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Thoughts on how this will go

 
mister krabs
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After watching the speech and listening to the pundits, it seems that there are 4 basic possibilities:
1) The Taliban do everything we ask. They destroy the camps and hand over the terrorists to us.
2) The Taliban stand aside and we destroy the camps and kill or capture the terrorists
3) The Taliban fight us and get destroyed, we destroy the camps and kill or capture the terrorists
4) The Taliban are overthrown in a coup and the new goverment of Afghanistan turns over the terrorists and destroys the camps.
 
"The Hood"
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I don't believe that the Taliban can permit infidels (that would be us) to enter their territory under their interpretation of the Koran.
That is one of bin Ladens big upsets about the US contaminating Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm.
It sort of limits the possibilities.
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Cindy Glass:
I don't believe that the Taliban can permit infidels (that would be us) to enter their territory under their interpretation of the Koran.

They do allow infidels in their country. Reporters and aid workers have been permitted. The real question is can they allow a Moslem to be handed over to non-Moslem justice? The clerics have said no so far but some pressure could easily change their minds.
 
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1) never gonna happen
2) possible
3) more possible
4) not without our help and a little of # 3
i think the Taliban's beliefs and pride will prevent them from simply handing bin Laden over to us... so, i think we will send several covert operations into Afghanistan in an attempt to capture (or kill) bin Laden.
actually, i would not be surprised if covert operations are already happening... what makes me mad is that we will not hear about them. i wish i was still in the Navy so i would know what is going on over there!
 
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Based on the Taliban response Give us proof looks as if it will (3) or (4)
 
Greg Harris
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The real question is can they allow a Moslem to be handed over to non-Moslem justice? The clerics have said no so far but some pressure could easily change their minds.


when the Taliban sent a reply to President Bush's demand for them to hand over bin Laden last night the representative said, "No" but the interpreter said "No, not without evidence..." maybe the interpreter was letting out more information than the representative wanted?
i do not want to read into that comment too much, but it does sound like the Taliban is softening up on the issue.
 
Thomas Paul
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Of course, we aren't after just bin laden now. That door has closed. The Taliban are going to have to rollover and give us everything.
 
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I really don't understand why are you guys focusing on one single person and only on Taliban? Taliban itself is not the problem but the whole radical muslim ideology is. It is very spread-out. Do you fight groups of individuals, who are dispersed all over the world, with aircraft carriers and bombers?
 
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Originally posted by Greg Harris:
what makes me mad is that we will not hear about them. i wish i was still in the Navy so i would know what is going on over there!



Thats why im campaigning to have every ship/person involved in the war wear a helmet cam. I wanna see the destruction first hand!
 
Greg Harris
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good idea, Andy! can you imagine the images sent from a Navy SEAL's helmet cam? that would have to be broadcast on cable... just after the Sopranos.
 
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Jake the Snake: The problem is really the Western Imperialist ideology of :
1. Colonialism
2. Racism
3. Manipulation through IMF and World Bank of 3rd world countries
Once this is solved. No more problems. Like Michael Jackson said in his song 'Man in the Mirror' , if you wana make a change first change yourself.
Noam
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Jake the Snake:
I really don't understand why are you guys focusing on one single person and only on Taliban? Taliban itself is not the problem but the whole radical muslim ideology is. It is very spread-out. Do you fight groups of individuals, who are dispersed all over the world, with aircraft carriers and bombers?


Neither do I.
This is my theory:
Terrorist (or any evil, theives, dacoits, whatever) are the waste generated by the system of civilization.
Every living thing generates waste. We simply cannot get rid of it. Only thing we can do is to contain it and treat it. What is drainage system of a city? It's a waste management system for people.
Killing Osama is like spraying perfume over the waste. It can only give temporary relief from the stink but cannot solve the problem. You need a multi-pronged strategy to manage the waste.
In thermodynamics, you must have read that any engine can be 100% efficient only if it's sinks temprature is 0 (Zero) K ( eff = 1 - Tempr. of Sink/Tempr of Source). And so no engine in the world can be 100% efficient. But you can improve the efficiency to some extent. I am trying to apply the same logic to the system of civilization. There cannot be a civilization where there is no evil. Evil cannot be zero. If civilization is there the evil has to be there.
So the point, is instead of trying to elimitate evil (Osama) develop drainage system to manage evil. You'll kill one Osama today. What will you gain. That guy has kidney truoble and is on dialisys. I don't think killing him will make US safe. It's his ideas that you should kill.
Terrorism is not about just one person pacing bombs etc. It's a mind game. It can only be contained by brain power and not by muscle power.
I believe, attack on Afghanistan or any country harbouring terrosists like Pakistan cannot solve the problem. I don;t know the solution but I believe that intelligent people need to brainstorm and figure out a smart way to handle this evil of terrorism.
Untill we do that, I am afraid, we'll see more WTC...not just in USA but everywhere in the world.
Just think about it, how long can you control the stench by spraying perfume on the shit?
Do having jails, electric chairs etc. remove murderers? No. They are a way to manage them so that they do not go out of control.

