for Indians...

[Ashok Mash]

Others.. please excuse. This is just a treatment for ourselfs.. I found this in my inbox this morning, and this is NOT my personal opinion. But, I enjoyed reading that... Because I am an Indian. Pardon me if this hurts your feeling, its 100% un-intentional
Ashok.
Just a few thoughts:
This letter has been written by an Indian who is still an Indian by heart, hoping to make other Indians and non Indians understand better.
I remember in March 1993, when the skyline of Bombay was almost blown off with a series of bomb blasts- bombs went off at the Bombay Stock Exchange building, Air India building, Musjid Bunder, a bus near Passport Office, a building near Poonam Chambers, Plaza cinema hall at Dadar, Centaur Hotel Juhu and Sea Rock Hotel at Bandra to name a few.
Thousands lost their lives, thousand others were wounded and the poor became poorer still. We all knew who had done it but were asked by the powerful nations to refrain ourselves and not come to conclusions so fast. To rise above the situation and carry on the teachings of our great leaders of the past like Gandhiji. And so, terrorist likes Dawood and Tiger Memon were allowed to escape to Pakistan and flourish. The world carried on and no one
bothered.

A few years later Pakistan once again was at war with us. The Kargil War will be remembered for many years by those Indians who lived with the fear of not knowing what will happen next. Horror stories of any war are exactly what it says it is -horrifying! Once again we had great countries like the US telling us to work for peace and that quick fix solutions or an
eye for an eye is not the right answer. When documents were produced stating that France continues to sell arms to Pakistan, no embargo, no sanctions but "good advice" was given. We were reminded that we were the world's largest Democracy and hence should be the big sister to a nation who in fact is a day older than us!
December 1999, Christmas time, the whole world was celebrating the end of the century and the beginning to a new millennium, but many Indians were watching the news on television for any news on those near and dear ones who were hijacked and suffering in the "cold" land of Khandahar. No help from any nation. The world has no solutions for India! India once again fends for herself. She cries out to put a stop to terrorism that is rampantly increasing in neighboring Pakistan but what did the great nations profess-show them the other cheek like Jesus Christ told us to do!
When, out of desperation, India carried out the Pokhrain II nuclear test, the whole world condemned us, US sanctions were the first to be implemented. Pakistan was given as much support as required. India was firmly told to cool down!
India has time and again spoken up for terrorism. The same country which has for centuries been far ahead of the western world in its way of thinking - almost like a mother who bears all the sufferings and yet is the first to forget and forgive. Isn't it ironical that the big bully who did not think twice before the Pearl Habour bombing, raced to wipe out Vietnam, eagerly instigated Israel, time and again reminded their next generation that they should fight for justice turns about face when it comes to their country?
America, the country who finds it difficult to swallow the same bitter pill, the DEVELOPED NATION who had no clue of what was going to happen to them on a Tuesday morning, who had no inkling of events to unfold- the same country who has all along just given us lip service got full support from India in its time of need , a country who has helped the US grow by letting the creme de la creme work in their country- India stood by a nation in its time of need.
India, you are a great country. You are indeed sare jaha se acha.
I am proud to be an Indian. Are You?

[This message has been edited by J Ash (edited October 02, 2001).]

[Anonymous]

When did the US tell you not to do anything other than nuke Pakistan. Editorial opinion piece presented as fact.

[Ashok Mash]

Originally posted by ABC ABC:
When did the US tell you ...

I don't know.
But I understand that there was a flow of sympathy-letters from all big countries in 1993, and if you read between lines, they all were almost the same... "Maintain restraint.. Don't act in a hurry.. Don�t blame others (even with evidence).. Calm down.. Please do nothing.. Stay quite.. Do nothing.. U Better DO NOTHING.."
Let me repeat again, I am not arguing that the letter in first post is authentic or trustworthy of any sort. It�s just a letter, and it was born when somebody decided to write down his or her frustration and feelings... And YES, it sounds great to me.. and hopefully to my fellow Indians also.
Take it easy.
Ashok.

[omar khan]

Originally posted by J Ash:
I am proud to be an Indian. Are You?

Yes.

