Shrink it americans

[Anonymous]

Talk of american inventions:
I do not know if they have tv/radio in afgh. But I know that these Afgh used american made missiles and guns. That is what they used to destroy statues of Budhdha. US was sleeping when India and Sri Lanka offered to restore the statues and pakistan continued to support them after that event. (India is not budhdhist country. But that is what secularism means)
Do afghans have right to curse americans after using american stuff and "inventions"?
If they paid for the weapons and guns which you sold, they have right to curse americans even after using the trucks/cars and weapons.
In general, if you want to brag about things you have invented, don't sell it to others. They are not using it for free. So they can use all that and still curse your culture. When people buy american goods they dont sign a contract to support american values. And If you are willing to argue on that stupid line. I get to see lot of "Made in China" stuff in US and still history tells me that you hate communists more than laden.
On the other hand, if they(afgh) got the weapons for free, EVERYONE has right to curse American government.
You taught him how to kill Russians. For past several years he and his kind supported directly or indirectly by you or your allies were killing people of my country. You did not even notice. And now he killed your people.
Is there any such thing as to learn from past mistakes in your democratic nation? I think first step is to admit that you made mistakes
You were wrong in using islamic fanatisism against communists in afgh
Also, most of the 3rd word countries whom you support(ed) are/were ruled by some kind of Noriega, Zia-Ul-Haq or Musharraf or some King of Saudi or some islamic leader. You never bothered to support democracy or democratic movement in these countries. For a simple reason that it is easier to control Noriega than to control entire population of panama. (Untill he started sending drugs and medical supplies for your kids )
You are just a big talk using words democracy and freedom. You already sold your values for short term gain in cold war.
I did not see a single post from an american ready to admit these mistakes. And no matter how much you flex your muscles. Rest of the world knows the truth.
Welcome to the group of countries affected by terrorism.
Did I hurt your EGO?
It is because it is inflated for no reason. Shrink it.

[Ashok Mash]

Welcome to the group of countries affected by terrorism.

Agreed. A cold welcome mate!!

[Anonymous]

I see they are terrorists if they attack India. But the Palestinians doing the same to Isreal is different.
J Ash I thought unregistered posters never had anything to say.
Maybe I was wrong being on the side against all of zulfigar raza's posts. It is probably that arrogant attitude that brought on the problems with Pakistan.

If I put a smiley, I can say what I want. Right J.

[Ashok Mash]

If I put a smiley, I can say what I want. Right J.
If that smiley symbolises your feeling and meaning of you statement, pal.
And about Palestine and Israel - I am totally ignorant. I WILL NOT comment on them because so far I have only read or heard about those events through western/European/Asian media, and that can be biased. But when it comes to Kashmir, when it comes to India and Pakistan, I have inside information - information from my own near and dears who have witnessed and suffered so much - including my father, who have spend 28 good years of his life fighting in the Pakistan (mostly) and Chinese border frontiers where fighting has never stoped... . And I find that believable. And so I comment accordingly.
Take it easy mate <--- I mean it.
Ashok.

[This message has been edited by J Ash (edited October 04, 2001).]

[Jason Menard]

Shrink what?
Anyone remember Shrinky Dinks? These decorations that you put in your oven and they shriveled up?
Or perhaps you're talking about "shrinkage"? *In best George Castanza voice* "Jerry, tell her about the shrinkage!"
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited October 04, 2001).]

[Andy Ceponis]

Great, another moronic poster. Did you actually read what you typed? Or did you just type it because it looks good and has a better effect?
There has been like 100000000 posts like this the past few weeks. I thought this sort of behavior was relegated to 13 yr old flamer boards. Thanks for showing everyone that you have the mentality of a 13yr old.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Andy Ceponis:
Great, another moronic poster. Did you actually read what you typed? Or did you just type it because it looks good and has a better effect?
There has been like 100000000 posts like this the past few weeks. I thought this sort of behavior was relegated to 13 yr old flamer boards. Thanks for showing everyone that you have the mentality of a 13yr old.

You are talking about jason's post I assume

[Michael Ernest]

Well that's a very novel approach, Ram Ram. This is a time when lots of people say things well outside their character; they're just trying to cope with events they could not believe would happen. Now innocent Sikhs are assaulted in this country because of their looks. It will be a full year before the wreckage of the WTC buildings is completely cleared, along with the bodies at the very bottom. Virtually the entire world is declaring war on one regime that refuses to surrender the person who is ultimately responsible for all of this.
But you are apparently frustrated because no American has stepped forward to apologize? Apologize? For what? Causing these attacks to happen? "We're sorry we made you kill our own people, including several hundred foreign nationals who were also in those buildings?" Is that what you need to hear for you to heal?
Exactly which of the 5000+ people killed in these attacks do you hold accountable for U.S. foreign policy? Or are all Americans agents of their government for you? Maybe we just all look the same to you?
If you're so proud of your own government, tell you what: why don't you curse it in a public place? Or better yet, why don't you burn your own country's flag, or use it as a floor mat in the local town square? Then let's see how highly your countrymen prize freedom of expression.
Here in the U.S., no one likes seeing those things happen, but they're tolerated for a reason. It's that very tolerance that proves Americans will fight for freedom even while others try to beat them over the head with it. It's that very freedom that makes the country strong enough to take flag burnings and murder of innocents and move on.
You can thumb your nose at the U.S. all you want. This country never built itself on the premise that it was infallible. But when the U.S. makes apologies, you sure won't see one of them ever issued to terrorists or their sympathizers. You'll be waiting a long, long time.
[This message has been edited by Michael Ernest (edited October 04, 2001).]