NOTE: People who want to bang Afghanistan.....PLEASE DON'T FLAME ME. These are my views just like you have your views to bomb it. I am just saying that this bombing strategy won't work.
 
Jake the Snake
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Noam, don't let my name decieve you! It just sounded funny so I have chosen it.
I am originally from Europe and know exactly what are you talking about. There is a great unbalance in the world and that is why this is happening. I won't go deeper into the whole subject because I am sure I will be flamed by large number of (ignorant) people here. There is a great anti-American sentiment throughout the world and that is for a valid reason.
 
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I have a feeling they will hand him over.
Hopefully their brains with overpower their hearts.
 
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This is possibly the sickest comment I've ever read.

Originally posted by Andy Ceponis:

Thats why im campaigning to have every ship/person involved in the war wear a helmet cam. I wanna see the destruction first hand!


 
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Prof Chomsky! What a great honor it is for us mere mortals to have you here. Welcome to JavaRanch
You know, I never did really understand your models of natural languages, which we call, ofcourse 'The Chomsky Hierarchy'. I mean, how on earth can you prove that it is undecidable whether a given context-sensitive language is empty?! Do you have any insight on that? Thanks!
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Jake the Snake:
I won't go deeper into the whole subject because I am sure I will be flamed by large number of (ignorant) people here.


Welcome to the world of "free" democracy. Where ignorant masses are easily manipulated through mass media. Whereas dictators have their secret police to keep the masses in check, democratic governments have the mass media to manipulate public opinion and manufacture consent. Not too much different from George Orwell's 1984.
Noam
 
Nanhesru Ningyake
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>George Orwell's 1984
I remember a scene from this book, Prof Chomsky. It's where the couple go over to this remote island/beach to make love, because inside the city all places were monitored by the Big Brother. Don't you think that's pretty romantic? Sneaking out in the dark, whispering sweet nothings, nibbling each other's ears...
 
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I'm actually betting on options 5 or 6
5) the US army, despite their strength and technology, get caught in a no-win endless war not unlike Vietnam and end up looking really silly.
6) The US ends up commiting atrocities against the Afgan ppl and are brought to heel by a backlash from the rest of the world.
There is no clean or clear solution.
Here is my worst case scenario:
7) Due to the actions of the US while seeking pay back for the terrorist bombings, the organisations peforming terrorist actions get greater support and larger recruiting possibilities. What are you going to do America, make Muslims wear a star so they can be easily identified just in case they are carrying a bomb?
So maybe I'm arguing too far in the ooposite direction, but hopefully we find a middle ground.
Seek justice, not vengence.
[This message has been edited by David O'Meara (edited September 24, 2001).]
 
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So far I really haven't heard an intelligent well thought-out comment on this whole list. Allow me to make a few points:
1. The Taliban don't get rid of bin Laden because he is there base of power. He provides them with a fanatical strong arm that allows them to crush their opposition. Without him they might lose their superiority over their internal enemies.
2. They fought off the USSR before and they are hoping that they can raise enough of an army that it won't be worth it for us to move in there and dig them out of the holes in the mountains. They might even be delusional enough to believe they can fight us off. We have military advantages that the Soviet Union did not, so that will not be the case.
3. If we go in there and destroy large parts of Afgan and capture all the terrorists but leave the Taliban in power, they will have succeeded in their objective.
4. This is not a Muslim/non-muslim thing, it is a power thing.
5. They didn't kill 6500 innocent people because of Western Theology, don't be silly!
6. The inbalance of power in the world is not the fault of the U.S. Jake, you won't be flamed as a fault of "ignorant" people, the fault will be your own ignorance. If you are going to make a ridiculous claim, at least have the backbone to support it.
7. Noam, you are correct that our free democracy allows the media to manipulate us. The difference is in our free society, I have the freedom to find other sources of information, make my own decisions, and discuss them with others. In countries such as Iraq, China, Afgan, etc. A few people control the media, and then do not allow people to have other sources of information and they will kill them for discussing with others. In this country we have the freedom to get in large groups and talk about whatever we want. We also have the freedom to arm ourselves. We are actually compelled to change our leaders every few years. Your comparison between dictatorships and democracy is totally naive.
 