[Badriprasad Bumbabol]

Ash, though I share your patriotic feeling for our Motherland, I must say I have been quite Disappointed about how we and our politicians behaviour.
We have no right to blame other Countries who asked us to show restraint because in the end the decision was ours. We are a Soft nation and will remain the target of terrorists. The Bombay Blasts and the Hijacking in Kandahar proved that without doubt that anyone can make Indians target and get away easily without getting punished.
We elected the BJP Government hoping that they would be more Aggressive against our enemies and would take a hard-Line but Vajpayee and his team have been more sissies and pansies than the earlier governments. When Bangladeshi soldiers kill some of our soldiers what do we do , we write a letter to the Bangladeshi PM showing our anguish. When terrorists kill 40 in the J&K Assemnbly what do we do , we write to the US President. What the Hell !!! WE DONT NEED PERMISSION FROM ANYONE TO DEFEND OURSELVES.
I am just too disappointed.
Dejected Indian
Tintin

[Sahir Shibley]

Excuse me. The PM is no sissy, neither is his team. Our policy towards Pakistan has been one of self restraint. In the wake of the recent Kashmir assembly house bombing the Minister of State for External Affairs Mr.Omar Abdulla echoed what has been on the minds of many Indians "There is a limit to India's patience" . One day they will try our patience too high. But until then we treat these events as crimes and deal with the perpretrators as we deal with other criminals. If our PM makes statements in the same vein as what Bush has been making and does nothing then you can call him anything. Until then I shall thank you for keeping a civil tongue in your head.

[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited October 02, 2001).]

[omar khan]

I agree with Sahir.

[Ashok Mash]

I agree with Sahir, but Tintin also has a point.
If you compare the vigour of our then Caretaker-PM, at the time of Kargil war, and then the stand of complete restraint that we get to see now.. Especially that incident when Bangladeshi mob and army mutilated the bodies of Indian soldiers after murdering them Eyes pierced, burned...
I think this kind of restraint from our country, will make our other neighbours bolder to carry on any atrocities on us.. I firmly believe Bangladeshi�s (bad guys- not ordinary people) knew that we are going to do only this much. And may be tomorrow a Nepal or Bhutan origin maniac may cause havoc in my city.. your city too..
I am with this.
Ashok.

[Badriprasad Bumbabol]

Sahir, Thinking your viewpoint is the only Right Viewpoint shows what kind of "civil" mind/tongue you have.
I had a view to put across and I did it. Didnt ask you to judge it. If u want to discuss it , lets do it in a more amicable way.
Coming back to the topic, I never said lets start a war with Pakistan but Showing too much Self-restraint gives out a Signal that we are not competent enough to give a reply.
Sahir, When someone shouts at you, you can show Self-Restraint. and ignore it But if someone you know is being raped/killed , do you Show Self-restraint Or is it time to take steps to stop it once and for all ?? I dont want an answer, give the answer to yourself.
Tintin

[Anonymous]

I agree with Tintin. There is a saying..."laaton ke bhoot baaton se nahin maante" meaning people who know the language of kicks do not understand the language of words.
That's exactly the case with these terrorists (and their super class, the pakis).
Till we kick the s**t out of them, they are not going to listen. Yes, I had hoped for much more from Vajpayee government but they are too no different than the congress. Kargil was a very good chance to teach them a lesson and like f***ing idiots, we "showed" restraint.


[This message has been edited by Nathan Pruett (edited October 03, 2001).]

[Anonymous]

Hey Pal
< abusive language deleted > and still r because of your attrcities on kashmir killing millions through your armed forces even though they r unarmed cause your forces < defecation expeletive deleted > when they see the armed ones(genuine Bas***ds) u will be prove omen very shortly.
Sterilize your selves.
[This message has been edited by Nathan Pruett (edited October 03, 2001).]

[Pranav Jaidka]

The indians rest their case after the above post.
[This message has been edited by Pranav Jaidka (edited October 02, 2001).]

[Sahir Shibley]

Ignore that guy. His inferiority complex is going into overdrive.

Till we kick the shit out of them, they are not going to listen. Yes, I had hoped for much more from Vajpayee government
but they are too no different than the congress. Kargil was a very good chance to teach them a lesson and like f***ing
idiots, we "showed" restraint.

