Left unsaid

[Andrew Shafer]

I'm appalled at the unbridled bigotry that this event has brought to the surface.
I really don't know what to say.
Hating and killing others is not a core teaching of Islam, anymore than it is a core teaching of Christianity.
The Arabs are not inherently different from you or me.
The fact is we live in an unjust world where people are blinded by their own motivations and limited experiences.
There are populations all over the planet that live in constant fear of bombs and gun fights. To not understand that reality is to live in denial of our own condition.
Genocide is good? I wanted to believe a human being could not think this way. Where does it end? Should we kill people that are only 1/2 Arab? Or my mistake, 1/2 raghead?
Violence begets violence.
We may take our vengence, but does that really accomplish much more than perpetuation of the cycle?
There isn't going to be peace until we have world wide equal rights and justice.

[Andrew Shafer]

Tony, try to see past your anger.
I was born and bred in the USA, with Irish, Welsh, German, Jewish, Greek and Native American ancestory.
I know violence.
I served in the military, I train martial arts 4-8 hours a week.
(Wing Tsun Kung fu if anyone cares) I box and wrestle for fun.
How far do we extend your law of the jungle?
If that is the highest law, then if someone can kick your ass they should come and take your house and car. What are you going to do about it?
How does your law of the jungle relate to the sexes? Does it not legitimize rape?

The USA has given the best example of a peaceful, egregious nation, which is suited for all

This is patently false. The USA has flexed its military muscle on many many soils. Garrisoned soldiers are a show of force and ebryonic war. I'm not qualifying the USA's military activity as good or bad, but recognize it for what it is.
What has happened is bad, very bad. I almost start crying everytime I visualize the plane flying into that tower.
Our world will never be the same. . . but calling people ragheads is not self defense, it is rationalized bigotry.
A very similar argument is used by the white supremists, we must defend our way of life.

[Andrew Shafer]

There are certainly degrees and interpretations of the "Law of the Jungle"
Since you made no response, are we to assume that you condone rape based on Nature's law of the Jungle? (I would hope this to be false, and really assume that you are just consumed with emotions and are unsure of the best way to let them out)
This is not really the best time for a history lesson, but the reason we ended up in world war I was we declared neutrality but continued to deal munitions to the British. We were warned by the Germans to stop or violate our neutrality. When we continued our dealings with the UK, the Germans attacked the transportation of goods.
We had no choice, good one.

At any rate, all rational peoples should love us and if they don't, there's something wrong with them.

And you probably think Muslims are fanatical. . .scary!
This should be a somber time. I believe in retribution but I cannot support lashing out at those who may share similarities with the perpetrators. I don't want to banter about this.
I just find the way some of my fellow Americans are expressing their outrage to be almost as sickening as the events that precipitated the expression.
I wish for nothing but American solidarity and justice.

[Adrian Yan]

What the hell are you talking about? Whether We use our military for good or bad, it doesn't mean killing of the innocent people. They don't differentiate between a soldier and a civilian.
Find them, then crucify them. That's one thing I don't mind my taxes for.

[Anonymous]

Who said rape? OH you did. This is not the time to be thinking with your dick get a clue.
I know, I know you are going to say:
�But we made them attack us so we could rape their women�
Well guess what. I do not want their women. Until you brought it up I never thought of their women. What I want is for us to send back some senseless violence back towards Islam FOR ONCE! It seems the only language they speak and the only language they will understand.

[Andrew Shafer]

I guess it is hopeless then.
You can't all be that brainwashed and clueless. You honestly believe that no innocent life has been lost to the US military.
Is that why we bombed an asprin factory in Sudan. Gotta watch out for those asprin soldiers. (Before you start talking precursor this and that, get the facts, many organic compounds can be used as "precursors" for organic compounds, the fact is that 7 years earlier these organic compounds were found in the soil across the street from this factory. 7 YEARS!!! The bombing was 100% politically expediant--READ: Monica related-- and should be considered nothing but an embarassment.) The 150,000 Japanese that were vaporized were probably all soldiers too, yeah another good one.
Your attitude ensures that the worst is yet to come.
The law of the jungle is the law of animals, I had so much hope that we could do better than that.
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/browne2.html http://www.zmag.org/chomnote.htm
I'm sure the terrorists plans are working out well. It probably goes something like this, the civilians in the US get attacked by fringe fundamentalists muslims, the US gets really pissed an lashes out at innocent muslims in the Middle East and in the US uniting the Islamic world and issuing in WW3. Great plan. . .
All the condolences from the core of my being to those whose families are suffering from this tradgedy. I hope that more innocent blood is not spilled.
Let blood be spilled in true retribution, not in blind blood-lust.

