ultimatebb.cgi???????

[Prasanna Wamanacharya]

Hi,
Isn't it an oxymoron to always see the URI contain the above three letters(cgi) in a Web-site of die-hard Java fans?
I think that since the persons participating in this forum and its moderators know the advantages of Servlets/JSP over traditional CGI by-heart, the moderators should consider porting this forum and then the rest of our beloved Javaranch to the J2EE platform.
Waiting eagerly to see ultimatebb.jsp?
Prasanna.
SCJP2
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe.
-Abraham Lincoln
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Sai Patnala]

Good Question.
I would love to see it to be running completely on Java Technologies.
- Sai
SCJP2

[Ajith Kallambella]

Moving this thread to JavaRanch forum ....

[Cindy Glass]

Talked about this a zillion times in this forum.
Just scan through a few titles and you will run into many such conversations.

[Thomas Paul]

Basically it comes down to a lack of forum software for the J2EE platform. The reason is because so few ISPs support J2EE.

[Marcus Green]

Even if you have good JSP/J2EE support on your ISP there is about 1 serious offering (Jive). Whilst the Ranch could convert to Jive, and Jive is quite good, it would be vast, huge task that would break large amounts of things and cause intense frustration for an extended period.
I speak as an observer with background knowledge, I have no direct contact on the decisions on this one at JavaRanch.

Now if a whole bunch of people were to get together and create some cms/forum software.....

Marcus

[Chris May]

Most folks are aware of JIVE by now, and yes, it makes this site look rather dumb to have a CGI based BBS when the site is about JAVA. Of course, I'm not a huge fan of JIVE either. I've seen some of their code and it's not particularly elegant.
The fact of the matter is, however, this is a discussion forum for crying out loud. This isn't rocket science. I could write a decent forum in my sleep. Of course all those bells and whistles would take a little while, but how many people really use them anyway? Smilies and images and bolds and urls and fonts? C'mon. please.
Of course, if you wrote one in Java and it wasn't at least as good as UBB is in CGI, folks would point that out also....
Jive is probably a good bet if you want to start from a fairly advanced stage, though there is much baggage with JIVE. I will probably write my own when I get my site going eventually.

[Thomas Paul]

If you want to write a lousy forum that is impossible to maintain or upgrade then yes by all means just start coding but be prepared to throw away whatever you do. If you want to build a forum that is enhanceable and able to take advantage of new technologies as they develop then start planning. Since this product does exactly what we need, why would we waste our time coding something that we don't need? Just to prove a point? What point? That UBB could be written using JSPs? Wow! I bet everyone is really shocked.
Never wrote a book. Never taught a class. Just write code. Quick and dirty. Works for me. Why don't you put that on your resume and see how many jobs you get.
[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

[paul wheaton]

The key is: Why convert to jive when UBB is working fine? As cool as it would be to use a java forum, jive wasn't around when we started and moving to jive has risks. UBB is pretty solid.
As for developing stuff ourselves: it seems that the jive folks and the ubb folks are up to their eyeballs in adding stuff that we never even knew we wanted. When we upgrade, we automatically get that stuff. By going with pre-packaged stuff, we can focus more and answering people's questions about java instead of writing code for the ranch.

[Chris May]

Thomas, this forum is most certainly not a resume, and I have been continuously employed as a developer and project manager for the last 10 years.
My .sig is meant to express my disdain for folks who write books and teach classes, but never actually build anything that is in use in the real world. I have found that the world is full of such people. I've also found that the world is also full of people who prefer complexity to simplicity. But I digress.
This site does a good job of deflecting the criticism that comes when you stick your neck out as experts on a subject, mainly by using the non-technical "ranch" theme, and all the wonderful free training and tutorial offerings.
It does not, however fully eliminate the fact that the owner(s) of this site are claiming to be an authority on Java.
That an authority on Java cannot implement a simple discussion forum in java does not reflect well on that authority. This is a fact.
[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: Chris May ]

