This week's book giveaways are in the AI and JavaScript forums.
We're giving away four copies each of GANs in Action and WebAssembly in Action and have the authors on-line!
See this thread and this one for details.
Win a copy of GANs in ActionE this week in the AI forum
or WebAssembly in Action in the JavaScript forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Bear Bibeault
  • Paul Clapham
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Knute Snortum
Sheriffs:
  • Liutauras Vilda
  • Tim Cooke
  • Junilu Lacar
Saloon Keepers:
  • Ron McLeod
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Tim Moores
  • Tim Holloway
  • Carey Brown
Bartenders:
  • Joe Ess
  • salvin francis
  • fred rosenberger

A worthy reading

 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 185
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This is not an attempt to forget the WTC victims. So please no atttacks. I got this in my email from and thought that the article has merits. so read on:
A SUPERPOWER NO MORE
By
Daniel C. Maguire
Professor, Marquette University
When I boarded the Midwest Express plane to Washington D.C. on September 11, 2001 at 8:00 am (Central Time), I had no idea that the definition of power on planet earth would be re- written within the hour. I read the paper, enjoyed a nice breakfast, and felt quite secure. Why not! I was a citizen of the "world's last remaining superpower." This "superpower"
was pouring into its "Defense" budget some thirty million dollars an hour, nine thousand dollars a second to keep me safe. As we neared Washington, the pilot announced that the Washington airport was closed and we would be heading back to Milwaukee. Within minutes he reported that the Airport in Milwaukee was also closed and we were to land at the closest airport, Columbus, Ohio.
Cell phones and television at the Columbus airport told us the news, that our superpower status was a myth. In a superpower, the president would not have to hide out in Louisiana and Nebraska because of "credible evidence" that he could not return to the Capital; the congress would not be running from the Capitol Building; schools and businesses
throughout a superpower could not be forced shut; I would not suddenly be looking up into a sky where no airplane could dare fly. These were the facts of this new world order. The Defense Department could not defend us--or its main temple, the Pentagon-- from a hatred and a mode of power that we had never before known.
It was not Pearl Harbor revisited. The bombers had left no return address. The instinct to retaliate with bombing is an anachronism. Fewer than twenty men had brought us to our national knees and raised the biggest question facing us in the twenty-first century, posed by a little girl and reported in the press: "why are they killing themselves and killing all those people?"
THE GUILT GAP
The governments answer was that we are good and love freedom and these people are bad and hate it. That vapid answer came from an arrogant national culture that has lost its talent for healthy guilt. The hatred that could so easily paralyze our nation has a history, and as Teilhard de Chardin said, "nothing is intelligible outside of its history."
Why do the deprived of the world hate us so?
To give an honest answer to the little girl's question, to start some meaningful reflection and move out of the morass of American jingoism, I look to some thoughtful witnesses and diagnosticians of humankind. The first is J. Glenn Gray, an intelligence officer with the army in World War Two. In his book The Warriors, Gray wrote: "If guilt is not experienced deeply enough to cut into us, our future may well be lost."
Next, Robert Heilbroner, the political economist, who peeked behind the veils of our self- image and concluded: "There is a barbarism hidden beneath the superficial amenities of life." Close to Heilbroner is Abraham Heschel, the Jewish theologian. He cited "the secret obscenity, the unnoticed malignancy of established patterns of indifference."
Gerd Theissen the biblical scholar joins the chorus. He noted the century long quest for "the missing link' between apes and "true humanity." Call off the search, he said. The missing link is us. True humanity could not do what we have done to one another and to this generous host of an earth.
Frances Moor Lappe is our next witness: "Historically people have tried to deny their own culpability for mass human suffering by assigning responsibility to external forces beyond their control."
And next I dare turn to words I wrote in 1993: "The absence of pity is the root of all evil." I continued: "Can we sit now in our First World comfort at a table with a view of the golf course, and ignore starvation in the Third World and joblessness and homelessness in our cities? The prophets of Israel would answer �no.' In Jeremiah's words, there is no
hiding from the effects of guilt and morally malignant neglect: �Do you think that you can be exempt? No, you cannot be exempt.' (Jer. 25) Injustice will come home to roost, whether in wars of redistibution (the most likely military threat of the future), or in crime and terrorism, or in far-reaching economic shock waves. The planet will not forever endure our insults. If the prophets' law is correct--and the facts of history
endorse it--we will not be exempt."
And finally, Count Cavour of Italy said that if we did for ourselves what we allow our country to do in our name, we would be jailed and hung as scoundrels.
These were not the voices heard in The National Cathedral on September 14. Jeremiah was not invited to say to the leaders of "the most powerful nation in the world:" "Acknowedge your guilt!" (Jer. 3:12)
OUR GUILT AND THIS STUNNING HATRED
Affluence and comfort dull the optic nerve. The poor world sees us differently. Draw a circle and cut me out of it and I will see sharply what goes on there. The attackers pinpointed the reasons for their outrage. They struck at what they saw as the twin towers of our indifference and at our haughty military heart. They see our nation as an arrogant, spoiled five hundred pound gorilla that pollutes and then
scorns treaties to end pollution, that was built on slavery and
practices racism and yet shuns the United Nations conference on racism in Durban, South Africa. They noticed that the genocide of black people in Rwanda did not stir us to action. They believe we would have acted differently if Swedes or Irish were having their throats cut. Those outside the affluent circle are stunned at our ability to lock into caricatures of others. We don't say that Timothy McVeigh represents Irish Catholics