The lessons have already been taught in 1965 and 1971 . They seem to have short memories. A reminder may be due soon. What lends them so much courage is the American support. They will push their luck too far one day. Our leaders have to consider many things before they commit our country to a war. War is not a pleasant thing even if you win , and the cost is tremendous. It will put economic progress back by many years.
Besides another solution is on the horizon.
http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_id=1159696245
America may have to withdraw it's indirect support for terrorism and save India from having to wage an unnecessary war.
I found the predicament that America is in extremely funny . They are caught in a web of their own making. It is no longer possible for them to categorise attacks like the one on the Srinagar Assembly as violence [offending word removed by Sahir Shibley] while continuing to be outraged by the WTC attacks. They are caught between a rock and a hard place.

Tintin,
Let me rephrase my previous message. You are entitled to your opinion about waging war on Pakistan, Bangladesh etc. But Atalji is a gentleman and a scholar and I would be extremely grateful if you could refrain from calling him names.

[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited October 06, 2001).]

[Anonymous]

Sahir you are an ass. When has the US ever categorized an attack as "GOOD FUN". Don't through out blatant lies as fact.

[Ashok Mash]

ABC ABC sounds like an 'American Terrorist'. Ignore him. Dump Him...
Ashok.

[Angela Poynton]

Just a polite warning ... a number of people here are risking having their posts deleted or edited if they don't start entering into this discussion in a civilised manner. Also their accounts may be blocked. So far a few posts have been very close to the line .. please don't cross it.
As for those who think they are protected because they aren't registered .... it has been a subject of debate whether or not to stop unregistered postings ... you're only adding fuel to the argument of those who want this to happen.
Also please remember personal attacks will not be tolerated.

[Cindy Glass]

Actually I agree with ABC ABC, the US may have labeled some stuff "an act of violence" instead of "terrorism" - but it NEVER labeled it "Good Fun". Sahir is twisting facts to support his "amuzement".

[Anonymous]

Angela,
So you are saying my calling him a name is somehow worse than saying the US thinks any other acts of terrorism are good fun. That is PC at its finest. Also the post accusing me of being a terrorist.
If your post is not directed at me, then you need to be more specific. Let me know which speech you think should be censored and is over the line.

[Sahir Shibley]

I dont mind being called an ass. So far the only ones who call me an ass are my wife and my math teacher (while i was at school). One more will not kill me.

[Ashok Mash]

Originally posted by Sahir Shibley:

I dont mind being called an ***

Another example of Great Indian Tolerance? Ahimsa??!!

[Ashok Mash]

Oh come on Pal, ( to ABC ABC)
Didn't u see that (grinning) at the end of the post? Take it easy. I said sounds like... Not you are.
Ur stern stands and blind arguments make me rethink about rephrasing me sentence though.
We are not Terrorists - We are just Ranchers!!
Ashok.

[Andy Ceponis]

I agree with ABC ABC 100%. Sahir is slandering the U.S but thats ok. But if anyone says anything back its not ok? A little biased Angela?

[Ashok Mash]

Andy, Cindy,
May I explain?
We have seen many conflict of ideas already in this forum. So I do not think Angela was refering to that. I can see what was wrong with ABC ABC's post. He/She was posting unregistered, which is meant for fun-posts, content of the message was clearly calling out loudly - Sahir, You are an A**. Don't you think thats wrong.
Or do you think, if I post UK is the best country in the whole world and Tony B is the best leader and all Indians and Americans are nothing but just a bunch of ***** (some filthy word).. Will she spare me? I dont think so..

Ashok.

[Anonymous]

How about if I say this, his post was asinine. Will that be better. J Ash if J isn't your first name then you didn't follow naming policy either.

[Angela Poynton]

I was actually referring to a number of posts by a number of people.
Am I biased? Well I'm not American, I'm not Indian and I'm not Pakistani, so I'm probably less biased than most people in this thread
Anyway it was just a polite warning, I don't like anyone here being called names. This is still a friendly place.
I'm all for intelligent discussion, this can still occur with vastly opposing points of view without resorting to childish name-calling.
Those who have been around long enough know I can be firm but fair when arguments get out of hand.

