or may not agree with Pakka's, but it is only an opinion. The only one who can say what the original poster meant is the original poster - Ashok.


It's my understanding he was referring to something I posted, which was a response to something Ashok said. If I am mistaken, my appologies.
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:

Yes, I, as a citizen, know (that is my belief, like it or not) what is best for my country and this includes rich as well as poor.
If I don't know, how do YOU know what is best for my country???
I believe, you are completely wrong. You cannot apply the same set of parameters of right and wrong to everywhere. And so you cannot apply the same solution to all the places. Different issues plague different countries, and their solution does require a deep insight into the social, economical and political condition of that country, which you do not have about India, while I do. As you said, your understanding is limited to reading etc., you cannot comprehend the complexity of the situations in India.


You raise an interesting point Pakka - that you believe you know what is right for your country.
No sarcasm intended - with all the comparisons of teenage pregnancy rates between India and America, compare the voting turnout between the two. I would be willing to bet that India's is higher. This says (to me) that maybe her citizens believe in their democracy more, that maybe more citizens are willing to involve themselves in politics. Cynics might well say that those extra votes are "bought" votes. I stand by my statement.
Pakka, you then say that Jason can not comprehend the complexity of the situation here in India. What that sounds like to me is that he does not have the intelligence to - well, basically you just called him stupid. If so, then for me, your finely crafted words collapse like a house of cards. (sorry, that's just the way it is with me). He may not know everything there is to know about the situation (who does?), but give him some credit in the intellect department. I'm sure he gives you some credit.
"I'm right because you're stupid" - in the interest of fair debate, please come up with a better argument than that.
 
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Okay, now that's me! What I meant by 'we do have internet in India too' is... I donno!! Just Kidding.
That was in response to Jasons comment challenging my knowledge of NI history. And earlier most of his posts almost implied that I know nothing about what happens in India either. And one more, that I/(others Indians) know nothing at all about US History, which could be true relatively.
Well, I have been living (not in a underground basement, but in the middle of all those activities I should add) in India for 25 good years of my life and rest of it here in Ireland. You can see that many of the non-American posters have commented on American history and most of them were also willing to accept it when there were proven wrong. Well, vice versa, its not working. So I said, some one here has a small CNN window, which is, as rest of the world knows, highly biased.
Now, he also challenged my knowledge of NI history, where I am breathing, thinking and discussing NI peace process and rioting everyday, and that was not good enough.
I am under the belief that Internet provides the major source of information into such wide range of issues, and like Jason many other posters (Indian or otherwise) does have the same access, and they (or we) are not bluffing just because we have some free time!
Also I wanted to make sure that he knows that we all have access to media over internet as he does, and slightly unlikely that everyone else is ALWAYS wrong.
 
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:

Yes, I, as a citizen, know (that is my belief, like it or not) what is best for my country and this includes rich as well as poor.
If I don't know, how do YOU know what is best for my country???



Well Pakka, Jason is Encyclopedia Britannica personified so he knows what is best for you and your country and what is causing the problem (Thsi might be attributed to the fact that even though he has not been to India he knows more about your country because he has a Computer Science curricullum in his college and he talked to people on chat) .

And Thomas Where did you get your Teenage pregnancy numbers from ??
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Pranav Jaidka ]
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
What is wrong is wrong. Murder is always wrong. Suppressing freedom of speech is always wrong. Suppressing freedom of religion is always wrong. Suppressing freedom of the press is always wrong.


Totally with you Thomas.
If I may add, calling our elected government a bunch of Hindu extremists, as may of you do, many times, is also wrong!
 
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go to page 12 ....
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:

Pakka, you then say that Jason can not comprehend the complexity of the situation here in India. What that sounds like to me is that he does not have the intelligence to - well, basically you just called him stupid. "I'm right because you're stupid" - in the interest of fair debate, please come up with a better argument than that.


