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What happened in the great United States of America was the saddest and worst of its kind in the history of human civilization. But what USA had done in the past with regards to foriegn policies is also not good. No wonder USA has been cursed time and time again!
The need of this hour is to look at the scenario where our children are going to live. The sort of playground which is being made for our kids to play sorrow fully represents a battlefield filled with blood. The TV screens shows unhappiness and broken buildings. Where is the future? What is the future?
One more point to be noted is the declining spiritualism in USA with divorces going up and no family values whatsoever. It was becoming a place where relationships were taken for granted only to be filled with vast confusion and insecure individuals running amock for "CAREER GROWTH". The woman who forms the pillar of strength and bonding in a family was busy attending meetings, presentations and seminars. The laws of nature had been drastically challenged.
The conclusion to all the above is nothing but to say that "GOD" whom we all forgot and who were just a means for confession against our sins, was watching all this!!! "GOD" is by no means a "confession product". He is the almighty. When we say he is the "almighty", it has meanings far greater than mundane "Career crazy psyche" which is ruiing the whole human race slowly and slowly.
Its high time to find him the lord and to understand the meaning of love!!! Its time to find meaning in relationship, family values!!
Else time and God will not stop for another attack!!!
 
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Mriyank,
Yes, the US foreign policies of the past and probably present have a lot to answer for. Hopefully they'll now think twice before they interfere in another countries internal disputes. But to say they deserve this?? It's the same as saying that a woman who dresses like a tart deserves to be raped. Get real!
Bye the way, we'd be better off if alot more people chose to love one another rather than some "God". And please don't tell me that's what religions teach ... history tells a different tale.
 
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Hear hear, Jane.
If we're to apply this kind of logic to the WTC attack, I suppose we can also infer that "God" makes no distinction among the godless and those who associate with them. The WTC was not destroyed because women want to work. It was not bombed because some of us choose not to worship in some established way. The terrorists who struck these people did not serve God's Will anymore than the U.S. will serve it when it seeks to eradicate this threat.
We're citizens and visitors to the most powerful country in the world. We have enemies, and we were never impervious to their hatred. We have made our choices in the world, and that enemy has said we must die for those choices. What we did not understand, up to Tuesday morning, was the sheer destructive energy those enemies were willing to use to express their hatred. It is and was so completely out of proportion to any current political struggles, than you can virtually count those who approve of this act on your own fingers.
In the religion in which I was brought up, we were taught that God endows us with free will, so that we might choose to find Him of our own volition. We may choose to slaughter in His name. We may choose to love in His name. We may choose indifference in His name. None of that changes who or what God is; it only changes who we are and want to become.
Divine judgement, if you believe in such things, doesn't come in this life. What we see happening now is nothing more than one people's will against others. God may well be watching, but it's sheer arrogance to suggest He is either exulting or grieving over September 11, 2001.
------------------
Michael Ernest, co-author of: The Complete Java 2 Certification Study Guide
 
Jane Griscti
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Hi Sridevi,
Well, I don't want to disillusion you but I'm Canadian, not American (Ooops ... Jim just pointed out you were talking about Michaels post and you are right ... it is a very mature response )
I wasn't thinking about being Canadian when I watched that plane hit the second tower. And I wasn't thinking about it when I saw the buildings collapse. The only thing I was thinking at that point was the fact that I was a human being watching thousands of other human beings die.
To be honest, my first reaction was pure fury at the people who did this and in that moment I would have blown away most of the Middle East because I was sure that's where the attack originated. It is not something I'm proud of. It was a reminder that the worst of human nature lurks in us all. Watching the way New Yorkers have responded to the horror is a reminder that the best of human nature also lurks in each of us.
Perhaps what we should fear is our ability to believe we are always good and right. Then we might struggle against our own innate ability to be terrible. Then maybe, just maybe, we might have a chance at creating a peaceful world.

[This message has been edited by Jane Griscti (edited September 15, 2001).]
 
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Jane said:
...we might have a chance at creating a peaceful world.


You'd have to get rid of all the people first.
Short of that, forget it.
 
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Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
It is and was so completely out of proportion to any current political struggles, than you can virtually count those who approve of this act on your own fingers.


It's probably not "approve/disapprove". Many people (unfortunately) feel something like "it's very sad that people died, but America (as an abstract political concept, or more precisely, its politics) deserves it". These wild acts are an ultimate expression of a negative attitude toward the USA, which exists in millions of people in much less extreme forms.
We're citizens and visitors to the most powerful country in the world. We have enemies, and we were never impervious to their hatred. We have made our choices in the world, and that enemy has said we must die for those choices. What we did not understand, up to Tuesday morning, was the sheer destructive energy those enemies were willing to use to express their hatred.
Sorry in advance if I misunderstood your post, but it looks like "black-and-white" picture to me. Your "enemies" probably possess various levels of "hatred", from slight disapproval to an extreme hatred, even withing the same country or religious group. If you will put them all into the same "enemy" category, you will unnecessarily multiply a number of your enemies. Perhaps the most powerful country in the world can afford it, but still... I suspect many of enemies are persuadable and can be potentially turned into friends.
What bothers me is that many people outside the USA see it much worse than it is (or at least looks from inside ). You may say that it is their problem - well, maybe. But I still think it would be a good thing for the USA to work on its image in the rest of the world, so there were less hatred to the USA because of simple misunderstanding, lack of information, or intentional anti-American propaganda.

[This message has been edited by Mapraputa Is (edited September 15, 2001).]
 
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I agree with michael


God may well be watching, but it's sheer arrogance to suggest He is either exulting or grieving over September 11, 2001.


it has long been my belief that god does not get involved in affairs on this earth. while i think it is great that many people believe they can change things through prayer, i myself dont believe this.
 
Mriyank Kishco
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Originally posted by Michael Ernest:

If we're to apply this kind of logic to the WTC attack, I suppose we can also infer that "God" makes no distinction among the godless and those who associate with them. The WTC was not destroyed because women want to work. It was not bombed because some of us choose not to worship in some established way. The terrorists who struck these people did not serve God's Will anymore than the U.S. will serve it when it seeks to eradicate this threat


Reply to Mike :
The term God which I used in no way denoted a religious tail attached to it. The term God is the Law of Nature under whose jurisdiction we all survive. So whenever we go against it there has to be judgement.
What happened in WTC, u take it or not is a direct consequence of challenging nature.Human mind and its ways r more complex than we have imagined.
One needs to understand it at the earliest and learn to use it positively.
Nobody can defy the "Law of Nature"
When I say this, every "breath" we take has got its own rythm, a strange uniqueness which can never be explained by scientific enlightement ever in the world. What is development, space age and information highway, when it cannot save the mass destruction which happened in USA?
This shows that man howsoever he reaches ahead in technological advancement, he is still ignorant when it comes to knowing himself. Only when a human starts knowing himself, makes an exploration into the "vast occean" called life will he find true happiness for himself and his brothers.
Its high time we repect our parents and elders and stand by them in their old age. The greatest service which a man does is the services to his parents to which he is responsible for.
Its not "economical development" which is the need of the hour but to be "economical sustainance" which can at least reduce hunger around the globe.
The younger generations of today has to learn and partake the responsibility of spiritualism. They have got greater responsibility than any one ever in the human history. They have a war to win againts their own shortcomings, their insecurities. Remember all who read this, monetary procurement or development is not at all a remedy to insecure self, but a teeny weeny belief in GOD and a service to humanity.


[This message has been edited by Mriyank Kishco (edited September 16, 2001).]
 
Michael Ernest
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Mriyank -
The only concept of a God that I can reasonably entertain with people I don't know better is based in faith. Your Law of Nature I take as a statement of belief. I don't know of a "non-religious" faith in a higher power. Perhaps you can say more.
Neither do I hold with your expression of a Law of Nature, much less subscribe to it. In yours and Mapraputa's statements I hear the echoes of a justification for the deaths of all these people -- many of whom, by the way, are neither American nor necessarily money-loving -- and for conveying that sentiment, whether yours or someone else's, I hope you both take a deep breath and think about that. I sincerely hope that Life is not so cheap wherever you live that destruction like this could ever seem a normal consequence within your own world views. I would much rather believe that you simply have not grasped the barbarity and the costs of this act.
The position you take falls under a category of belief systems I recognize as fundamentalist. Between this recent post and your first, I've heard samplings of the Old Testament as well. As such, I have no use for it, but I do accept it as your view.
I do like the ideas you express of the search for self-understanding as our real goal in being here. I absolutely reject any idea, whether based in philosophy, religion, spiritualism, or merely politics, that anyone who died in those planes or in the WTC brought this action upon themselves, save for the actual perpetrators.

------------------
Michael Ernest, co-author of: The Complete Java 2 Certification Study Guide
[This message has been edited by Michael Ernest (edited September 16, 2001).]
 