[Ashok Mash]

My first name is not J.
But its 'Jay'! Or atleast thats what everybody calls me. What difference it makes if I write it as J?
Its saves MBs, u know. It was in tele here couple of months before - Homer J Simpson went around looking for expansion of that J in his name.. and at last he found out - it was just 'Jay'.

[Andy Ceponis]

Originally posted by Angela Poynton:
Anyway it was just a polite warning, I don't like anyone here being called names. This is still a friendly place.

It should be a friendly place. I agree on that part.
But i think that some people on here that are bashing the U.S are hiding behind people like you who will stick up for them when someone takes notice and calls them on it. Name calling of a person or a people is the same to me, and i wont stand for it. I will not sit idly by and watch people bash this or that and not say my piece. Since i cant slap people around in person i have to resort to name calling.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Andy. But you won't change her mind. She feels that the asinine post was ok but my calling him a donkey was not. So be it. Now that we have the ground rules established I guess it is ok to say things about countries and whole groups of people but not call out indivuals who make those statements. I guess that really is being fair. Sorry I didn't see that before.

[Sahir Shibley]

If you all think the word "good fun" was slanderous please read "good fun" in my previous message as "violence". Now why would you want to slap anyone around for saying this. Colin Powell didn't try to slap Jaswant Singh (our foreign minister) around for saying it. He just sat there looking uncomfortable. Besides if you saw me you woudn't want to slap me around . You seem to have forgotten the WTC incident pretty quick. Now you want to slap the Indians around for saying you shoudn't allow them to get away with it? How pathetic.

[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited October 03, 2001).]

[Angela Poynton]

Let me clarify. I was talking to a NUMBER of people of BOTH sides of the argument.
Name calling of people, or peoples is NOT acceptable.
A reasoned discussion can happen without being judgmental or childish .

[Sahir Shibley]

I did not do any name calling. I was just quoting what I read in the paper about what the Taliban leader was calling them.

[Anonymous]

You quoted nothing. Those were your words.
Angela,
Unless you point to specific posts and continue to make generalized statements, nobody will no what posts you consider off limits. You have only made one clear. So trying to say you haven't shown bias is false. Just saying a number of posts and other posts doesn't help at all. Your bias is with unregistered posters. Any others are allowed to spout off what ever they feel like. It is very obviouse to those who read all of these threads that saying something about a country is within reason to you. This is the only thread you have made a complaint in and only because of the word ass. So show me where you have been without bias.

[Angela Poynton]

Originally posted by ABC ABC:

Unless you point to specific posts and continue to make generalized statements, nobody will no what posts you consider off limits. You have only made one clear.

1. Who are you to criticise me. At least when I put my point of view across, I don't hide behind an unregistered name.
2. I never said ANY of the posts were over the limits, I just suggested that that was the direction many of them were going. But before you rant on any more let me give some examples of some things that some people said in this thread that led me to think this.

Originally posted by Dawood Ibrahim jr
< abusive language deleted > and still r because of your attrcities on kashmir killing millions through your armed forces even though they r unarmed cause your forces < defecation expeletive deleted > when they see the armed ones(genuine Bas***ds) u will be prove omen very shortly.
Sterilize your selves.

Originally posted by ABC ABC
Sahir you are an ass.

A word of advice for those posting something potentially argumentative. If you are quoting a person or an article, say so. This discussion was OK for the first few posts then turned nasty because someone forgot to quote their source and was accused of having that view point themselves.
Oh and no, even if you said that the UK should rule the world and all other countries should bow to their will ... I would still have had the same reaction
People here who have been around here long enough will no I'm very intolerent of abuse; whether it is aimed at inidviduals or groups. However, although there have been some posts which I would consider abusive most people have presented their arguments in a calm, considered, rational and intelligent way.
The world would be a very boring place if we all felt the same about everything, so we can't expect Meaningless drivel to be a haven of peace and tranquility, but it mustn't be forgotton that meaningless drivel Is a part of Javaranch and Javaranch is a forum for Professional discussion, and of course occasionally letting of steam by posting something silly or funny.
There have been many threads in this forum which involved much heated debate, it is a credit to the people who participated in those threads that most of them went on without resorting to abuse.
That is really the only point I was trying to make.

[Sahir Shibley]

Originally posted by ABC ABC:
You quoted nothing. Those were your words.