No, I did not mean that he cannot comprehend because he is stupid or unitelligent. In fact, I also gave the reason a sentence before that for why he cannot comprehend. The reason is his knowledge is limited only to reading books and meeting people who have been to India. This is all third and second hand information. This information is as much misleading as it is leading. To get a true picture and understanding about a complex country like India, I believe, you have to live there for years. And that too not only in 5 start hotels but living like an ordinary citizen. And I guess, that would be true for any country not just India.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
Well, I will shrug it off my shoulder with good belief that it is still better than that small highly biased CNN window view of India that you have and at least as much as you know about other things in the world. We have that thing called 'internet' in India too, if you haven't noticed yet!


Originally posted by me:
What percentage of your population has access to the Internet?


My point is that some here are contending to represent a majority viewpoint in India. Since he was proud to mention how they have the Internet in India, it leads me to wonder how widespread access is (I have my suspiscions).
We are hearing pretty much one viewpoint in this thread. They claim it is the majority. However since a large percentage of the Indian population is in poverty, and doubtfully has any Internet access, it occurs to me that what we are really hearing is the viewpoints of the privileged few (the same group we work with and see in our universities). These privileged few claim that they know what is best for the great unwashed masses. In reality I suspect that they know what is best for themselves. It really doesn't matter though since we cannot get the viewpoint of the people who are actually the one's suffering.
 
Anonymous
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Missionaries are also human beings. It is possible that *some* of them may be doing things that could be right for them and worng for the society.
Pakka Desi, why do you think all missionaries are bad.
Jason, why do you thik that all missionaries are perfect. If missionaries are doing good job and appreceated by everybody here doesn't mean that they are doing good job across whole world. They are human beings and they *may* make mistakes. If somebody has seen personally what they are doing why can't you accept it.
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Or perhaps you didn't like the answers so you ignored them. Why not ask the questions again and we will see if we can answer them?


Nope, there was no answer posted. Thats why!
Context: General argument from may posters - Religious tolerance is what missionary work is all about, and missionaries teach the same.
Question: Are the missionaries tolerant to the religion poor and needy already follow, that is economically (not due to caste-im as we have discussed before) poor and needy?!
 
R K Singh
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My objections were to a poster's support for people who murder innocents.


Oh , so that is the problem.
I OR anyone of us wont mind if you take that poster's name who support that barbaric act.
But I think you want to refer Pakka Desi OR if its me, then I wont repeat that everyone has condemned that act.(repeating 4-5th time)
PEACE, PEACE , PEACE .....
From page ONE.
[Pakka Desi]
I support RSS and VHP 100%.
[/Pakka Desi]
[Jason]
if I'm not mistaken, one of their favorite tactics is to burn people alive, including missionaries and their children. Nice bunch of people to throw your support behind 100%.
[/Jason]
[Pakka Desi]
First, neither VHP nor RSS support bunring people alive and neither do I.
[/Pakka Desi]
And I think no human will support killing of any person in the name of religion.
So look no one is supporting the people who murdered innocents.
But forced OR whatever you want to call it... OR even I dont need definition of your freedom. I/We condemned forced conversion.
But still I dont understand why some people were trying to save specially catholic missioanries ??

Someone made a comment about the rate in the US suggesting that India did not have this problem. The overall teenage pregnancy rate in the US is about 8%. The overall rate in India is about 14%.


That someone actually read somewhere that "Teenage pregnancy in U.S.A. more than double rate in Europe."
He did not want to say anything abt India, but if you are talking abt India, then try to see that in 14% how many are married and in 8% how many girls are married?? (frankly, .........I am sure in US unmarried pregnancies are more than Inida, this time someone is saying India and comparing with US)
Someone just wanted to say that in US teenage pregnancy might be high and you might be usual to it but for some it might not be a usual thing.
AW to finish it off, look my dear Jason, no one supports killing of innocent people whether they support VHP/RSS or do not support.
But both are against forced conversion, which for US as per their definition of freedom is not forced, but as per Indian society is forced.
I hope that now we will have sound sleep.
huh........
PS: in the discussion, if I have hurt anyone intentially OR unintentially, I beg your pardon.
And now, no Allah, No Jesus, I am not coming back.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Pranav Jaidka:
Well Pakka, Jason is Encyclopedia Britannica personified so he knows what is best for you and your country and what is causing the problem (Thsi might be attributed to the fact that even though he has not been to India he knows more about your country because he has a Computer Science curricullum in his college and he talked to people on chat) .