Jake the Snake
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Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
So far I really haven't heard an intelligent well thought-out comment on this whole list.


Thanks God that we have you! Finally an intelligent individual showed up in this forum. Aren't we all so fortunate?
If you ever have a chance to get out of this country and see some things for yourself, you will change your opinion. If your opinion is based on what have you been feed by ABC and CNN news and US television in global then noone can educate you. You seem so arrogant, why would we even try?
 
Thomas Paul
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First off any comparison with Vietnam is naive at best. The reason that the US didn't win in Vietnam was because we never tried to win. We never invaded the north. The goal of the Vietnam War was to make the war so painful to the north that they would sit down at the peace table. This eventaully happened but by then the cost of the war on America had grown so high because there seemed to be no point to it that the public no longer supported the war (if they ever did).
The Taliban can not survive without outside support. Eventually they will run out of food, fuel, and ammunition. They have many enemies in Afghanistan who are waiting with bated breath for the opportunity to kick some Taliban butt.
There is one more thing to keep in mind. Osama bin Laden is not a religious leader and anyone who follows the Koran will find nothing worth following in him or the Taliban. He is a leader like Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Charles Manson. His ability to recruit is severely limited by our ability to isolate him. Look at his followers. How many were Afghan peasants? None. His followers were educated non-religious moslems who fell under the sway of a charismatic leader.
 
Bartholemu Smith
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Well Said Thomas
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The Taliban can not survive without outside support. Eventually they will run out of food, fuel, and ammunition. They have many enemies in Afghanistan who are waiting with bated breath for the opportunity to kick some Taliban butt.
There is one more thing to keep in mind. Osama bin Laden is not a religious leader and anyone who follows the Koran will find nothing worth following in him or the Taliban. He is a leader like Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Charles Manson. His ability to recruit is severely limited by our ability to isolate him. Look at his followers. How many were Afghan peasants? None. His followers were educated non-religious moslems who fell under the sway of a charismatic leader.


Thomas
I think we may all be mistaken if we assume this .First off it is childish to assume that cutting off aid from countries will starve these guys. What we need to understand is that there are lots of millionaire individuals who are ready to give up everything to support this movement.
There were reports on CNN that one of the hijackers was given a sume of 250000 (Cash) to buy a house and live comfortably . This was not Bin ladens or the talibans money and came from an individual outside. There are thousands more like him.

However I am not fully satisfied that LAdens followers are all educated .People like mohammed Atta YES and there are more like this.
The fact may be that majority of people which make up the Taliban are not educated .and they are peasants ready to die for a cause which they dont even understand.
Pranav
 
Thomas Paul
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Once Afghanistan is isolated they could have billions in the bank but they can't hop over to the local 7-11 to spend it. Without the ability to smuggle in huge amounts of food and ammunition, the Taliban will crumble.
The Taliban may be allies with Osama bin Laden but that does not mean everyone in the Taliban is ready to strap a bomb to their chest and walk into the Stage Deli. The Taliban may be able to recruit soldiers within Afghanistan but I don't think Osama bin Laden will be able to recruit many suicidal terrorists from the Afghan population.
 
Pranav Jaidka
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Again Thomas
This is a different kind of a war. ....this is not just one country .Its all over the world . And believe me religious fanatics are capable of anything.
The taliban may be crushed .That battle won ....but the war is longer. People like these hijackers did not fight for the Taliban ....nor did they have anything to do with it.
They did not have any previous history or being involved in these activities..(Most of them at least) .So blocking funds would not be possible in this case.
Also if you notice ....there is already a huge part of the islamic world which is gaining anti US sentiments .
A country which is apparently an Ally against terrorism is already in trouble because most of its population is against what the govt says . I think this is an explosive situation .
Also i heard that the FBI has anticipated 11000 agents of 'Islam' all over the world.
It scares the shit out of me ...and i dont want people to underestimate what these people are capable of.

 
Thomas Paul
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You are correct that the Taliban is not Osama bin Laden. But as long as the Taliban shelter him and provide bases for his organization they are the enemy.
 