but the Taliban and Bin Laden somehow symbolize Islam. When they see us getting ready to repeat the Soviet madness in Afghanistan, a writer from that land agrees that Bin Laden is properly compared to Adolph Hitler and the Taliban are well compared to Nazis, but the people of Afghanistan,
with a huge proportion of widowed women are best compared to the Jews in concentration camps. They would love to be free of that tyranny. Those outside our world hate us for ignoring this and threatening slaughter, to be masked as "collateral damage."
Very relevant to September 11, many Muslims see us as incapable of an even-handed policy in the Middle East, a policy that would defend with equal vigor and equal financial aid, the existence of a safe and secure Israeli state and an equally safe and secure Palestinian state, each with territorial integrity. There is no other solution, but those who hate us see that our leaders do not know that.
The Muslim world has a nation-transcending unity that we little understand. The UMMAH, the community of believing Muslims melts borders between races and nations. That is why so many African Americans were drawn to Islam. All Muslims feel the pain of the reported half million innocent children dead in Iraq due to our sanctions. I see it as the surest principle in all of ethics that what is good for kids is good and what is bad for kids is ungodly." They grieve over those children--sacrificed to what end?-- as we grieve over our dead in New
York and Washington. They marvel at our ability to kill as many as a quarter million young Iraqi soldiers in the Gulf War--young people like the students I teach at Marquette University--while leaving our announced target in control. (Surely "the mob" would have been more kind and effective. If Saddam were the problem, they would have "whacked" him rather than slaughtering his children.)
Our hubris shines through our imperfectly disguised attitudes toward Islam, attitudes that befoul our policies in the Middle East. It is asked: "How can we deal with these people?" As professor Huston Smith wrote: "During Europe's Dark Ages, Muslim philosophers and scientists kept the lamp of learning bright, ready to spark the Western mind when
it roused from its long sleep." Muslims like Avicenna taught medicine to the backward Europeans. Arab states like Jordan and Egypt have shown the possibility of peaceful progress in the Middle East. These are not savages who can be calmed only by occupation. The solution is much simpler and it is found in the prophets of Israel. As Isaiah saw it, it is only if you plant justice that you will have peace. (Isa. 32) And occupation of another people is not justice.
The problem goes beyond Islam. The poor of the world see an absence of pity in our economic policies. 1.3 billion are in absolute poverty, 70% of those being women. And poverty kills. 40 million people die yearly from hunger and hunger-related causes. This is like 320 jumbo jets planes crashing every day with half the passengers being children, as Clive
Ponting points out in his monumental book A Green History of the World. The poor of the world are not dumb. They notice, as the United Nations points out, that 82.7 percent of the world's income goes to the top 20 percent, leaving 17.3 percent for the rest of humanity. The poor notice that this does not engage U.S. politics or economics. We are the biggest actor on the world scene at the moment and they note a cold absence of
pity, and they hate us for all of this.
SOLUTIONS
George Kennan once compared large nations to dinosaurs with brains the size of a pea. When struck they thrash out, destroying much and helping little. The Bush administration seems intent in living out this image. Bombing the victims of the Taliban will do not more good than bombing the children of Iraq who had been forced into the army. Building a new
Maginot line of missile defense is tragically comedic. Tightening up security at the airlines as we should have done years ago is as late as it is inadequate. (Biological, chemical, and small atomic weapons are probably already in preparation.) All these are efforts to plug the spigot.
What is needed is to turn off the faucet. The faucet is perceived injustice in the Middle East, the need for separate states for Israel and for the Palestinians. The faucet is the disastrous maldistribution of wealth in the world and the proliferation of starvation.
Solving this maldistribution is not beyond our fiscal reach though it seems to be beyond our moral grasp. James Tobin, the Nobel prize-winning economist, suggested a 0.5 percent tax on all spot transactions in foreign exchange, including futures contracts and options.
As economist David Kortin says: "The 0.5 percent Tobin tax on foreign exchange transactions would help dampen speculative international financial movements but would be too small to deter commodity trade or serious international investment commitments." The money could be used to retire those debts of poor countries that cannot be easily forgiven and it
could finance the efforts of the United Nations and other agencies and non-governmental organizations to bring education, soil conservation, water-purification, micro-loans for cottage industries, familyplanning, and improved communications throughout the world.
The Religions of the world need to rise to the occasion as they have not done so far. Religion is a powerful motivator. John Henry Cardinal Newman said that people will die for a dogma who will not stir for a conclusion. Nothing so stirs the will as the tincture of the sacred.
Religions so far in this exploding crisis have mainly fulfilled their Prozak function of soothing the pain. This is good and all religions are into the purveying of comfort and hope. But the challenge of prophetic religion in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and increasingly in "engaged" Buddhism and Hinduism is to "speak truth to power." to "conscientize" power, and to discomfort power. This they have not done.
We can pretend that we are purely innocent and that the hatred of us is "unfathomable." But the fact remains that the solution to the problems of poor, enslaved, or occupied people is not nuclear physics. All that is needed is the
moral and political will. The poetic author of Deuteronomy put this exasperated plea into the mouth of God. "I have set before you life and I have set before you death, and I have begged you to choose life for the sake of your children." We can't seem to do it. The hope now is that with our military power embarrassed and our vulnerability terrifyingly clear, fear might be the penumbra of wisdom.
Daniel C. Maguire
 