Your ability to interpret seems challenged. Again, let me help you out. I first claimed that my knowledge of India was very finite. I then went on to say the issues we are talking about have little to do with India and in fact transcend national boundaries. Try to comprehend this because it seems a difficult concept for you: these are moral issues that are universal regardless of location. We are debating moral absolutes and you are trying to say they don't apply to you. Nobody is buying that.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by <DKL>:
Jason, why do you thik that all missionaries are perfect. If missionaries are doing good job and appreceated by everybody here doesn't mean that they are doing good job across whole world. They are human beings and they *may* make mistakes. If somebody has seen personally what they are doing why can't you accept it.


I don't believe that all missionaries are perfect. I have even said as much in one of these posts. They are human and therefore they aren't perfect. I don't even dispute that some of what they are claiming is occuring.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by <DKL>:

Pakka Desi, why do you think all missionaries are bad.


I am not saying all missionaries are bad. But I believe most of them, in India, have ulterior motives, from my POV. From missionaries POV, may be they are doing god's work).
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I won't argue with you. Certain things are or should be very black and white though. Not everything is a shade of grey. If we go back to the begining, or at least take a good look at what I've been saying throughout, my objections were to a poster's support for people who murder innocents. The reasons given by him and the people who rushed to support his position were often blatant displays of bigotry, extremism, and supremacy. The fact that one group is of one religion and another group is of a different religion means little to me. My opinion is the same regardless.
Now the topic has meandered since then, and some of us who have an understanding of Christianity have been commenting on how we disagree with their characterization of what forced conversion is. This lead us to see that in addition to the bigotry, extremism, and supremacy, there was blatant classism (caste-ism if you prefer) and a lack of willingness to respect the personal choices of others. There was also shown a very high-handed "we know what's best for the poor and tribals and we will dictate for them" that has been repeatedly displayed.
They constantly throw together actions which are taken by some Indian Christians along with all missionaries. They seem to be one and the same to them. Do I doubt that there are some unethical activities undertaken by Christians in India? Not at all. What I do doubt is some of the blanket characterizations that have been made, as well as their characterizations of the motivation behind attacks on Christians and missionaries.
There are certain moral positions which people shouldn't waiver from, imho. If that comes off as something being viewed in terms of black-and-white, so be it. If arguing against things like extremism, bigotry, and supremacy pisses people off, I sure won't lose any sleep over it.


Mr. Jason,
Let me make my point with numbers (if it helps you to understand it much better), before you go and lecture about how we are bad mean persons against poor and chiristians and how we dont care about poor people and all other sort of crap.
1. All hindus (even the so called hindu extremist, but except very few )condemn the crime committed against minorities (that includes missionaries)
2. We agree that missionaries doing great service to poor people in India (the debate is against the method they use)
3. No one wants to throw anyone out of our country (except some extremist, I dont see any in this forum).
4. No one says anything against chiristians, muslims living in India
5. We do adress our caste problem (BTW, do you address "racism" problem in US? Can you say there is no racist activity happening in the western world? ). I will talk to any Indian about the the caste system in an Indian forum. I dont want non-Indian to make any stupid comment about it without even understand what it is and how long it is there and how we are tackling the situation now.
6. We do help our fellow citizens. I joined in an NGO organization when I was 15 and I couldnt continue after 17 since I had to concentrate on studies and I/we still help fellow Indians. I can provide some links about NGO's run by Indians if you care to see.
Try to understand what other people are trying to say instead of blindly opposing them and calling them intolerant and all (BTW, you and your friends are the one started personal attacks against me).
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

By stirring up hatred against the missionaries, you are indeed responsible for their murders.