I made a slight error. It wasn't Mullah Omar who said this, it was Qazi Hussain Ahmad the Pakistani leader of Jamaat-e Islami the parent organisation of all islamic extremist groups. I heard this on a BBC radio broadcast. I am trying to find a link to the news report. He just said the Americans are cowards and will never dare to atatck them. I threw in the word sissy for dramatic effect because it is essentially the same thing.

[This message has been edited by Sahir Shibley (edited October 04, 2001).]

[Andy Ceponis]

Dont try to push off your slanderous posts on some quote. You have posted way more than simple quotes from 1 person, so stop trying to hide behind that.

[Anonymous]

Still don't see your point. I stand by my statements. You're not showing reason just anger that someone thinks you are wrong and have shown bias. You show more bias by whining about unregistered posters. Since this forum allows it, it is a meaningless argument. Like I said I have saw much worse claims against countries and peoples and the only time you spoke out was when the word ass was used.

Angela,
Oh and no, even if you said that the UK should rule the world and all other countries should bow to their will ... I would still have had the same reaction

You didn't say a word on the thread until someone was called an ass for their asinine post. Even though the statement was that the US thought the terrorist acts against India were "Good Fun". So don't preach and say that was a well reasoned argument.
Registration is recommended, but not required, in order to post messages in this forum. Unless registered, you will not be able to edit messages after they are submitted.

Angela,
Who are you to criticise me. At least when I put my point of view across, I don't hide behind an unregistered name.

Are you saying that someone unregistered automatically can't say anything and that if you use a registered name automatically makes you right. Bit touchy about being criticized aren't we. I could say you are hiding behind your position but that wouldn't make it true.

[Sahir Shibley]

I am not trying to hide behind anything. If you are referring to the part about America lending indirect support to Islamic fundamentalists. Yes, I will own up to that statement. Jaswant Singh more or less said the same thing to Colin Powell. No, I did not coach Jaswant Singh on what to say to Colin Powell. In fact I have never met him.

[Mapraputa Is]

You didn't say a word on the thread until someone was called an ass for their asinine post.
If someone said: "Sahir, I disagree with your post because of
1) ...
2) ...
3) ...
I also feel offended by how you put it..." Angela wouldn't probably say a word on the thread at all.
If you disagree with someone's post you are totally, completely, 100% free to say that you are disagree. If you do it in a mature and respectful manner (in spite of the fact you think your opponent was disrespectful), you make your arguments even stronger.

[Angela Poynton]

Originally posted by ABC ABC:
You're not showing reason just anger that someone thinks you are wrong and have shown bias. You show more bias by whining about unregistered posters. Since this forum allows it, it is a meaningless argument. Like I said I have saw much worse claims against countries and peoples and the only time you spoke out was when the word ass was used.

1. I only came accross this thread after the word ass was used ... sorry can't travel back in time and insert a post before that ... the software doesn't allow it.
2. I'm not in the least bit angry. I was just doing my job. I saw the thread beginning to take a nasty turn and just thought I'd post a gentle reminder that the administrators of this forum will make sure it remains a friendly place. If anyone is angry it's you.
3. I criticise you for hiding behind your unregistered name because when I speak to somebody I like to be able to say their name without sounding like a 3 year old learning the alphabet. Also although as you rightly point out, unregistered posts are allowed here, but as I said earlier, there are those amongst the administrators amongst whom I am one who would prefer that they weren't and when unregistered posters (and I'm not just refering to you ABC ABC ) post abusive remarks you are in fact helping the cause of this group to win our argument. My point was that I put my points of view along with my name, because I'm not afraid to be identified with them, how about you? You're very vocal in this forum, no problem with that but I have wondered why you are afraid to own your comments. The fact that you use an unregistered name means that anyone else can post unregistered with the same name and put across an argument that you would totally disagree with, and to the rest of us it would appear it was you.
4. I'm not hiding behind my authority. I just happen to have some authority in the moderation of this forum, it doesn't make me right or wrong. This is why before any posts are edited/deleted or moved to a Private forum discussion takes place in the Moderators Only forum, a kind of vote is taken and whatever the outcome the appropriate action is taken.

[Anonymous]

See what I mean!!