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This is what happens when liberal college professors write articles about things they really don't understand. We are hated by Osama bin Laden and his cohorts not because we are wealthier than they are (bin laden is a multi-millionaire) but because we are infidels who fail to practice his brand of Islam. He states, "But the fact remains that the solution to the problems of poor, enslaved, or occupied people is not nuclear physics. All that is needed is the moral and political will." The moral and political will to do what? Afghanistan has had several rulers over the last 50 years that have tried to modernize the country and all have been forced out. These people don't want our money. They don't want our lifestyle. They don't even want our help. They want us to die!!!
 
"The Hood"
Posts: 8521
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Actually they want us to become fundamental Islams under their authority.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 81
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
He wants 'US' to die???
Actually his demand is for US troops to leave his homeland in the Saudi Arabian peninsula. He incorrectly thinks because they were able to push the Soviet army out of Afghanistan, they can do the same in Saudi Arabia.
He believes the American troops are occupying his homeland. Remember the Americans actually helped him and called him a freedom fighter when he was involved in pushing the Russian army out.
 
zulfiqar raza
Ranch Hand
Posts: 81
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Cindy, no he does not want you to become 'fundamental islam'. Because for that you will need to have a lot of 'funds' and you also have to be 'mental'. But people here don't have the 'funds' and are neither 'mental'.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 782
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That guy is either smoking WAY TOO MUCH CRACK, or NOT ENOUGH CRACK.
Just because hes a teacher doesnt mean he knows what hes talking about. Stoopid people are multiplying.
 