If someone in US crusing and telling people that these people are bad, as I am told that this is common and comes under definition of freedom. Now if someone goes and kill one of those people, then who is responsible ???
Someone was right, Bhaiya, I dont have that much brain and power to play with words.
But the problem is that, even if I say you are great, just for the sake of to end the argument. They will say that I could not prove my point.
Only God knows how can someone prove his point to these educated people.
[I have to come as when I started replying, and when I posted my response, in between there were more than 10 replies ]
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

We are debating moral absolutes and you are trying to say they don't apply to you.


What is your moral absolute? Converting poor by fraudulent means? Let every body buy your moral absolute, I don't.
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by <Paka Desi>:

No, I did not mean that he cannot comprehend because he is stupid or unitelligent. In fact, I also gave the reason a sentence before that for why he cannot comprehend. The reason is his knowledge is limited only to reading books and meeting people who have been to India. This is all third and second hand information. This information is as much misleading as it is leading. To get a true picture and understanding about a complex country like India, I believe, you have to live there for years. And that too not only in 5 start hotels but living like an ordinary citizen. And I guess, that would be true for any country not just India.


Pakka:
Thanks for your clarification. By saying "Jason can not comprehend India", and leave it at that, that's where I got confused. By saying "I believe Jason can't comprehend India UNTIL he lives there for years,"; that shows me clearly what your argument is. I did not make any assumptions about your argument - I only read what the words said. This is not a condemnation of your skills in the English language, (your knowledge of a second language far outweighs my knowledge of a second language), I just want to make sure I understand your point.
I've always found that when people offer advice, you are not contractually obligated to take it. This is true of Jason's (or mine, even). Feel free to ignore the advice, but remember that even as ill informed as we are, we may yet offer a grain of wheat amongst the chaff.
 
Ashok Mash
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I am afraid the Ranch Server is going to explode due to this high traffic.
There is at least 5 posts every minute in this tread, and that will need at least 20 hits (ignoring the edits, and back-fwd etc) from 5 individual users. And then there is countless number of people reading it, or thinking of responding to it, and as I do, most of them might be refreshing it every 1 minute!
Oh god! No wonder old and wise always advice to not to discuss religion! It could crash a server! They knew it!
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I then went on to say the issues we are talking about have little to do with India and in fact transcend national boundaries.


But I am talking about India and its problem of FROCED conversion.
For some people which is not forced OR is not wrong.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:

Pakka:
Thanks for your clarification. By saying "Jason can not comprehend India", and leave it at that, that's where I got confused.


You got confuesed because probably you did not read the sentence in its entirity. I wrote, "As you said, your understanding is limited to reading etc., you cannot comprehend the complexity of the situations in India.".
May be it is not grammatically 100% correct but I think it conveys the point why he cannot comprehend. Anyway, thats not the issue, so let's not drag it any longer.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
Context: General argument from may posters - Religious tolerance is what missionary work is all about, and missionaries teach the same.


If you think that is the general argument you haven't been reading what we've been saying.
The general arguments are that some of what you are claiming is "forced" conversion in many circumstances is not. We are arguing that people, whether or not they are rich and educated, have freedom of choice, whether or not you like that choice. We are also arguing that many of the comments have undertones of bigotry, support for extremism, and supremacist view points.

Question: Are the missionaries tolerant to the religion poor and needy already follow, that is economically poor and needy?!


I can't speak for every missionary to ever go to India so I will not. I can speak to basic Christian tenants. Christianity teaches tolerance for others. At the same time it teaches that the word of Christianity must be spread. You can tell a missionary that their religion is not right for you, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to hold a conversation with you anyway and extoll the virtues of Christianity. This doesn't mean he doesn't respect your viewpoint, merely hopes that he can talk to you about what he believes is a better way.
Think of it this way. Let's say that you live and breathe Java. Nothing interests you more than Java. Do you not take every opportunity to talk to people who might be interested about Java and say how great it is? You might take the opportunity to post on message forums dedicated to C++ and other languages saying how great Java is, and how you feel it's best in most circumstances. Sun even gives you a little Sun sticker which they hope you will display, thereby encouraging you to spread the good word of Java. Does this mean you are not tolerant of people who've only programmed in Perl, or C++? Not at all, you just hope to show them a better way. It's pretty much the same for most missionaries I would expect.
 