[Angela Poynton]

Tony,
Now come on, while I do understand your anger right now, you know as well as anyone that personal attacks are not allowed here. Voice you opinion by all means but just tone it down a little please.

[John Bateman]

Hmmm...
I posted a long reply to one of Tony's comments here andhow it's gone? I didn't delete it...
What happenned?

[Angela Poynton]

Originally posted by John Bateman:
Hmmm...
I posted a long reply to one of Tony's comments here andhow it's gone? I didn't delete it...
What happenned?

Not guilty! I can't see it either!
[This message has been edited by Angela Poynton (edited September 13, 2001).]

[Christophe Lee]

I think everyone should show some restraint here. Not all Muslims are fanatical, suicidal and killers. Killing innocent Muslims won't solve anything.
Retaliation is imminent, but first we have to find the culprit.
And finally, please PLEASE understand that Arab Americans are not the ones who perpetrated this crime. Direct your anger towards those who murder innocents, not our fellow Americans.
ps: yes, I am an American (if that somehow adds credentials to my post)

[Sahir Shibley]

Actually I dont know if reprisal bombings could be a deterrrent. But I know one thing that will definitely have an impact stop training and funding islamic militants.
[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited September 13, 2001).]

[John Bateman]

Originally posted by Angela Poynton:
Not guilty! I can't see it either!
[This message has been edited by Angela Poynton (edited September 13, 2001).]

Very strange, I admit it an 'animated' rebuttal against a comment in an earlier post, but, I do not beleive I used any strong or offending language.
I even read it after I posted it.
I hope it's not gone just because someone didn't like what I said.
Do you guys keep records of post deletes?
As help in finding it.. it was posted in between Andrew Shafer's post of September 12, 2001 05:37 PM and Tony Alicea's post of posted September 12, 2001 09:12 PM
Thanks.
[This message has been edited by John Bateman (edited September 13, 2001).]

[Angela Poynton]

Sorry once they're gone, they're gone.
I know I didn't delete it, and nothing has been mentioned in Moderators Only.

[Mapraputa Is]

I think this thread also lost some posts: http://www.javaranch.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/000998.html

[Andy Ceponis]

Originally posted by Christophe Lee:
I think everyone should show some restraint here. Not all Muslims are fanatical, suicidal and killers. Killing innocent Muslims won't solve anything.

I totally agree. We cant just go around killing anyone who is of a certain race just because they look like some of the people we are after. But i am TOTALLY for us bombing the enemey and if it happens that there are innocent people in the way then so be it. We lost ALL innocent people, so they can lose some sa well. For example those people who were cheering...i wouldnt mind at all if one of our fighter jets "accidently" dropped some bombs on those crowds and blew them to pieces. "accidents" do happen ya know.

[Patrick Krook]

The law of the jungle you speak of is not the Law me and my family abides by. Our destruction here and after would be ensured if that is the law we obeyed. I reject it outright as much as I reject the works of the terrorists we suffered on Tuesday. Those who hate all Arabs and Muslims, even their own countrymen are closer to the terrorists than to the country they say they wish to defend. Spreading such hate finishes the handiwork started by these acts. Satan depends on this hate for his plan to succeed.
As a Christian I must speak out against this and ask others who are to act as well.
To those who know God and are righteous by His Grace and belief in Jesus Christ, put yourself between your fellow countrymen! Reach out and keep safe your Arab and Muslim kinsman who are made so by pledging allegiance to our country, "One Nation Under God."
Seek to calm the hot-blooded consumed by thoughts of revenge. Pray that the Holy Spirit touches their hearts and quells the sinful aggression. Speak this to all people, regardless of whether they listen, heed you, or believe in God.
To those who are outraged, this was an act of Evil, an act of Satan. I do not say this to be trite. IT IS FACT. Do not abide by Satan by becoming his minion, as the terrorist were. Do not entertain anger and hatred. This does not mean this act will stand without consequence.
Those in Christ, it is said to pray for your enemies. What does this mean? I call on you now to pray to God for our enemies that they relent and that those who celebrate their actions abandon their cause and repent. God's wrath grows greater with each act and will consume them utterly. Have faith that this act will not go unpunished, both by the agents of God on Earth and in Eternity. Pray that our nation is guided by the will of God and instilled with righteous anger. If we are blinded by rage and strike out indiscriminately, killing and laying to waste all Arabs, all Palestinians, or all Muslims, we will ensure our own destruction.
To the Arabs and Muslims who have made America your homeland and to those abroad who reject these acts of Satan, I beseech you to be patient. Repay acts of hate with acts of compassion and kindness. A shouting man cannot keep raging against those who will not be unsettled, return only love, and extend a hand of brotherhood. It will be grasped by those who are true in the faith and true to their country.
I cannot say it enough, our character as a Nation; our faith as Christians is on the line. We cannot become what we rail against. We cannot be a party to Satan by striking out on our neighbors. How can we judge them as guilty? They have not acted in a way that we know that they are evil in their heart. God is the only one that knows their hearts and can be the only judge for them. How have they acted? They weep beside us; they pick up rubble with us. Their loss is our loss. Those who celebrate with the Terrorists are our enemies. Does your neighbor celebrate this way? If we choose to hate them by virtue of their race and religion, then you are the terrorist and an enemy to the freedom you enjoy.
Assure those people who have escaped persecution before, who were drawn to our shining shores as our progenitors were. Assure and ensure that the freedom they thirsted for is still here to quench them. Guard it so that others who still hope for it will see it persist and thrives and is available for them as much as it is for your children. Only then will the terrorists be conquered.
Yours in Jesus,
Patrick Krook