[Chris May]

Hi Paul, your comments raise the classic "build vs. buy" question. I agree that there are merits to buying into a package built and maintained by a dedicated staff.
I agree you will get their features assuming that you are able to upgrade seamlessly to their new versions. This assumes that the effort required to upgrade to their next version is less than the amount of effort to implement the same features in your custom version by hand. As a developer and project manager working on converting a custom Sybase/jsp CRM system to Oracle Portal and Oracle 11i CRM, I am acutely aware of the costs/benefits of both scenarios. What happens, however, when you need a feature that UBB doesn't offer? This is more often the situation for most serious applications. One ends up writing customizations and upgrading becomes even more complex.
I agree, UBB works, and I've looked at Jive, and honestly was not at all impressed with the implementation.
I'm quite convinced that people with the right skills can develop *any* reasonably simple application with dramatic speed and efficiency, and produce an elegant result.
The "quick and dirty" comment in my .sig is more an expression of my commitment to RAD than it is to writing bad code.
Minimal code, max elegance, max flexibility, max efficiency, max performance. I think all these things are possible.
My intention here was merely to ask the tough questions and hear your position. Thanks for your reply.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Chris May:
That an authority on Java cannot implement a simple discussion forum in java does not reflect well on that authority. This is a fact.

Really? You think because the volunteer Bartenders and Sheriffs opt not to spend thousands of man hours to code this forum in Java that somehow reflects poorly on their Java abilties? Well, most of us have a life outside of JavaRanch. Most of us have jobs and families and choose to spend our spare time here helping others learn Java, not coding a completely unneeded forum.
Just wondering, since java.sun.com didn't write their own forum, does that speak ill of their Java knowledge?

[Chris May]

"Implement" does not necessarily mean "write from scratch". Java.sun.com uses Jive.
Forget it. Use CGI. Enjoy. When I get around to implementing my site (I also have a day job) I'll write my own for fun because I enjoy writing Java and a forum seems trivial to me. I'm sure I'll find that it's not in the process but hey... live and learn.
I'm interested, if this site is run on such a voluntary basis, why all the advertising?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Chris May:
I'm interested, if this site is run on such a voluntary basis, why all the advertising?

Because the provider doesn't volunteer their web space. And how much advertising do you really see here as compared to any commercial site?

[Chris May]

I agree, your sponsers seem limited to your hosting provider, book publishers and amazon.com, but given that you accept advertising at all it's hard to say whether or not this is on purpose or simply what has fallen in your lap. It seems to me that you have an average of 2 ads per page. Your site certainly has a fairly academic feel to it. On the other hand, it's not consumer reports, so I don't think you can blame me for asking or assuming that you might make your living off of running this site. Perhaps two or three years ago, but probably not today.
Anyhow, nice site. I appreciate it.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Chris May:
I agree, your sponsers seem limited to your hosting provider, book publishers and amazon.com, but given that you accept advertising at all it's hard to say whether or not this is on purpose or simply what has fallen in your lap.

The books we advertise on the banners are for the giveaways. The publishers give us 4 books and an author for a week and we try to sell some books through amazon so that Paul's wife doesn't get too mad at him when the JavaRanch bill shows up.

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Chris May:
It does not, however fully eliminate the fact that the owner(s) of this site are claiming to be an authority on Java.

Nobody here is claiming to be an authority on anything The only thing that we state is that it is a friendly place for greenhorns to hang out and help each other. Some individuals state their credentials in their signature, but JavaRanch does not guarantee the validity of those claims.
Most of the responses given in this forum are by folks that are in no way associated with JavaRanch except as users. It is THEIR willingness to help that keeps this place going.
Please do not assume that because someone is a Bartender or Sheriff that they are automatically experts. They are just willing to help as best that they can, and they make mistakes just like everyone else.