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Posts: 8521
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by zulfiqar raza:
Cindy, no he does not want you to become 'fundamental islam'.


OK, So he just wants us to become Islams under his authority. That is what Holy Wars are about.
 
zulfiqar raza
Ranch Hand
Posts: 81
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Sigh, did you read my post regarding his demands or American troops leaving his homeland in the Arabian peninsula??
In spite of the what the media would have you believe, no one has declared a "Holy War". There is no word such as "Holy War" in the Islamic vocabulary. "Jihad" translated means 'to Strive, to Struggle'.
What the idiot Taliban have said is that "if they are attacked they will declare Jihad". Which means if they are attacked by America they will STRIVE to fight back.

 
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This man has got to be a communist. The redistribution of wealth in order to empower the those who "have not" at the expense of those who "have" is basic to the communist ideaology.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 142
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I believe you are all exhibiting the exact behavior mentioned in the article: lack of guilt.
I believe the article does a great job of explaining the ideology behind the attack. I don't think there is a singular reason for an attack of this magnitude (eg. bin Laden is mad at our occupation Saudi Arabia). But rather, a build up of many reasons and the article provides good insight to those reasons.
Of course, I still do not agree with the attacks, but I understand better.
Keep an open mind.
 
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Posts: 8521
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by zulfiqar raza:
What the idiot Taliban have said is that "if they are attacked they will declare Jihad". Which means if they are attacked by America they will STRIVE to fight back.


Well I quess that is what America is doing. They were attacked and they are striving to fight back.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Christophe Lee:
I believe you are all exhibiting the exact behavior mentioned in the article: lack of guilt.
I believe the article does a great job of explaining the ideology behind the attack. I don't think there is a singular reason for an attack of this magnitude (eg. bin Laden is mad at our occupation Saudi Arabia). But rather, a build up of many reasons and the article provides good insight to those reasons.
Of course, I still do not agree with the attacks, but I understand better.
Keep an open mind.


Bin Laden felt betrayed by the US for failure to continue support of the Mujahadin after the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan. Bin Laden is upset with what he considers an occupation of the Holy Land, despite the fact that we were invited there by the Saudi government. He is incensed that the Saudi government turned to the West for protection from Iraq. His rage was further fueled by the humiliation of being stripped of his Saudi citizenship and his familiy publicly disowning him. He chooses to see any American or Western involvement in a Muslim country, such as our aid to the famine victims in Somalia, as an attack on Islam. He is angry at our support of the Israelis, and holds us responsible for their conflict with the Palestineans.

What is there to keep an open mind about?
 
zulfiqar raza
Ranch Hand
Posts: 81
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Do you a think a democratic government chosen by the people of that region had invited the American troops?? or ?
 
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Posts: 8521
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Of what country at what time.
Yes, we were invited in by Saudi Arabia. Get over it.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by zulfiqar raza:
Do you a think a democratic government chosen by the people of that region had invited the American troops?? or ?


Umm... there are no democratic governments chosen by the people in that region, except Israel of course. You should surely know that. But we were invited in by the legitimately recognized government. And by the way to all who resent us being there in the first place, you are welcome for having protected Saudi from the Iraqis.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited September 20, 2001).]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 183
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Umm... there are no democratic governments chosen by the people in that region, except Israel of course.


What about Lebanon and Turkey?
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by OMAR KHAN:

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
[b] Umm... there are no democratic governments chosen by the people in that region, except Israel of course.


What about Lebanon and Turkey?
[/B]


Tell you the truth I am ignorant as to what Lebanon's current government is or how it came to power. And for some reason I don't think of Turkey as part of the "Middle East", but I guess that point is debateable.
 
zulfiqar raza
Ranch Hand
Posts: 81
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Turkey's "democracy" is firmy in control of its Army. The Army has a large part in what the politicians can do or say.
Lebanon after living through 14 years of Israeli occupation and devastating civil war is stabalizing, however the Syrian Army is present there and very firmly in control of major institutions.
Israel, yes. If you don't consider the fact that its creation was forced upon the Palestinians through a UN mandate. A mandate dictated by Western Coloniast powers to give 50% of the land to less than 5% population which was jewish.
 