[omar khan]

Originally posted by Patrick Krook:
Reach out and keep safe your Arab and Muslim kinsman who are made so by pledging allegiance to our country, "One Nation Under God."
To those who are outraged, this was an act of Evil, an act of Satan.
To the Arabs and Muslims who have made America your homeland and to those abroad who reject these acts of Satan, I beseech you to be patient. Repay acts of hate with acts of compassion and kindness.
Those who celebrate with the Terrorists are our enemies. Does your neighbor celebrate this way? If we choose to hate them by virtue of their race and religion, then you are the terrorist and an enemy to the freedom you enjoy.
Assure those people who have escaped persecution before, who were drawn to our shining shores as our progenitors were.
Yours in Jesus,
Patrick Krook

Dear brother, your words moved me. I hope mankind will find the strenght to fight evil.
Love,
Omar

[Johannes de Jong]

Patrick

[John Bateman]

I just have to say that I am very unimpressed that posts are being deleted from these various forums.
I find that I have a severe lack of motiviation to continue discussions in this kind of environment.

[Andrew Shafer]

I think everyone is still in shock.
Everyone has the right to mourn and cope with this world changing event in whatever way they best suits them.
I ask to be forgiven for any comments that might have come across as inciting. I know I can for give most things that are said in the heat of the moment. Originally, I had hoped to point out that racial slurs were not warranted, necessary or helpful. Would we as a javaranch community tolerate the use of other racial slurs? Nigger, Kyke, Wapp, Chink, Spic on and on, who is that helping?
After the Oklahoma bombing there were outbreaks of anti-arab/anti-muslim violence, who did that help? Why create or perpetuate a cycle of resentment?
When home grown Tim McVeigh was the bomber, I didn't hear anyone calling for the genocidal extermination of blond blue-eyed protestants.
Tony, you can have any opinion about me that you choose, but I guarantee, when the proverbial shit hits the fan, I'll be there for my countrymen.
What you choose to call unAmerican is really the one thing that makes America possible. I can disagree with my governments choices, I can criticize what I see as a bad decision. That is my right and contrary to what you may believe, is the very essence of patriotism. This is central to all that I hold dear about this 200 year old experiment in governance.
What I am against is the sort of random violence, terrorism if you will, that legitimize these attacks. If the USA strikes out against people who are not involved, who are innocent. First, you have become terrorists, then you have done nothing but strengthen the resolve of the terrorists and created the resentment necessary to foment the next generation of terror.
I believe in justice and retribution, but I also believe in restraint and shudder to think that our prejudice and bigotry is so strong and so close to the surface.
Also, a thank you to Patrick, a beacon in the haze.

[Jim Yingst]

We are investigating the deleted post. More soon.
It looks like the other thread Mapraputa was talking about is a false alarm - the only post lost there was an accidental duplicate. Speaking of which, Andrew, is your "Enter" key stuck? Normally I would delete all but one such post, assuming it was just a mistake, but under the circumstances I wanted you to see that all four of your identical posts made it through. Perhaps you should try the "refresh" button next time? Or are we having some technical difficulties with the site?
[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited September 13, 2001).]

[Andrew Shafer]

Sorry guys, I read about deleted posts and started getting trigger happy.
Bless America

[Tony Alicea]

John (Bateman):
IT WAS PROBABLY ME! SORRY!. As I explained to you in private email I had like 4 windows open on newsgroups, JavaRanch, mailing lists!! (The beer probably didn't help the confusion either!)
I must have checked the wrong box.
This explains "The message has been deleted" message that I barely paid attention to while I was busy writing...
Oops!