[Thomas Paul]

Yeah, what Cindy said! If someone gives an answer that helps then great! If not, then sorry but maybe you had fun hanging out here anyway. All we are is a bunch of Java developers trying to help each other.

[paul wheaton]

Chris,
This might be a good time to tell us about your acts of generosity and good will. By reading your messages, my impression is that you are something of an authority on this topic.
I am clearly a greedy, ignorant, money grubbing bufoon when you are near. And this pitiful site is the best that myself and a few slack-jawed yokels could come up with. But by reading what you said, your contributions (my guess is an institute of finer learning) must be truly amazing.
I'm anxious to learn about your grand contributions to the betterment of the world and advancement of Java knowledge so I can model myself after you.
Oh, and that "advertising" I do: a banner swap with another java site; a banner for my host; promoting stuff within this site; and our "book of the week" thing. I have to apologize for my rudeness in promoting myself and those that claim to help this site. Before buying a domain name, I should have gotten a pile of money first so my visitors would not have to be brutally pounded by such shameless advertising. And instead of banner swaps, I should "do the right thing" and just buy banner space on other sites (helping those sites out) and run nothing here (it taints the purity).
I'm so glad you found our pathetic site and took the time from your busy philanthropic schedule to grace us with your vast knowledge and generosity.

[Dave Vick]

Originally posted by Chris May:

My .sig is meant to express my disdain for folks who write books and teach classes, but never actually build anything that is in use in the real world.

And I suppose you learned Java by sleeping in a magic toad-stool ring and just woke up and knew everything there was to know about Java?!
Some of the worst teachers I've had are the part- timers that only teach part time because they want it on their resume or they think it is cool or for some other reason. The professional, full-time, teachers generally are more prepared, have more experience anticipating and answering questions, and know how to teach instead of just reciting knowledge - there is a difference!! Yes, there are some outstanding part-time teachers and you can gain a wealth of knowldege fro them about real-world things and applcations but usually they are so centered in one area it hard to get a well rounded experience from them.
As far as authors go, from the few that I've read about and spoken to they don't do it for the money they do it because they have knowledge that they feel they can impart to other people in an informative and constructive manner. For the most part they succeed. I suppopse you never attended school and have no reference books on your desk, you just get all of your information by email from Mr Gosling and from the API's !?

[Marcus Green]

Chris said
Forget it. Use CGI. Enjoy. When I get around to implementing my site (I also have a day job) I'll write my own for fun because I enjoy writing Java and a forum seems trivial to me. I'm sure I'll find that it's not in the process but hey... live and learn.
Marcus responded
I think it has been well explained that it is not about chosing CGI and enjoying it, it is about using the tools available at the time and not making casual changes that would require huge amounts of work, with ill defined benefit.
Writing a trivial forum system will indeed be trivial, writing something that performs all the features you want from a a serious system is a huge undertaking. I write as someone who has been running discussion software since before the www was a twinkle in Mr Berners Lee's eye.

In his SIG Chris writes
Never wrote a book. Never taught a class. Just write code. Quick and dirty. Works for me.
In my experience quick and dirty programming is always dirty and in the long run never quick. The final tag "Works for me" is the give away, the art of good programming is not to "work for me" the hard bit is for it to work for programmers who do 80% of all coding, those that do maintenence work after you.

Marcus

[Thomas Paul]

I wish I could write a book but it is a tough challenge to have the discipline to write a quality technical book. I have taught lots of classes and I think my students have learned something. And I do code but I haven't "just coded" since I grew up and learned that coding is only a small part of providing usable applications to my end users. And none of my code is "quick and dirty". I write my code "quick and clean" so that the developers that follow behind me don't hunt me down and kill me. And it works for me but more importantly it works for the end users that have to use the software product that I produce. Because in the end, programming isn't about me. It's about providing a quality product to the people who pay my salary.