Bartender
Posts: 4121
IntelliJ IDE Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Unfortunately(?), there was alot I agreed with in that article... which is why I have refrained from posting in most of the threads dealing with the attack... I feel sickened by the act, yet wary of the responses that will be made to it. I have not felt comfortable posting my feelings about this in fear that I would belittle the feelings of those who were affected more directly by these events, or that I would get 'Commie Traitor Scum' comments emailed to me, which I have no time to deal with right now.

I don't think the above article describes Osama bin Laden's personal motivations, but I think it describes the motivations of the people who follow him. I think that these problems are what allows those like bin Laden to convince people to commit the terrible acts witnessed recently. I in no way mean to imply that these problems justify those terrible acts.

Over the last week I have gone through several emotions over this event. First, I felt anger and outrage at the perpetrators of this terrible act. Second, I felt saddened over the immense loss of life and the state of the world. Now I just feel wary...

Since the beginning, this act was described as an 'act of war'... but a war with whom or what? A war with Afghanistan? Why? 99% of Afghans didn't have anything to do with the terrorism. Why hurt more innocent people? A war on Terrorism? Unfortunately, wars against concepts are not as easily won as wars against entities... Lessee, there was the war on communism( Cold War ), and the war on drugs... neither of which very successful because they were a physical response to a non-physical concept. Concepts are not localized, so physical fighting doesn't do much good... I fear that a war on terrorism won't do too much good either. A war against Osama bin Laden? I think that this is the most justified 'war' that can be fought, as it has a clear objective, and the focus of the war is the actaul guilty party. However, how is it a war against this one man, or even against just his organization? If we kill Osama bin Laden another person will step into his place. If we destroy his organization, another organization will form with the same goals, and possibly the same lack of restraint in taking innocent lives. There seems to be no clear solution... just more and more questions...

-Nate
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Nathan Pruett:
Lessee, there was the war on communism( Cold War ), and the war on drugs... neither of which very successful because they were a physical response to a non-physical concept.

Ummm, I think we won the war on Communism. At least I don't notice the USSR around anywhere.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by zulfiqar raza:
Israel, yes. If you don't consider the fact that its creation was forced upon the Palestinians through a UN mandate. A mandate dictated by Western Coloniast powers to give 50% of the land to less than 5% population which was jewish.


Actually that statement appears to be inaccurate. There was no Palestine until after WWI when a portion of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey) was mandated under British control. This area was called Palestine. It consisted of what is today Jordan, Israel, and the West Bank. The British looked favorably on a Jewish claim of the land and considered making the entire area under their control a Jewish homeland.
In 1923 the British divided Palestine into two administrative districts, calling the eastern district Trans-Jordan (across he Jordan) and the western district kept the name Palestine. Trans-Jordan made up 75% of what was Palestine.
The history is actually quite interesting and there is much more to it, but what I wanted to point out was one thing. Most of the Palestineans living in the Middle East live in Jordan today, and not in good conditions. Jordan was most of what was Palestine. Yet the Palestineans make no claims against the Arab state of Jordan. Kind of makes me think what the real issue boils down to a simple historic Arab hatred of the Jews.
There is a really interesting summary of the region's history at http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html . Granted there is a strong pro-Israeli slant, but it is still easy enough to weed out the facts from the biases.
 
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Ummm, I think we won the war on Communism. At least I don't notice the USSR around anywhere.


Thomas! Look around! We are HERE!