[Mapraputa Is]

To be fair, Ram Ram wrote all above as a response to this thread, which offended a lot of non-Americans here, I suppose (whether an offence was intended or not is another question). So maybe he (or she...) said things well outside his character also, who can tell... The point is that when so many of us are saying things we would not say in other circumstances, it may be better to become silent and spend this time otherwise, thinking, for example... Never mind, I am talking to myself

[This message has been edited by Mapraputa Is (edited October 04, 2001).]

[Mapraputa Is]

In particular, it is not the best time to "constructively criticize" America. You probably restrict yourself from criticizing someone you love when his/her relative died. Or if you do not, then do not be surprised with outrageous absense of gratitude. Talking to myself again.

[David O'Meara]

Map: your comments (in several threads) are too intellegent and well presented. They have no place here.

(damn, too much sarcasm for my own good)
(I've had the feeling for a while that 'moderate' views haven't been too welcome. I agree that its more a sign of the times than a sign of the quality of people here or the site itself
Dave)

[Michael Ernest]

It's been asked here and in other threads why anyone should respond to the more outrageous statements made in this forum. Map, I agree with you there is a time for silence and, to paraphrase others, to avoid dignifying some comments by responding to them. For me, this is not one of those times.
People like Ram Ram simply do not understand the anger that people like me feel. It's not about justification stemming from the atrocities of the past, and it's certainly not wrapped in the pretense of religious righteousness. But it is most certainly about taking arms against thousands of defenseless people, and calling it justifiable or god's work. Anyone who wants to call that Justice in any form does deserve a response.
We've mourned our losses, and now, more than ever, we're concerned about responding to these events in a way that does not drag us into that same state of mind that our attackers steep themselves in. My America is not a bloodthirsty one, and not one heated by revenge. "We only have those rights we can defend." And if we cannot impress our will to defend upon our attackers, whether they are militant or merely verbal, we can expect only more of the same.
The essence of the freedom we cherish lies in expression. America thrives on the exchange of ideas, and we hold that process so dear that no legal distinction is made between good and bad sentiments, moral and amoral ideas, plain and outrageous thoughts.
All we really have is the freedom to speak out. That same freedom allows Ram Ram to say something unpopular (or ignorant and ill-conceived). As we can see in this one thread, responses are inevitable, and some make no attempt to rise above the statements that inspired them. So be it; there's no law that says Ram Ram's statements deserve better than what they offer, but as long as he's chosen to put them out there, they do not in my view deserve the dignity of standing alone.
In this kind of forum, I find two kinds of useful silence: one, to acknowledge an elegant truth that one cannot add to; two, to learn something one cannot otherwise discover for himself. But when any one of us has something ill-conceived to say and takes the time to write it down, I see no benefit in refusing to answer it.
[This message has been edited by Michael Ernest (edited October 05, 2001).]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
To be fair, Ram Ram wrote all above as a response to this thread, which offended a lot of non-Americans here, I suppose (whether an offence was intended or not is another question). So maybe he (or she...) said things well outside his character also, who can tell... The point is that when so many of us are saying things we would not say in other circumstances, it may be better to become silent and spend this time otherwise, thinking, for example... Never mind, I am talking to myself

[This message has been edited by Mapraputa Is (edited October 04, 2001).]

Looking back over that thread you quoted, I see nothing offensive in there (other than the Ganges thing ). The only people who I think would take offense are those who the rant was addressed to in the first place. Sahir Shibley tried on several occasions to misrepresent what I was saying. I and others tried on multiple occassions to clarify for him but he was obviously bent on being inflammatory. As for Ram Ram, he isn't worth responding to, imho.
If anyone cares to explain to me with civility what they found offensive I would be more than happy to address that, and if nothing else maybe we can gain gain some understanding.

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Anyone who wants to call that Justice in any form does deserve a response.

I would agree with you 100% if responses were only made by people who carefully control what they are saying for 1) not to hurt "other party" intentionally 2) prevent unintended misunderstanding. And even in this case misunderstanding seem inevitably - people are too to pay attention to subtleties and correctly read between lines.
See what happened here: first some hm... (let's not use bad words) participants posted less-then-friendly messages about the USA. Americans, naturally, responded and some of their responses were read as arrogant and aimed against all non-Americans, even if they were not intended so. I found that some of non-American participants I always respected started to snap and for not to point too far, I myself couldn't resist a pleasure to post some sarcastic comments.
I know I wouldn't do it two weeks ago.
You said "People like Ram Ram simply do not understand the anger that people like me feel" and it's undoubtedly true. But the opposite is also true: you are very likely do not understand people like Ram Ram. When we have such different backgrounds, it's a miracle that we can sometimes understand each other
Only one subtle observation: I caught myself on rather negative feelings watching American flags everywhere around, and that's my um... cultural heritage that biases my perception. From the first days I was born, pictures of American flag appeared only in negative context; they always symbolized something bad and dangerous. Now I can perfectly understand that there is no reason for negative feelings, but unfortunately impressions from childhood sit too deep in us and influence from inside I did not even realized that I have negative feelings toward American flag, I just went in sarcastic mood every time I saw it and rationalized that it's nothing but my wonderful sense of humor . In many cases hostility to your country has irrational roots, and offenders themselves do not realize it. Often they (we) speak out of preconceptions and, unfortunately, some of responses only nourish these preconceptions.
Offender: "Americans are arrogant @#%s. To prove it, let's try this: "Americans, you are arrogant @#%s, you screwed up here, here and here. Are you going to admit it and apologise?"
Americans: "You are damn @#%^* and first learn how to spell "apologize"!
Offender: "See - I told you! They are arrogant @#%s"
Bad thing that such dialogs affect even those of us who are generally capable for introspection and sane thinking, and set us against each other Now when some American misspells a word, it will be nicely pointed out with a proper comment. Yesterday I would be at such a response, today I can perfectly understand and even gloat over it. My emotional reactions degenerated enough to be predicted by a simple schema: "American's post - negative reaction, non-American's post - positive reaction", sometimes in spite of what was said. It's scary.
That's why I proposed "temporary silence policy" - as an easiest way to save
myself from further degeneration. (Those who love above dialogs will not listen to me anyway , and I in no way hope to prevent these dialogs). Of course, it would be better if we could explain what we feel and listen to each other, but we are too busy with Response Chain Reaction...
Sorry for talking about myself too much. I can only speculate what other feel, so I decided it would be safer to speak for myself mostly.
[This message has been edited by Mapraputa Is (edited October 05, 2001).]

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
If anyone cares to explain to me with civility what they found offensive I would be more than happy to address that, and if nothing else maybe we can gain gain some understanding.

Interesting question.
I should admit that I (Me, Myself, if to plagiarize Marcus Green ), interpreted it as "all progress is made by us (US ), so you all shut up and listen to us". Sorry again for talking about Myself - that's the only valid information I have!
Jason, after your explanations and after reading your posts (many times) I would agree that you did not mean it. So why did I initially read it wrong way...
First, I read it in context of many other (negative and more extreme) comments made recently, so your post obtained overtones which, after better thinking, do not belong to it. Next, you addressed your post to "the American bashers" and being non-native speaker of English I was not sure what exactly "bashers" means. I understood the meaning, but I did not know in what context it is normally used. How bad is it? If I dislike something about America, am I "basher" or not? Actually, by the time of your post I already identified myself with "the American bashers", because I could see the point in some of their posts, or at least, did not find them as offensive as Americans did. In other words I understood motivation behind their posts, but I did not understand your, guys, reaction. I think, that's what made me identify myself with "the American bashers", although first I felt totally opposed to them and had no inclination to criticize America or Americans or anything like that.
One reason why I did not find them as offensive is that many of "accusations" are pretty typical outside of the US, we got used to them, we think they are obvious, so why are Americans offended?
Another reason is that you see "the American bashers" posts through Sep. 11 events and you often see them as Justification of these events. I suspect many "bashers" posted their opinions without any regard to these events, and they did not mean justification in any form. I am afraid that people from countries that went through similar events may not see it as "big deal", as blasphemous it may sound. Again, I can only say for myself, so... In the USSR we were constantly reminded about 20 millions killed in WWII, there always were tanks and bombs on our TV, somebody died - daily... Until casualties exceed millions we do not consider them serious I am not proud of it, actually I think that was the main reason why we tolerated Afghan war so long - nobody realized that we had a war. War is when there are no more adult men on factories, so hungry 13-14 old boys and girls have to replace them... Until then it's not a war, it's just a political game... It's so deep in us, so when I saw President Bush assured the world that terrorists did not scare the USA... Hey, who doubt? Your reaction looked exaggerated to me. I am not saying that my perception is right and yours is wrong, no. I think yours is more human: no single death should be tolerated. I am just explaining why I cannot find any justification of terrorist acts in Ram Ram's post, for example. Annoyance, arrogance - well, yes, but justification... I cannot see any proof.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Next, you addressed your post to "the American bashers" and being non-native speaker of English I was not sure what exactly "bashers" means. I understood the meaning, but I did not know in what context it is normally used.

I suppose it is natural in a multi-cultural setting such as Java Ranch that some disagrements may arise over the subtelties of language. As a native speaker I should be more sensitive to the fact that not everybody may easily follow the slang regardless of how well they speak English, if they are not a native speaker., and I should try to use more precise language.
www.dictionary.com gives a good meaning for "bash[er]" as used in this context. Bash: To engage in harsh, accusatory, threatening criticism. So as I used it, an "American Basher" would be someone who engages in harsh, accusatory, threatening criticism of America or Americans.

but I did not understand your, guys, reaction.
.
.
.
I am afraid that people from countries that went through similar events may not see it as "big deal"

Maybe I can shed some light here. First, I don't think there are people from other countries that went through similar events. There have been no similar events, at least not since WW2 maybe. Various countries have had domestic terrorism problems. Not the same thing. This was brought on us by outside forces. We ourselves have been subject to terrorist attacks throughout the world, but 100 people dying in a terrorist attack on a military barracks, embassy, nightclub, or apartment building simply is not even remotely on the same scale.
There are several things that make this attack particularly disturbing to American. Besides the terrible terrible fact that somewhere close to 7000 people were murdered in the space of a couple hours, much more was at stake than the loss of human life. Our economy, and therefore our way of life and livelihood, was attacked. The seat of American military power was attacked. And most probably our senior leaders were targetted but that attack failed. All this was carried out by foreign forces. That clearly defines an act of war. We had a sneak attack launched on us. There is no other way that this may be viewed. It does not matter that these creatures hide in the shadows and choose not to align themselves under one nation's flag. They are agents of foreign forces and that is all that is relevant.
There is a bit more to our reaction that non-Americans most likely do not understand. Much of this will sound arrogant, but I am only presenting it as fact, not as a boast. Very simply, we hold the belief that US soil, espescially but not limited to the continental United States, will not be attacked. The last time it happened was 1941. This is the utmost affront and there is only one acceptable punishment to the American people. I think most of us believe that simple punishment is not even enough, but for this affront those in any way responsible must be totaly destroyed. I point to Japan during WW2 as an example. While that kind of response may not be practical today, rest assured we will do everything we can to destroy those who would see then end to our way of life.
I really don't know if I can stress enough to non-Americans the significance we give to an attack on US soil. But if you can understand that we hold this to be an unforgiveable offense to us, maybe you will understand our reaction. Over the years the American public has not had the desire (rightly or wrongly) for the US to really use her military might. The side affect of the 9-11 attacks is now the American public is almost completely united in a desire to unleash our full military might, regardless of the casualties we may sustain, and regardless of the fact that there will be more attacks made against us. In fact I think we have resigned ourselves to the fact that there will almost certainly be more attacks made against us, possible very soon.
Does this make any sense? Can you maybe understand, even if you don't agree, the depths to which our anger goes? Innocent civilians, a large number of causalties, our way of life, the very symbols of America, and the fact that this happened on US soil add up to a very very large mistake on the part of the attackers. I don't know what they were trying to acheive, but it most likely will have the opposite affect.
The other thing I feel I need to point out, is that while we are doing our best to form a worldwide coalition against terrorism, we would have no problems doing this unilaterally if we had to. Again I am not trying to sound arrogant, but in our minds we have more than enough capability to wipe these thugs off the face of the earth without any international support, and when it comes down to it, we really don't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks.
That was long. Anyway, I hope just maybe I have answered some of your questions. I really don't expect everyone to agree with us, but understanding, even without agreement, goes a long way.

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Very simply, we hold the belief that US soil, especially but not limited to the continental United States, will not be attacked. The last time it happened was 1941. This is the utmost affront and there is only one acceptable punishment to the American people.
...Over the years the American public has not had the desire (rightly or wrongly) for the US to really use her military might.... I don't know what they were trying to acheive, but it most likely will have the opposite affect.

I these observations are on the money. Many Americans are ambivalent about the military actions we take abroad. It's unclear to many of us why we commit our troops to actions where the interests of the country at large at not entirely clear.
I for one wasn't keen on any of the conflicts we took part in through the 80's and 90's -- Grenada, the Falklands, Somalia, even the Gulf War -- I could see in those events mutual aid to our allies or protection of certain U.S. corporate interests, but beyond that I was skeptical.
There is little, if any, such reluctance about an attack on our soil, however. It doesn't happen here for the same reason it doesn't happen in China or Russia -- it's a pretty stupid idea to attack a superpower on its home turf. Clearly the Taliban understands now just how afraid we are to sock it to 'em on their own ground, judging by the race to the border.
I can't see why it would ever come down to nuclear weapons. The difference is our military believed we couldn't accept surrender from the Japanese -- we believed we had to destroy their resolve, utterly. Bu I do hope the lessons from Hiroshima and Nagasaki haven't been forgotten. We didn't give a damn about world opinion then, either, but what we have to live with now is being the only nation here willing to use weapons of mass destruction to make a point.
One of our subtler threats (and restraints) has always been this: "We're sure Country X loves its children too." The lessons of Iraq make us wonder. A government that will let its people starve rather than surrender power: not too smart. If that's the way you want it, we're ok with it. As Madeleine Albright has pointed out, we're not out to torture anyone, but we're not out to save a rogue country from itself, either.
[This message has been edited by Michael Ernest (edited October 06, 2001).]

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I suppose it is natural in a multi-cultural setting such as Java Ranch that some disagreements may arise over the subtleties of language. As a native speaker I should be more sensitive to the fact that not everybody may easily follow the slang regardless of how well they speak English, if they are not a native speaker., and I should try to use more precise language.

Guess I put too much weight on this issue in my post. I should have said that it is the least contributing factor. The problem, as I see it, is that for me English words do not carry any significant emotional value. Words of our native language trigger authomatic emotonal reactions, and that's what doesn't happen with second language. Or maybe it's only me. When I see "bashing" and "constructive criticism" I have the same emotions - none of them. Intellectually I know that there is a difference, but who believes that humans are intellectual creatures I thought that if I did feel the difference, it would prevent misinterpretation, but it's probably wrong. I tried to substitute "bashers" in your post with an analog from my native language, and I do not think it would change much. The main problem was that I saw many posts of Americans where they hold about the same attitude as your post toward guys whose views I shared to the some degree. So I suspected if I bothered to express my views (which I could do - some other time), I could be easily considered "basher". Semantic mist did not change much here.
These are our historical heritage, absorbed propaganda and a standard set of preconceptions that make crucial contribution to misunderstanding. It makes sense to worry about language subtleties only after more important barriers are destroyed, which will never happen, of course
There is a bit more to our reaction that non-Americans most likely do not understand. .. Very simply, we hold the belief that US soil, especially but not limited to the continental United States, will not be attacked.
That's true, I did not understand it. Even after few people pointed it out for me, I couldn't totally realize that Americans really believed they cannot be attacked. I am afraid this very believe (illusion?) is one of the reasons why Americans are often perceived as "arrogant" in other countries. Remember Ram Ram's "Welcome to the group of countries affected by terrorism"? I am not sure it was demonstration of hostility. Could possible be "now, after you get rid of your illusions, we can talk". But this is only my speculation, I am not going to insist on it.
I really don't know if I can stress enough to non-Americans the significance we give to an attack on US soil. But if you can understand that we hold this to be an unforgivable offense to us, maybe you will understand our reaction.
I should admit I never thought about this tragedy in terms of "unforgivable offense". Hm... I guess I saw these terrorists as a sort of impersonal irrational force, as intelligent and meaningful as an earthquake. It makes sense to prevent future earthquakes by all possible means, but why would someone feel offended... I can see your point, but I still cannot think about these people as even slightly intelligent creatures. If your act like earthquake, you are as intelligent and human as an earthquake. Offense can be taken only from someone equal, no?
and when it comes down to it, we really don't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks.
Aha! What did I say? Americans are arrogant. Kidding! If you thought so, you would not spend so much time explaining your views and feelings. So what you really mean by this? That you will make your decision about how to response even if somebody will disagree with it? Hard to argue. Why would America make its decision based on what other countries tell it to do. Or is there anything else?
[This message has been edited by Mapraputa Is (edited October 06, 2001).]

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
But you are apparently frustrated because no American has stepped forward to apologize? Apologize? For what? Causing these attacks to happen?
[/B]

Michael,
There seems to be some misunderstanding.
I did NOT ask for apology and I am NOT at all expecting you stop fight against terrorism.

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
"We're sorry we made you kill our own people, including several hundred foreign nationals who were also in those buildings?" Is that what you need to hear for you to heal?
[/B]

Are you drunk?
Why would I want you to say that ??? Because I or "we" did not kill your people. You can never catagorize me under thoes who killed your people.
I am not from afghanistan.
I am not from pakistan.
I am not a muslim (In case you are one of thoes Americans who thinks that ALL muslims are responsible)
I am not a citizen of a country which supports terrorism.
In fact I am citizen of a democratic country which is talking against international terrorism even before that concept was understood by anyone in western world. In fact my country was talking against terrorism when your country was supporting Bin Laden alikes to fight against communists.
All, I am saying is US DID support terrorists, dictators, fanatics and recist governments and did not show any interest in supporting democratic countries and cultures OUTSIDE USA. Though it pretends that it feels a lot for Kuwait. The fact is its feelings are limited to protecting control over oil resources of the world.
As Mapraputa Is pointed out in his post you guys are talking too arrogantly and somehow trying to denay above facts and are also under wrong impression that democratic values, freedom of speech etc. are unique to US and no one knows about it.
If not apology what do I expect from you?
Next time you go out to vote make sure you elect people/party who will give importance to democratic values not only within your country but also it should reflect in your foreign policy. There is a short term loss in this policy. but there are long term rewards.
If you want to interfere in other nations business because you are a super power; make sure you dont let down the values that you talk about so much.
I can assure you that I will consider this thing while I vote in my country. That is my answer to afghan based terrorists who caused WTC or pakistan based terrorists who caused Bombay bomb blasts. And I can only request you to do so in whatever country you live in (If you live in "dictator" ruled pakistan etc. ... I feel sorry for you. You can not do much as you do not have right to vote)

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by Ram Ram:

Is there any such thing as to learn from past mistakes in your democratic nation? I think first step is to admit that you made mistakes...You were wrong in using islamic fanatisism against communists in afgh....You are just a big talk using words democracy and freedom. You already sold your values for short term gain in cold war...I did not see a single post from an american ready to admit these mistakes.

You have a short memory, kid. Scroll up if you can't remember what you wrote. If that's not asking for an apology, I don't know what is.

Originally posted by Ram Ram:
All, I am saying is US DID support terrorists, dictators, fanatics and recist governments and did not show any interest in supporting democratic countries and cultures OUTSIDE USA. Though it pretends that it feels a lot for Kuwait. The fact is its feelings are limited to protecting control over oil resources of the world.

You only remember what suits your opinion. The U.S. led the effort lobbying for removal of the Berlin Wall; led the call for South Africa to strike down apartheid; offers thousands of civilians to monitor democratic elections in other countries; provides billions of dollars in aid to third world countries in the hopes of fostering democracy . The vast majority of funding and political effort to eradicate land mines as a means of warfare -- coming from right here, buddy boy.
We don't mandate democracy for the world. We spend a great deal of money trying to make it happen. If a despot in freedom-lover's clothing gets the better of us, then they do. If certain forces in the U.S. try to take advantage of the same situation, well surprise surprise. It's a big country with a lot of ideas -- not all of them are good.
I thought you weren't coming back "forever"?
What can't you keep that promise?

In fact I am citizen of a democratic country which is talking against international terrorism even before that concept was understood by anyone in western world. In fact my country was talking against terrorism when your country was supporting Bin Laden alikes to fight against communists.

Yes yes, we're all basking in the warmth and comfort of that talk today, aren't we? And I presume you're suggesting that it would have been better to stand by while Russia conducted its war in Afghanistan? Would it have been better to talk about it, while Afghani children were getting their hands blown off by the explosives Soviets disguised as toys and left in their streets?
Congratulations on being the first to talk about it, though. That's quite an achievement.
[This message has been edited by Michael Ernest (edited October 07, 2001).]

[Jason Menard]

Where are you from Ram Ram, India or Russia?

[Jeff Tveita]

Life cannot be boiled down to simple platitudes. The situation is far more complex than we realize. By attempting to simplify the reality we simply show our ignorance to the world scene as it really is.

[Mapraputa Is]

I noticed that tendency to simplify correlates with violent inclinations. Wonder what is a reason and what is a consequence...

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Sahir Shibley:

Ram,
Hey, I did not notice that part. I hereby retract my apology .
I know who has been feeding him information. Take a look at this.
http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_ID=211596665

Gee. All our grand plans for world domination are dashed. The cat is out of the bag. The Americans and the Taliban are on to us.
Map,
I am not sure if I will be able to appoint you as the Governor General for North America now. I hope you will bear your disappointment with equanimity .

... Good one Sahir.
India, Russia and Israel attacked WTC ... I cannot stop laughing at this theory by Bin Laden ... and he already found a believer in Michael Ernest.
Unfortunatly Michael, Jason, et. al. are from the US generation where knowledge of any international event used to start and end with equations like "if x=evil then x=communism or russia or kgb" and "freedom <==> america"
I wonder how an american and Bin Laden think alike ... ohh yeah I forgot they used to think alike during cold war ... so nothing new in that. Even today both love pakistan
btw Sahir, why dont you apologize again? I just like apology
[I deleted the speculation about deleted posts, as per request. - Jim]
And Michael will reply saying something like "grow up".
And jason will run his Jspellcheck on my post.
Because they do not have much logical to say about their government's support to dictators as mentioned in first post as we can clearly see the whole war is being faught with help of dictators and kings.
These people will keep fighting against India, China, Russia in this forum. Shutting Their eyes towards what stand is US government taking. And their government is so much used to short term simple solutions that it will take out one fundamentalist government in afgh. and bring another to rule the country. Or may be will support some dictator to rule afgh. and leave the country; assuring its own people that they have solved all the terrorist problems of the world.
That is so convenient I tell you. Democracy is good only for within US. Who cares for afghan people?
EZ short term solution: Just throw some nuts and food packets. That looks good when you are throwing bombs.
Besides if they support democracy, afghan woman will benefit from it and CNN will lose its favourit documentory topic ...

[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited October 08, 2001).]

[Jim Yingst]

FYI, most of Sunday's posts were lost due to technical problems - see the announcement here. I lost a number of posts myself; I'm not happy about it, but those are the breaks. It has nothing to do with just deleting your posts, Ram Ram - if we wanted to do that, there would be no need to bring down the rest of the Ranch at the same time.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
FYI, most of Sunday's posts were lost due to technical problems - see the announcement here. I lost a number of posts myself; I'm not happy about it, but those are the breaks. It has nothing to do with just deleting your posts, Ram Ram - if we wanted to do that, there would be no need to bring down the rest of the Ranch at the same time.

Jim,
My sincere apology.
I did not know this thing so there was major misunderstanding on my part. After knowing this, I would like to remove that part of my previous post but I can not edit it now . So, I would appreciate if you can take out that part from my previous post as I do not wish to offend/accuse someone when it was not his mistake.
In any case I take back that one accusn.
... However rest about democracy vs dictatorship stays

[Mapraputa Is]

Ha, our friend Ram Ram seems in a good mood today!

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
I lost a number of posts myself; I'm not happy about it, but those are the breaks.

Regarding this particular thread, I happened to save it as it was at 02:57 PM. So if everybody think we should restore this part of the discussion, we can. Frankly, I would not do that, because most of it consisted of deep theoretical investigations (from a formal point of view ) what Ram Ram really mean, or could possibly mean, or could impossibly mean, when he said this and that... We got a chance to re-write history and IMHO we should use it
Trying to make sense of Ram's last post...
About government's support to dictators, there was a poll on Russian TV. The question was "Is Russia (maiden name "the USSR" ) responsible for present international terrorism?" (well, indirectly responsible, I suppose) The result:
yes - 72%
no - 26%
I do not know (not sure) - 2%
I was pleased that my people can take responsibility. Last years we were so good at self-indulgence...
Of course, Ram Ram will say that bin Laden found a bunch of believers in Russia (believers in his statement that Russians destroyed WTC).

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Ram Ram:

And jason will run his Jspellcheck on my post.
Because they do not have much logical to say about their government's support to dictators as mentioned in first post as we can clearly see the whole war is being faught with help of dictators and kings.
These people will keep fighting against India, China, Russia in this forum.

I've never mentioned anything about anyone's spelling, so I'll assume this is yet another attempt by you to distort the facts. As for not having anything logical to say, I haven't said anything in response to any of your posts, as I have been pretty much ignoring you. If you didn't seem to be so deliberately inflamatory, while insisting on using an anonymous name, then maybe we could have some useful and civil discussions. Further, I have not said anything against India, Russia, or China, so again, this is you distorting the facts.

Posted by Ram Ram in another thread:
I am an indian myself. (Bit too proud as you may have noticed in other threads ) But I agree with you on this one. I had similar expr. twice. One indian company owes me salary of 2 months along with fine as per ruling by california labour comission. Another one cheated me during internship for one week's salary. Point to note that both company owners were US born east indians. Again no generalization. Just the facts.

Unless I am misinterpreting this, which is altogether possible, it seems like you may be a bit on the hypocritical side regarding your obvious hatred towards us. It seems that you worked here, and it looks like you may have even gone to school here. If I am correct, and as I said I may not be, then you felt the need to leave your own country in order to seek employment and education in the US. So we educated you and employed you but now you suddenly have issues with the US. Did something cause the termination of your employment here and that is why you are bitter? Or, and I hope not, are you still working here? If you were really all that concerned for your country you would have stayed there to begin with, and not given in to the alure of quick cash and good education to come over here. But as I said, I may simply be drawing the wrong conclusion from your post. I'm sure you will correct me where I am mistaken.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited October 08, 2001).]