[Chris May]

I'm glad that my comments have sparked such commentary. I have gleaned much knowledge mostly from books, so I owe much to their authors. I have never taken a class in Java, but certainly studied much on the subject of programming in college, in the late eighties on Lotus Notes/domino, and in the last five years on Oracle and CRM applications. Most of my experience in training courses has been with instructors who were barely qualified to do the work, to say nothing of teach.
This is a dog-eat-dog world, and I harbor no resentment towards people who try to make a profit by any reasonably honest means. It bothers me however when people present themselves as charitable when they are in fact capitalist.
Most of what I learned in college ended up in the circular file (aka trash), and I spent most of college arguing with my instructors about how worthless most of what they were teaching me was. And it was mostly worthless. When was the last time you wrote in ADA, LISP or Smalltalk?
I personally own somewhere around 200 technical books published since 1999. I have great respect for people who write books, but I have greater respect for people who truly stick their necks out and build real systems for real companies doing real work.
Am I philanthropic? Not in the conventional sense. The quality of my work raises the bar of society's expectations of software. My philanthropy lies in my ability to increase the value of what programmers do in the eyes of the world. That is a far greater gift than any mere cash donation I could ever afford.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Chris May:
Am I philanthropic? Not in the conventional sense. The quality of my work raises the bar of society's expectations of software. My philanthropy lies in my ability to increase the value of what programmers do in the eyes of the world. That is a far greater gift than any mere cash donation I could ever afford.

ROFLMAO. I can't tell you how many times I've been told that people respect me as a programmer because of that "Chris May guy"!
As far as your college classes being a waste of time, I'll bet your professors say the same thing about the time they wasted trying to teach you something. :roll:

[paul wheaton]

Originally posted by Chris May:
Am I philanthropic? Not in the conventional sense. The quality of my work raises the bar of society's expectations of software. My philanthropy lies in my ability to increase the value of what programmers do in the eyes of the world. That is a far greater gift than any mere cash donation I could ever afford.

A true demonstration of humility. I feel so ashamed now for all of the bragging I've done for my miserable contributions to miserable projects.

[Marcus Green]

"It bothers me however when people present themselves as charitable when they are in fact capitalist."
Are you implying that despite the inability of virtually every other web site and .com outfit on the planet to turn HTML into gold Mr Wheaton is making a fortune out of JavaRanch. Capitalism can be a wonderful and creative force but it is not the motivation or sustaining force behind every creative effort, and philanthrophy is not the only alternative either.
Marcus

[Junilu Lacar]

Originally posted by Chris May:
I'm glad that my comments have sparked such commentary. (snip)
This is a dog-eat-dog world, and I harbor no resentment towards people who try to make a profit by any reasonably honest means. It bothers me however when people present themselves as charitable when they are in fact capitalist.

Chris, Chris, Chris....
With each reply, you just make more room to shove your foot further into your mouth.
Since it doesn't seem like you've caught on to it yet, here are some of the things we don't take too well at the Ranch:
1. Non-constructive criticism - This is our backyard and you've wandered into it. We like to be friendly to all new doggies but we don't like it much when they start posturing and try to mark our territory.
2. Blatant self-promotion - see "posturing" above.
3. Talk about money - If this site was in any way about making a buck, then it would have shut down ages ago. If you hang out here long enough though, you'll see that this site is about community rather than capitalism. Moderators are volunteers and any money that trickles in goes toward keeping the site online. This is a negative profit endeavor, at least financially. A lot of folks have profitted from it in other ways though.
So here's a friendly word to the new doggie in town (that's you, pardner ): Feel free to hit the bars and have a few rounds on us. You're welcome to stay as long as you like. Just remember to put the fecal matter in a bag before you come in and take it with you when you leave.
Junilu

[Chris May]

As far as your college classes being a waste of time, I'll bet your professors say the same thing about the time they wasted trying to teach you something.