Pranav Jaidka
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Your ability to interpret seems challenged. Again, let me help you out. I first claimed that my knowledge of India was very finite. I then went on to say the issues we are talking about have little to do with India and in fact transcend national boundaries. Try to comprehend this because it seems a difficult concept for you: these are moral issues that are universal regardless of location. We are debating moral absolutes and you are trying to say they don't apply to you. Nobody is buying that.


Jason posting last is not like playing Tag ......He who posts the last reply does not win the argument.
It is a ridiculous argument that 'Moral Absolutes' transcend geographical locations when no one in this thread has denied Murder Is wrong. Why are you even talking about this . It was you alone who cleverly proved that since you do not shout out loud that Murder is Wrong you support it.
And you say My ability to interpret is challenged !!! :roll:
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Pranav Jaidka ]
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
In reference to the NI comments, I'm sorry if you lack the ability to objectively study history. But back to the topic at hand... I never claimed anything about "Hindu society". I did claim that apparently secularism in India is a myth. You seem to be backing that up by equating India to Hindu society. If secularism were more than a catch phrase, I'm don't think we have that mistake made. If you are not equating India to Hindu society, then you must be saying that there exists a greater Hindu society inside India, which somehow must stand apart from the secular Indian society. If that were the case, then again secularism would be a myth, as the various religions choose to hold themselves apart from society as a whole.


Since my good socity restrict me not to hurt people even with words, I wont call you "stupid", "ignorant" or "fool". Can you tell me what did you mean when you say "I did claim that apparently secularism in India (man,there is no double bold )is a myth." What is "India" by your definition? Let me think what you come up..
"The damn trees, plants, birds in India is not secular. Where did I say anything about people living in India. After all, people are then one forming the socity. I wouldnt say anything about them."
or
"There is a stupid person called "India" living in 12, abcd road, nowhere city, nowhere land. That idiot is not secular to other people. I didnt mean to say anything about the good people of India".
For your general knowledge, India has another name called "Hindustan". Search on the web if you need more information about what it means and why do they call it like that. If you dont like to, just ask anyone of us atleast. Or, like you usually do, Ignore it and pick something else and continue on.
And one more thing, when you say "xyz" country is intolerant or unsecular, generally, that implies to the majority population. I hope you know who is the majority people in India
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Christianity teaches tolerance for others. At the same time it teaches that the word of Christianity must be spread. You can tell a missionary that their religion is not right for you, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want to hold a conversation with you anyway and extoll the virtues of Christianity. This doesn't mean he doesn't respect your viewpoint, merely hopes that he can talk to you about what he believes is a better way.
Think of it this way. Let's say that you live and breathe Java. Nothing interests you more than Java. Do you not take every opportunity to talk to people who might be interested about Java and say how great it is? You might take the opportunity to post on message forums dedicated to C++ and other languages saying how great Java is, and how you feel it's best in most circumstances. Sun even gives you a little Sun sticker which they hope you will display, thereby encouraging you to spread the good word of Java. Does this mean you are not tolerant of people who've only programmed in Perl, or C++? Not at all, you just hope to show them a better way. It's pretty much the same for most missionaries I would expect.


1. What christianity or any religion teaches is well known. But that is not what is being practiced for ages. Otherwise there would not have been crusades in the past. Christianity may preach love or whatever, but the pastors do not. Same is the problem with mullahs. Islam may be a great religion and may preach love for all, but mullahs do not. Unfortunately, poor and uneducated do not care to understand the difference between pastor and christianity or mullah and Islam.
2. Son of a Java programmer may become a C++ programmer or a hotdog vendor. But son of a christian will always be a christian. And since the son does not have any idea about why his father converted (who may be converted due to change in heart), he, by the acts of pastors and mullahs gets intolerant of his own origins. This problem gets compounded generation by generation. I suspect that you don't have any idea what I am talking about. That's why I said before, one solution does not fit all and your measurments do not apply everywhere.
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Think of it this way. Let's say that you live and breathe Java. Nothing interests you more than Java.