Steve Holmes
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Hey Jakey Snakey,
"If your opinion is based on what have you been feed by ABC and CNN news and US television in global then noone can educate you. You seem so arrogant, why would we even try?"
-You are obviously too afraid to try and back up any point you make on this board so I won't ask you to try. Actually I prefer internet news, and I try to get as much of my news from different sources as possible. I'll be the first to admit that CNN and ABC is slanted, or for that matter that all news agencies are slanted. Luckily in the US, we can chose any source we want if it is published on the internet.
"I won't go deeper into the whole subject because I am sure I will be flamed by large number of (ignorant) people here. There is a great anti-American sentiment throughout the world and that is for a valid reason."
You still don't have the backbone to support your argument. I never said that people on this list are stupid or ignorant, I imagine most are intelligent and well-informed, that is how we differ. My comment was directed at you and your pal Noam Chomsky.
You are clearly too afraid to stick your neck out here and attempt to support your ridiculous positions.
Just so as not to upset anyone with generalizations, I've known quite a few Europeans and none of them were egotistical cowards like our friend Jake.
 
Jake the Snake
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Steve,
Remember that I was reluctant to express my opinions in a first place exactly because there are a lot of individuals like you out there. I am not "affraid" but I know that I can never educate narrow-minded provincial individual like you.
Should I try? Don't be silly.
Obviously you are trying to provoke me but it is a very poor atempt.
And if it is going to make you feel any better, sure I am an egotistical coward and you are a great American patriot.
Have you ever heard of an expression "Politics is for masses"?
Well, let us all hear what else a great mind like yours have to say on this subject?
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Jake the Snake:
Have you ever heard of an expression "Politics is for masses"?

Nope never heard it. I have heard "religion is the opiate of the people."
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Nope never heard it. I have heard "religion is the opiate of the people."


Karl Marx?
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by OMAR KHAN:
Karl Marx?

Yep:
http://www.baylor.edu/~Scott_Moore/texts/Marx_Opium.html
 
Anonymous
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Look at his followers. How many were Afghan peasants? None. His followers were educated non-religious moslems who fell under the sway of a charismatic leader.


However I am not fully satisfied that Ladens followers are all educated .People like mohammed Atta YES and there are more like this.
The fact may be that majority of people which make up the Taliban are not educated .and they are peasants ready to die for a cause which they dont even understand.
Pranav


In my humble opinion, the Secret Evidence Act (which makes people crumble under pressure and confess to whatever the FBI/CIA/etc ask because believe me threats of being deported and jailed in the Middle East would work even on you)
will not allow us to ever find out if the hijackers ever had anything to do with Bin Laden or Jihaad.
Cited: Rights caught in dragnet http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-000077118sep26.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dfrontpage
What bugs me is that so many callers from the airplane and none of them identified the hijackers as Arabs or Muslim - How come no one is questioning it!
If Bin Ladin did it, why is he denying it. According to his twisted beliefs in Jihaad, I would expect him to be advertising it.
If the hijackers were (in their twisted minds) doing Jihaad, why would they be drinking so heavily (which is a taboo in Islam) and why would they meet at the Gambling Capital of U.S. - Las Vegas (gambling is also taboo in Islam)
Some of the hijacker's identities seemed to have been stolen. So do we know they really are Arabs/Muslim.
Muhammad Atta's parents say they got a phone call from him after the tragedy.(src:Yahoo 9/25) FBI/CIA is not denying that yet.
Then there is the question of the following bit:
4000 Israeli Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack
With the announcement of the attacks at the World Trade Center in New York, the international media, particularly the Israeli
one, hurried to take advantage of the incident and started mourning 4000 Israelis who work at the two towers. Then suddenly, no one ever mentioned anything about those
Israelis and later it became clear that they
remarkably did not show up in their jobs the day the incident took place. No one
talked about any Israeli being killed or wounded in the attacks. Arab diplomatic sources revealed to the Jordanian al-Watan newspaper that those Israelis remained absent that day based on hints from the Israeli General Security Apparatus, the Shabak, the fact which evoked unannounced suspicions on American officials who wanted to know how the Israeli government learned about the incident before it occurred, and the reasons why it refrained from informing the U.S authorities of the information it had. Suspicions had increased further after Israeli newspaper Yadiot Ahranot revealed that the Shabak prevented
Israeli premier Ariel Sharon from traveling to New York and particularly to the city�s eastern coast to participate in a festival organized by the Zionist organizations in support of the "Israel". Aharon Bernie, the
commentator at the newspaper, brought up the issue and came up with a negative conclusion, saying �no answer�. He then
asked about the clue behind the Shabak�s position in preventing Sharon�s participation, and again without giving an answer. Bernie added that Sharon, who was delighted for having his speech on top of the festival agenda, asked the head of the
organization to mediate and convince the Shabak to change its position, but his attempts were in vein. The next day after
Sharon�s secretary officially announced that Sharon would not participate. For its part, the Israeli Ha�aretz newspaper revealed that the FBI arrested five Israelis four hours after the attack on the Twin Towers while filming
the smoking skyline from the roof of their
company�s building.
I have only one source to provide link to as the rest of it I read on a yahoo group.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=75266&sw=WTC+Tragedy
I really like to be able to provide sources to all I quote. But this whole bit about the "Secret Evidence Act" has me confused about who is right and who is wrong and how do we really know.
I strongly feel that terrorism is a major problem in the world and it should be eliminated/terminated from the face of this earth. But let's just make sure that we are handing out the justice in a correct manner and to the correct party.
I say this because when the WTC got bombed in 1993 or was it 95, Anyway, there was an article in only one of the local NY newspapers that told about a Mossad Agent having had contacts with the truck driver of the bomb and that agent left the country right after the bombing. Never to be followed of course. At this point I can not get the article from the archives but I have seen it with my own eyes.
I am not into conspiracy theories but A crime such as heinous as this should be investigated very seriously and the right parties should be brought to justice. It should not be a politically based investigation as it has started out to be when Oklahoma Govt building had been bombed. I remember sitting at my desk and hearing about the Iranian student who was caught at the airport and how he had to have done it.
How can we eliminate the fact that whenever a terrorist act gets committed, terrorists of Arabs/Muslim origins come to mind. How do we know some group didn't get away with murder due to this fact.
 