College professors are another group that generally bug me. My Dad was one before he became a paper-pushing University administrator. There is nothing philanthropic about them. Most could care less whether or not their students learn a thing. They are in it for the check and summers off.

[Dave Vick]

Originally posted by Chris May:

...and I spent most of college arguing with my instructors about how worthless most of what they were teaching me was.

You are exactly the type of person that most teachers probably hated and but the other students loved. There is at least one in every class, you know him, the guy that is so stuck on themself that they know everything and just can't seem to shut the hell up about it. We've all had them in class and all secretly been thankful for the amusment they've provided in an otherwise too long class.
I say 'thankful to them', but at the same time sorry for them because they obviously don't have a clue that everyone thinks they are an ass and that other then a few moments of amusement all they are really good for is to make others glad that they are not like them.
So Chris, from all of us other students to you
Thanks for the amusment in class.

[Dave Vick]

I think its time this got moved to MD. Where it truely belongs now!!!

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Chris May:
College professors are another group that generally bug me. My Dad was one before he became a paper-pushing University administrator. There is nothing philanthropic about them. Most could care less whether or not their students learn a thing. They are in it for the check and summers off.

Now I understand. You had a severe Oedipus complex and now you hate all college professors. Don't worry too much. Spend some time with a psychologist and after 10 years or so you may be close enough to normal to be able to spend some time in decent human company. Until then better get to your software. I think the neighbors are starting to think less of us programmers.
:roll:

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Dave Vick:
I think its time this got moved to MD. Where it truely belongs now!!!

Yep! that is where it is going. My first move using my new sheriff powers.

[Chris May]

Classic. Rather than defend positions with rational arguments you all gang up and make personal attacks.
And as far as this site making any money. I'm sorry I ever considered it possible. Is this site broke because of the .com economy or because you all never intended for it to make any money? It seems you all don't know either. No wonder you're site is broke.
By the way, it's rather draconian of you to move this thread to "meaninglesss drivel" merely because it's critical. I don't expect much more from a Java site that won't even implement their forums in Java.
[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: Chris May ]

[Angela Poynton]

Actually I believe the thread was moved because subject of the conversation was no longer within the remit of the Javaranch Forum.
This site initially was started by Paul, who used his own money to buy the UBB software and pay for the hosting. For a while he ran it all by himself, with no advertising at all as far as I'm aware. Then as more people visited more people wanted to get involved, so people became bartenders and sheriffs. Not for money, or for any other reason than to contribute as much as they can to this community.
However, the site grew very big, we're a very popular place now and Paul had to find someone who could host the site a support the number of visitors we get. This obviously was going to get more costly, and so we have the little links to Amazon which really don't make much at all, some banner swaps which give us nothing but more publicity, and the occasional advertisement which gives us just enough to cover the hosting costs of the site. I'm fairly certain Paul still loses money on this site.
Ultimately this is Paul's site. He never made it with the intention to make a profit (and God knows there have been times when he could have used a good profit making venture) and he has always fought against letting this site "go commerical", that isn't the aim of this site.
All we really ask is that people are nice and friendly here. We can take criticism as long as it is constructive, we don't take too kindly to being accused of pretending to what we actually are.

[paul wheaton]

Gang up?
JavaRanch is visited by about a quarter of a million people every month. Only a person that has demonstrated extreme generosity and good will towards helping others learn java is offered the bartender apron. And very few of those make it to sheriff.
I like to think that so many people come here because of the overall friendliness and decency that is the core of the community of JavaRanch.
It seems to me that these kind folks seem pissed at you. If you look around, I think you will find that they aren't pissed at anybody else. If you check this thread, I think you will see that nobody is supporting you.
I think today is a good day to wake up and smell the coffee: seek professional help.