That's a really bad example, Jason. What if I like my mother a lot? Should I go around my friend's houses and say how great my mother is? Doesn't that imply how not-so-good their mom's are?
Now, again, that impression that you have about Christian missionaries in India, if that was true, I would be more than happy and would have changed sides in this thread long back! Unfortunately its not.
Well, now I see we have come a full circle. This is exactly what I was posting before - 'Unfortunately things are not that perfect in here', and then things went all wrong from there when some one ( :roll: ) emphatically implied that nothing is going wrong in India, and I was, hmmm, credits to JC, living in some MATRIX or something!
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
blah blah .....
.......Java........Java .......C++ .........Java .........Sun.........Java.........Perl, or C++
Not at all, you just hope to show them a better way. It's pretty much the same for most missionaries I would expect.


If a C++ programmer has a job and you give him lecture about Java, he will laugh at you as he is still in the job and Java guys are without job.
But if a C++ guy is without job and he wants job in C++ and at that time if you say that look becasue you know C++ thats why you dont have job. Come I will get you a job but you have to learn Java. I also have a job requirement which need skill of C++ but I wont give you that. I want you to learn Java.
This is BAD.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
[QB]
That's a really bad example, Jason. What if I like my mother a lot? Should I go around my friend's houses and say how great my mother is? Doesn't that imply how not-so-good their mom's are?


This guys will go and even say how great their mother is and how bad the other person mother is.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The US number come from the CDC. Indian numbers from here: Verma, V; Das, K B.: Teenage Primigravidae:A Comparative Study.Indian Journal of Public Health. Apr-June 1997. 41(2).p.52-55.
The International Planned Parenthood Federation puts the teenage pregnancy rate for India at 14.7%.


In US how many are married ?
But forget it, I did not want and do not want to compare India with US.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

If a C++ programmer has a job and you give him lecture about Java, he will laugh at you as he is still in the job and Java guys are without job.
But if a C++ guy is without job and he wants job in C++ and at that time if you say that look becasue you know C++ thats why you dont have job. Come I will get you a job but you have to learn Java. I also have a job requirement which need skill of C++ but I wont give you that. I want you to learn Java.
This is BAD.


What is wrong with the Project manager example I gave
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Christianity teaches tolerance for others. At the same time it teaches that the word of Christianity must be spread.


Oops, how could I miss the most important part!
Christianity preaches tolerance, and I do believe that. As you said before, I am not saying that all missionaries functioning anywhere in India are all busy planning some conspiracy or something, but some of them, hmm.. are.. not really doing a good job! Well, they are doing a good job in books, ie meeting their targets of x number of converts a month or what ever, but if you inspect their way of functioning some of them are not great.
I can understand reservations and admission preferences for Christian pupil in my local missionary run school, and I can live with that, let it be intolerance or what ever. But when they say, every student in there, should not only praise Jesus Christ in group prayers, but also should forget other gods, or should not respect other gods, that is when intolerance becomes a social evil, and unfortunately that is also happening.
How do I know? I did my schooling in a missionary run, well-respected school in Kerala, Southern tip of India, which is today a model state to rest of India!! :roll:
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
What is wrong with the Project manager example I gave


In India, its 1:30 am... I am feeling sleepy.
But today,I want end of this boody discussion.
How many times you can avoid and not respond to foolish & twisted arguments.
In US teenage pregnancies might be common, why do you think that all nations in this world should have teenage pregnancies equal to US??
OR lot of other things which for US might be proud but for others it cant be.

This is my sentence, did I compare US with India?
How can I compare India with any country? (Do I have superiroty complex of being Indian.
No I am proud of being Indian )
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

The International Planned Parenthood Federation puts the teenage pregnancy rate for India at 14.7%.


The International Planned Parenthood Federation, Thomas. Now this teenage pregnancy is a cultural thing. Which will change with time when literacy levels improve in India.
I am sure Ravish was asking about so called 'random relationship' related 'teenage pregnancy' which is always considered as a social evil like drugs or smoking.
 
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