Anonymous
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Changing your user name doesn't fool some zulfigar raza. Your style is still the same. It wasn't OBL, it wasn't muslims at all. The only thing missing was one of your India rants.
 
Anonymous
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4000 Israeli Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack
I don't think it's true.
 
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Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
We also have the freedom to arm ourselves.


You have the RIGHT to "Bear arms" Not to "arm yourself". That's a misconception in your Bill of Rights. (I think it's the Bill of Rights).
Bearing arms was put into the bill to make it possible for the people to overthrow a corrupt government. It's since been misused to mean "I can carry a gun wherever I want". The arms (in colonial days) was for Military Arms, Cannons, Rifles, Machine Guns etc etc, not necessarrily pistols and such.
All comments welcome.
 
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Originally posted by DKL:
[b]4000 Israeli Employees in WTC Absent the Day of the Attack

I don't think it's true.[/B]



It's not.

-Nate
 
Thomas Paul
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This is such stupidity. There weren't even 4,000 Israelis working at the WTC. They would have occupied something like 40 floors of the building!!! And some of the people who called did identify the hijackers as Arabs. Barbara Olson identified them as Arab men. And the link you provided had nothing to do with anything that you wrote about!!!
 
Steve Holmes
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To John Bateman,
The Bill of rights is the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution, and the right to bear arms was the second amendment and so you are right about it being in the bill of rights.
The right to bear arms is tied with our citizens being able to form militias, which were used against foreign governments and our own. Militias were also used by our government during both the revolutionary war and the Civil War (in both the Union and confederacy).
I agree that it's not about the right to carry hand guns, nor do we really have that right. But we can have rifles, handguns, shotguns, etc. at our home, and can even assemble in groups with all these weapons.
The main point I was making is that unlike many countries where people have nothing better than rocks and sticks to resist an oppressive force, the American people are much better armed. People like our pal Jake hate that us poor-dumb-ignorant-media-controlled-folks have a say in our government.
Jake:
You've never been reluctant to express your opinions, you're just scared to support them.
Examples of your opinions:
1. The people on this group are ignorant
2. Americans are totally controlled by our slanted media
3. The terrorist attacks were caused by the unbalance in the world between the American oppressors and the oppressed from other countries.
3. Americans deserve the anti-American sentiment
4. You are wise and learned due to your extensive world traveling
5. I am narrow minded
6. The Wise (you) should not even try to explain your wisdom to narrow minded ignorant folk (me and apparently everyone else in the group and in America)
Here is the support for your opinions:
1. oops, nothing here
I have never heard the expression "politics for the masses" to be honest. It obviously bothers you that in America policies are made by the ignorant masses like me and not be the intellectual Aristocracy like yourself.
Karl Marx and natural law. I unfortunately had to read a fair amount of Marx. Most of his work comes from Hegel or were responses to Hegel's work. I don't think Marx was the great mind that Hegel was, but the fact that he was able to understand and comment on Hegel means he can't have been completely dumb. Anyone who had to read Hegel knows what I'm talking about. Anyone who hasn't but wants to, try drinking alot of beer first, it makes the whole experience a lot less painful.
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Nope never heard it. I have heard "religion is the opiate of the people."


Originally posted by OMAR KHAN:
Karl Marx?


Hm. I read that these words belong to Charles Kingsley, an Anglican clergyman, and Marx only cited them.

[This message has been edited by Mapraputa Is (edited September 26, 2001).]
 
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