[Andy Ceponis]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Unless I am misinterpreting this, which is altogether possible, it seems like you may be a bit on the hypocritical side regarding your obvious hatred towards us. It seems that you worked here, and it looks like you may have even gone to school here. If I am correct, and as I said I may not be, then you felt the need to leave your own country in order to seek employment and education in the US. So we educated you and employed you but now you suddenly have issues with the US. Did something cause the termination of your employment here and that is why you are bitter? Or, and I hope not, are you still working here? If you were really all that concerned for your country you would have stayed there to begin with, and not given in to the alure of quick cash and good education to come over here. But as I said, I may simply be drawing the wrong conclusion from your post. I'm sure you will correct me where I am mistaken.

I cant tell you how many times ive heard sentiments like this in the past few weeks. Myself included.

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I've never mentioned anything about anyone's spelling

Jason, I am afraid you became a charismatic figure here - a kind of spiritual leader of anti-non-american movement I also somehow connected "spelling weapon" with your name. Then I checked and it was Daniel Dunleavy:
"'US' are those who spell the word as civilization
'THEM' are those who spell it some other way"
- that's probably what Ram meant.
You started the "For the American bashers" thread, so your name was on a list of all threads = was read much more often than name of any person responded inside this or other threads at the same time. So whatever was said by other participants was ultimately attributed to you.
Something to think about for everybody who plans on starting new threads
P.S. To tell the truth, everything in this thread was written by Mapraputa to undermine David O'Meara's thesis that her comments are intellegent and well presented
------------------------------------------
Mapraputa Is, veteran of brownian movement
[This message has been edited by Mapraputa Is (edited October 08, 2001).]

[Jason Menard]

It would be silly of me to attack somebody else's spelling when mine is so poor.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
"Is Russia (maiden name "the USSR" ) responsible for present international terrorism?" (well, indirectly responsible, I suppose) The result:
yes - 72%
no - 26%
I do not know (not sure) - 2%

Mapraputa Is,
Are you saying that Russians attacked WTC?
If you take poll in afgh they ll say they did not and Bin Laden will also say the same
And I am still trying to understand this post..

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
"We're sorry we made you kill our own people, including several hundred foreign nationals who were also in those buildings?" Is that what you need to hear for you to heal?

Can someone apologize? I rather enjoy it very much. And you made me kill your people right?
If you take polls Pakistanis will say they are not ruled by dictator and they are not "Islamic state" and people from US will say that they supported democracy all over the world. Everyone is not as sincere as Russians
Jason,
are you there ?? or may be you are reading all the threads over last 100 years to see where my post is and then paste it here out of context. You seem to be really ignoring me
I do not see anyone saying "America NEVER supported Bin Laden" and "America NEVER supported dictators" or "America NEVER supported fanatics" in reply to my original post. The reason I started this thread is because you were claiming something to that effect in other threads. I never said US is ALWAYS wrong but you were claiming in other thread that it is/was ALWAYS right.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Ram Ram:
The reason I started this thread is because you were claiming something to that effect in other threads. I never said US is ALWAYS wrong but you were claiming in other thread that it is/was ALWAYS right.

No sorry you have misrepresented my statements... again. If I said that then please feel free to post the link to where I made such a comment.
And i believe that quote of yours I posted from another thread was made on October 08, 2001... not exactly 100 years ago. As far as being out of context, it was the first paragraph of your post I had quoted, so I think it speaks for itself.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited October 08, 2001).]

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Ram Ram de Unregistered:
Mapraputa Is,
Are you saying that Russians attacked WTC?

Well, I am afraid Russian Population is the only extremist group that claimed itself responsible for these actions, so...

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
"We're sorry we made you kill our own people, including several hundred foreign nationals who were also in those buildings?" Is that what you need to hear for you to heal?

Originally posted by Ram Ram de Unregistered:
Can someone apologize? I rather enjoy it very much. And you made me kill your people right?

I cannot help but quote Jim Yingst's brilliant post, which, unforunately, was lost because of yesterday's server crash.
Originally posted by Jim:
"...There is further confusion over the two uses of "you" in Michael's paragraph. The "you" in "you kill our own people" must refer to the terrorists - this is a hypothetical apology to them. The "you" in "you need to hear" must refer to Ram Ram. I don't think that Micheal intends to equate these two, since that would be pretty foolish. Note that the quotation marks in Michael's statement above put the hypothitical apology in a different context than the rest of the paragraph - "you" inside the quotes is not necessarily the same as "you" outside the quotes. But it's far from clear, and now Ram Ram thinks he's being identified as a terrorist. "
Hope this help.
Later correction....

Originally posted by Myself:
I cannot help but quote Jim Yingst's brilliant post, which, unforunately, was lost because of yesterday's server crash.

Err.. I mean a post was lost, not Jim. That would be too sad
-----------------------------------
Mapraputa Is
"I am a soldier in a quote war..."

[This message has been edited by Mapraputa Is (edited October 08, 2001).]

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Ram Ram:
Is there any such thing as to learn from past mistakes in your democratic nation? I think first step is to admit that you made mistakes. You were wrong in using islamic fanatisism against communists in afgh. Also, most of the 3rd word countries whom you support(ed) are/were ruled by some kind of Noriega, Zia-Ul-Haq or Musharraf or some King of Saudi or some islamic leader. You never bothered to support democracy or democratic movement in these countries.
I did not see a single post from an american ready to admit these mistakes