Mapraputa Is
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Michael,
No, there is absolutely no justification for the deaths of these people, they in no way deserve to die. Their relatives and friends absolutely do not deserve to feel enormous pain and the rest of the country doesn't deserve to be doomed to watch this tradegy and be unable to bring back those who died.
When I said that many people feel something like "it's very sad that people died, but America (as an abstract political concept, or more precisely, its politics) deserves it" I referred (to my great grief) to my countrymen. I read in Russian press that according to some poll 2/3 Russian citizens said about last events "it's very sad that people died, but America deserves it". (this numbers were only briefly mentioned, so I do not know how valid they are). I was shocked, because I saw the same you saw in my post - justification for the deaths. From the other side, I know my people and simply cannot believe they think that Americans deserve to die and these terrorist acts were a right thing to do. After all, most people view Islamic terrorism as our enemy #1 also. The same 2/3 populations (actually even more, 74%) said that Russia should fight terrorism; 44% of them said that Russia should join NATO and 30% that it should do it on its own. And these are the same people who were given blood in Moscow...
Then what "America deserves it" really means? For one thing, your nation tend to identify itself with "America" much more than Russians identify themselves with "Russia" - this is our totalitarian past inheritance. It is quite natural for us to hate some country and yet be amicable to its people - the same way we hate our government (for not to say "Russia") and yet like each other. Even communists methodically published ritual curses to "American imperialism" or "American militarism", but never to "Americans". Give the devil his due, communists censorship always stressed that it is capitalism that is the USSR's enemy, not American folk.
There is a lot of disagreement with American foreign policy and "deserves it" was a really bad, ugly, stupid - I do not know what other word to use here, way to give vent to disagreement. Like people are sure that our own government doesn't care a damn what we think, so does "America". So maybe if we say "deserves it" - maybe then they will listen?
There is too much undeserved hostility toward America in the world: Islamic countries, Latin America, even Russia... I believe, a big part of it is due to some kind of misunderstanding or misinformation. It is very emotional time to American people now, and it is very easy to respond to hostility with equal hostility and to alienate those countries and this is what I am afraid of.
I am writing all this only because I love this country - North America, (Latino people do not like when the USA is referred to as "America" ) and because I think it deserves neither death to its people nor so many "enemies".
 
Michael Ernest
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Mapraputa, thank you for clarifying your remarks. It was indeed very difficult for me to separate the idea you were trying to express from recent events. I am not a religious person, but I can pray for enlightenment for all of us just the same, that each one of us learns to want and love life, whether it is ours or someone else's.
I hope I now see the comments you referred to as you intended them. They are no different from what one could expect to hear in parts of the U.S. if this had happened in Moscow or Beijing. It would be just as sad to hear, too. Fear and ignorance are a powerful combination with lasting effects.
Peace,
Michael
 
Mapraputa Is
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Thank you, Michael!
It is difficult to understand each other when we are so emotional. From my side, emotions makes me (that may be common to all non-native speakers of English) less capable to express myself clearly. But solution always exists, and plagiarism comes to the rescue This is from "Time":
"The president's formulation of this war as a fight between good and evil is not only too simplistic but potentially injurious to ourselves. There is a large percentage of the planet who think of the U.S. as something other than a beacon of goodness, and more like a source of maleficence.
These are not people who would pilot a plane into a building, but they are people who will see the U.S.'s crusade against terrorism as something less than righteous. If we are truly to defeat terrorism, we must convert those people around the world to the idea that America is indeed a force for good. No one is born a terrorist; they are created and then bred. Only when we eliminate the breeding grounds of terrorism will we defeat it." http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,175059,00.html
Ok, finally I am satisfied with how I put it
 
Randall Twede
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Map,
that is very reassuring to hear. what you said about how russians feel about americans. we feel the same way about the russians. why do we like them but hate their government. at least in the old days. many of us americans hate our own government. but we all support it in time of crisis like this.
it was just reasuring to me to hear that many russians dont hate us american civilians because we have always felt the same way.
 
Michael Ernest
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I even have trouble with "good" and "evil" in this context. I suppose these moral notions are intended to win hearts and minds for what's going to be a long struggle against a very slippery enemy.
Simplistic terms like these are problematic; what about the U.S. is "good"? Lots of things, if you are an ally/friend/citizen/benficiary of what role the U.S. plays in the world. What is "evil" about it? That's simply a change in perspective; emotion may amplify the degree we perceive for that evil, but those perceptions may not last. It's really our sense of security in our long-term interests (Heaven, the safety of our kids, money, power, etc.) that govern our most lasting perceptions.
But to any government and any citizen of any government, a terrorist is an enemy. If they are "freedom fighters" to those who see their own causes furthered through terrorist acts, so be it. But even those people, by and large, have small stomachs for a massive, sustained slaughter of innocents.
Personally, I don't think we need religious or moral justification for this fight; reason against an unreasonable force seems sufficient.
[This message has been edited by Michael Ernest (edited September 17, 2001).]
 
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