[This message has been edited by Mapraputa Is (edited September 20, 2001).]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by :
This forum sucks
There are commies, fundamentalists, fanatics, white-supremacists and other weirdos.
I will fly back to pigfistan.
Byeeeee


 
Nathan Pruett
Bartender
Posts: 4121
IntelliJ IDE Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


Ummm, I think we won the war on Communism. At least I don't notice the USSR around anywhere



The USSR and most other communist countries did fall, but their fall wasn't due to the American military... it failed due to internal corruption and the desire of the citizens of those countries to change their government. There are still communist countries out there, though the only ones that could still be considered any serious threat to the US are China ( due to size ), and Cuba( due to proximity ( though not really a serious threat... ) ). Now that the few communist countries are not openly hostile to America, communism is not seen as the 'Red Threat' it once was.

-Nate
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Nathan Pruett:
The USSR and most other communist countries did fall, but their fall wasn't due to the American military... it failed due to internal corruption and the desire of the citizens of those countries to change their government. There are still communist countries out there, though the only ones that could still be considered any serious threat to the US are China ( due to size ), and Cuba( due to proximity ( though not really a serious threat... ) ). Now that the few communist countries are not openly hostile to America, communism is not seen as the 'Red Threat' it once was. -Nate

I have to admit that I don't understand your point anymore. Are you saying that we didn't win the war against communism because we didn't use our military? The reason, of course, that the "red threat" was seen as a threat was because of the proximity of the USSR and her allies to western Europe. China doesn't have an expansionist history as Russia did so the threat is seen as less of a threat.
 
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Nathan Pruett:
The USSR and most other communist countries did fall, but their fall wasn't due to the American military... [/B]


You don't give us enough credit. One of many reason leading to the fall of the Soviet Empire was the US military and our NATO allies. Our militaries were able to deter the Soviet army from advancing across Europe. We kept peace through strength for 50 years. Our military was strong enough so that they had to make great expenditures in order to keep up with us, as did we. The difference is we were able to sustain this strong military where their's was not economically sustainable.
Plus I have a nice certificate from the US government commemorating our victory in the cold war, so it must be true.
 
zulfiqar raza
Ranch Hand
Posts: 81
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

This victory over Communism was also fought on the highlands of Afghanistan. When the Russian Army invaded , the Americans made sure Afghanistan was a "bear trap" for them. A revenge for Vietnam. They supplied the Afghans with weaponary and training. They bled the Soviet Army in Afghanistan and bankrupted their economy through a 10 year war effort in Afghanistan. A bankrupt Soviet state collapsed and the US had its revenge.
America did not feel much in this revenge and "Cold War", but for those in Afghanistan? Over a Million died, over 2 Million crippled, over 6 million refugees in Pakistan and Iran and a country left in ruins. When Americans pulled out the insitutions in Afghanistan were non-existant and stability in Pakistan collapsed. Guns and drugs (left over from the American involvment) flooded Pakistan.
There was no "Marshall Plan" for that region, US just pulled out. It was not Japan or Europe.
 
Cindy Glass
"The Hood"
Posts: 8521
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So you think that the US should have ignored the Russian presence in Afghanistan, and just let them take over? Would have shortened the conflict alot - therefore alot less loss of life. And you wouldn't have so much to complain about.
However, seems the folks in Afghanistan didn't feel that way or they would not have kept fighting.
 
Nathan Pruett
Bartender
Posts: 4121
IntelliJ IDE Spring Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


Are you saying that we didn't win the war against communism because we didn't use our military?



No... I meant that when America involved military actions they did not turn out well. I think that this was because there was no other reason to fight than to fight communism( i.e. America hadn't been attacked... ). Weren't Vietnam & Korea fought for this reason? In the new war on terrorism, America has been attacked... but in this case I that we could easily re-direct out 'rightous anger' from simply the terrorists who committed this act onto all Afghans...

A large war is going to hurt many other people in addition to the terrorists...

-Nate
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Nathan Pruett:
No... I meant that when America involved military actions they did not turn out well. I think that this was because there was no other reason to fight than to fight communism( i.e. America hadn't been attacked... ). Weren't Vietnam & Korea fought for this reason?

Korea was fought because North Korean forces attacked South Korea including American troops stationed there.
 
Of course, I found a very beautiful couch. Definitely. And this tiny ad:
Java file APIs (DOC, XLS, PDF, and many more)
https://products.aspose.com/total/java
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!