Ram, exactly how many Americans do you feel should admit these mistakes? Is one enough? Are you looking for a precedent or you will not be happy until the last American admit them? In case you will be satisfied with just one, here is an article (actually a reader's letter, which can IMO be considered "post" ) from my local newspaper "Eugene weekly", September 20.
"Why the hatred?
While the criminals who committed these acts must be apprehended and dealt with, I don't believe that this terrorist war can be ended by violent means. No amount of death or violence will discourage someone from suicide. Furthemore, every person we kill will leave friends and family who will hate us for generations to come.
What is absolutely necessary is for us to understand what it is about us that would inspire hundreds of people to blow themselves to bits, in order to inflict pain and suffering upon us.
Our greed for a rich economy and lifestyle, based on cheap Middle Eastern oil is the primary cause for such hatred. After WWI, we created the present states of that area, and installed puppet kingdoms and emirates to protect our assess to cheap petroleum. The only way those entities have ever been overthrown is by military coups.
We support undemocratic regimes (the kingdoms of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, the UAE, etc.) Where that isn't the case, military dictatorships rule.We have never supported democracy in the Middle East. Witness our military bases in Saudi Arabia (Bin Laden's chief complaint against us), protecting the SAudi dictatorship, which regularly beheads dissidents who strive for democracy.
This terrorism will continue until we are no longer stealing the wealth and the freedom of the people of the Middle East. This would mean drastic changes in our belief in our divine right to the majority of the wealth of the world."
Wayne Ford,
Eugene
Do you feel better?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
No sorry you have misrepresented my statements... again. If I said that then please feel free to post the link to where I made such a comment.
And i believe that quote of yours I posted from another thread was made on October 08, 2001... not exactly 100 years ago. As far as being out of context, it was the first paragraph of your post I had quoted, so I think it speaks for itself.
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited October 08, 2001).]

No sorry YOU have misrepresented my statements... again. Did you not see "something to that effect" in my statement?
Javaranch is not 100 years old so you must have understood what I wanted to say.
I can discuss that in that thread I do not understand your pasting it here. That was the point. Even that spelling thing was about not about spelling exactly but was about your post like meaning of "shrink it". If you wanted to ignore me why did you post something as meaningful as
"Anyone remember Shrinky Dinks? These decorations that you put in your oven and they shriveled up?
Or perhaps you're talking about "shrinkage"? *In best George Castanza voice* "Jerry, tell her about the shrinkage!""
I do not see what your posts had to do with the facts that US had supported Noriega to rule panama?
I do oppose many policies of US government. But I do not see where am I talking against principles of freedom and democracy or with "violent inclinations" Or any of my statements are supporting Bin Laden or terrorists? So why do you feel so agitated about it?
Yes, I do not agree with lots of things in US foraign policy. But that does not mean I hate US.
As for not disclosing my name I have seen posts like "Good that we have freedom of speech in our country(USA). Now we can see who hates us(or was that US ?? )." And have heard a lot about hate crimes. I know that 99% common people are not the type who will commit hate crimes. But in this volatile situation with emotionally charged people all around I dont want to take chances sitting alone miles away from my homeland. Not that I am afraid of you guys but they say "tumhari gali me tum sher" (you are kings of your roads) ...
Andy Ceponis,
What is hate? A man kills inocent sikh just because he looks like bin laden and while being arrested says "I am for america". I think that is hate.
If I raise that issue in forum will that be hate for america ? If that is your defn then as per that defn yes I do hate america.
Unfortunatly, typical american responce in this forum will be take this "I hate america" out of context and create picture that it is a fact.
My only expectation from your government is that it has waited too long to realise how evil terrorism is. Now it should not wait too long to realize that dictatorship and fanatisism are as evil as terrorism. Tolerating and helping it directly/indirectly can not only harm your people in long term but people all over the world. And I do have these concerns so I will keep posting untill I am convinced that your government is moving in right direction or am convinced that you are incorrigable.

[Anonymous]

After WWI, we created the present states of that area, and installed puppet kingdoms and emirates to protect our assess to cheap petroleum.

Err...<laugh>is it really assess or is it a typo for access?</laugh> ha ha ha!

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Do you feel better?

Yes lil bit
Thanks
how many ??
I would say more the better. (I am not seeking apology here as misunderstood by at least one).
In fact my country india did support LTTE in sri lanka. By the time it realized the mistake our formar PM Rajiv Gandhi was killed in sucide bomb attack.
I can never forget that day. Nothing irritates me more than people supporting terrorism and people involved in mass murder of inocent people. Pakistan still supports terrorism. And we can already see that its in deep shit. Except for the fact that its gonna get several million in aid from US.
Another reason to have so much antipathy against US includes use of second atomic bomb in japan. First one was bad but probably somehow justifiable. I could never understand the use of second bomb. It was a city not a military base. 100 thousand dead people in a split second. Is human life so cheap?
But anyways thats the past ... and I do not mean to compare and pretend that what happened at WTC is justifiable because of that as will be misunderstood by many.

[Anonymous]

Mapraputa Is,
Well, I dont have access to this post by Jim in your "repository" .
I would love to read it in full if you paste it. He may not necessarily support me. But he has done a good job as a sherif so far.(Also noticed it in another thread about disclosing ISP).
If Michael confirms that he meant what Jim is saying. I do not really mind "apologizing" ... and I will also accept his

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Excalibur:
Err...is it really assess or is it a typo for access? ha ha ha!

ha ha ha?
It a typo for "access". I already said in MO forum that I am going to apply for "written language pathology coordinator" position here, and my chances seem improving with every post of mine...
Ram,
I sent an E-mail to Jim asking him to respond to your desire to read his famous "Ram Ram's post demystified" work If he will not post it himself by tomorrow morning, I'll do it, and will probably edit his post a little... For him not to look so intelligent... Jim, do you hear me?
-----------------------------------
Mapraputa Is
"I am a soldier in a quote war..."