[Dave Vick]

I'll tell you what Chris, as soon a you make a rational argument instead of sweeping generalizations then I'll give you a rational answer.
Until then, the only thing I have to go on are the posts that you have made:
--That have accused all of us here of being liars, and just in it for the money.
--That have said that most college professors and authors should all go out and get real jobs and stop trying to teach. And apparently the reason you dont like them is because your dad was one once .
--Insinuated that we use our powers to protect ourselves, if we were doing that we would have deleted the entire thread (actually MD gets more traffic I think).
--Adopted a signature that most of the professional programmers here are bound to find offensive. Unless you really are stupid then you must have known that that would be the general reaction to your signature. So if you're not stupid then you are deliberatly insulting and derisive to our community.
I think I prefered you stupid.
-- The whole thing started with your comments on why we dont use java here to control the boards. We answered and explained why we didn't. You, apparently didn't think that that was a good enough answer and proceeded to tell us how wonderful of a programmer you were and that you could write quality board in your sleep probably quick and dirty too right?
If you want attention you dont have to be insulting to do it. Most people do it by trying to be friendly.

Dave
Now that I think of it moving this to MD might have been a defensive move on out part. There are some incredibly intelligent people that do quite a bit of posting here and will most likely make even larger holes in your arguments than those of us so far.

[Paul Stevens]

Thanks Thomas for moving this to my nice quiet corner of the ranch :roll:

[Jason Menard]

The "quick and dirty" comment in my .sig is more an expression of my commitment to RAD than it is to writing bad code.

Since RAD most frequently involves RAD tools which generate gobs of code themselves, isn't that statement contradictory? RAD tools are infamous for the lousy, hard to maintain code they spew out. I have frequent "discussions" with people I work with who are more than happy to point-and-click their way to application development, instead of doing a decent design and writing maintainable code. Just thought I'd ask.
As far as the UBB thing, I agree with the majority. I can't see the point in wasting time developing something like forum software when there are truckloads of it already available. So what if it doesn't use java? Most ISPs don't support servlets and even fewer support JSPs. The ones that do are often more expensive than the ones that don't.
Also, you are aware that not everybody puts up a web site with the aim of making money, right? You are aware that some people just simply enjoy this sort of thing? You know, a hobbie? This hobbie can get expensive though, so if there are ways the owner can find to offset some of the costs, it's only common sense that he might take advantage of them. Try cutting people some slack.

[Chris Cingrani]

Chris -
After reading this thread, I have an idea. In one of his posts Paul mentioned that this site is visited by a quarter of a million people a month. I can't think of a better place for you to spread some of your philanthropy than to JavaRanch. Since you have mentioned that you could write a Java based bulletin board, why don't you do it and give it to Paul as a replacement to UBB? I for one would be interested in learning something from you, as I'm sure would the rest of the ranch. Since you claim that:

"The quality of my work raises the bar of society's expectations of software. My philanthropy lies in my ability to increase the value of what programmers do in the eyes of the world. That is a far greater gift than any mere cash donation I could ever afford."

I say it's time to stop talking and start coding. Come back and show us what you can do, rather than continuing to pat yourself on the back.
[ April 03, 2002: Message edited by: Chris Cingrani ]

[Jason Menard]

but certainly studied much on the subject of programming in college, in the late eighties on Lotus Notes/domino, and in the last five years on Oracle

Does anyone else find it amusing that someone would demonstrate their authority on programming by citing experience with Lotus Notes/Domino and Oracle applications?

"The quality of my work raises the bar of society's expectations of software. My philanthropy lies in my ability to increase the value of what programmers do in the eyes of the world. That is a far greater gift than any mere cash donation I could ever afford."

That explains something. Just the other day someone on the street approached me to comment on my OO project I am working on. They told me that it wasn't bad, but it simply doesn't meet their expectations after experiencing the pure bliss that is a Chris May Oracle Forms application. Until now, I didn't know what that stranger meant. Hmm... come to think of it, maybe that also explains why those people who came collecting for charity looked so down when I wrote them a check. I think they thought a far greater gift would have been some of your software. :roll: