Win a copy of Securing DevOps this week in the Security forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic

Caesura  RSS feed

 
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
When syncope grows adult, it becomes caesura. When caesura grows adult, what is it?
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 4702
9
Java Scala
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
a stammer?
i had to look up both those words. still dont really see how


When syncope grows adult, it becomes caesura.

 
Desperado
Sheriff
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Main Entry: syn�co�pe
Pronunciation: 'si[ng]-k&-(")pE, 'sin-
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin, from Greek synkopE, literally,
cutting short, from synkoptein to cut short, from syn- +
koptein to cut -- more at CAPON
Date: circa 1550
1 : loss of consciousness resulting from insufficient blood
flow to the brain : FAINT
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5390
1
Java Spring
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have to see the dictionary.....
From where do you know so complex english words
OR
 
Randall Twede
Ranch Hand
Posts: 4702
9
Java Scala
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
it's not that they are complex words, it's that they are very infrequently used words
 
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff
Posts: 7292
Netbeans IDE VI Editor
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Mmm, a scale of pauses. Here's a q & d guess list:
syncope
caesura
break
interruption
intermission
interregnum
 
Wanderer
Sheriff
Posts: 18671
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm still in agreement with Randall's first post. At least using literal definitions, syncope and caesura seem like apples and oranges. A syncope doesn't seem to be a pause at all - rather it's the omission of sounds without a pause. I don't see how one can sensibly assert that a syncope might somehow become a caesura. Though I may well be unaware of some of the subtleties of the definitions, as poetry is not really a field I've paid any attention to. But I'm thinking that if there's any solution to Map's question, it would most likely come from some non-literal interpretation rather than the standard definitions.
I note that both words come from roots meaning "cut", and to the extent that Latin is a successor to Greek, caesura is a sort of evolution of syncope. This is far from satisfying as an interpretation. But barring further hints or refinements of the problem statement, I'm not really inclined to dig any further for now.
 
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff
Posts: 7292
Netbeans IDE VI Editor
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That's a very...uh, taxonomic? reading. One would think you learned your English in a French school and your rhetoric from three years of Latin taught by a Jesuit priest.
To speak closer to the bone, these are not so much literal readings of the words are they are cuffed by denotative ("dictionary interpretation") value. To the degree that the speaker simply wants to find terms to suggest a break, syncope may be archaic or obscure use, but I would not call it an orthogonal misuse.
If, however, you hold the speaker to a standard of precision appropriate to their discourse -- a thesis presentation, say, as opposed to a crossword puzzle where in some cases damn near anything goes -- it's usually with the expectation that speaker and audience agree to precision for some advantage: clarity, subtlety, narrow scope, etc.
The problem with 'literal' analysis is that it's not a particularly English language quality. Many important academic papers in the sciences are translated to Latin for just this reason: it's a 'dead' language and so good for archival, yes, but more importantly it's really precise.
Among modern languages, French is closest to this quality -- it's like those people have a different word for everything. Not just different words from English, but words different from each other. The selection of nouns conveys subtleties in French the English don't often rely on. Then again, French is a more 'logical' culture.
[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
All I wanted to know was why Michael doesn't answer my E-mails for three hours already, if he doesn't love me any more or what? I wasn't sure if there are any problems with his E-mail so I asked here. Now he explained that he's been playing poker with Patrick since July 4th, so I am no more perplexed.
For English connoisseurs: how about if we define syncope as a pause with length = 0? Then caesura will be a prolonged syncope That should satisfy you And they both belong to musical parlance as much as (if not more) than to domain of prosody
[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
mister krabs
Ranch Hand
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
For English connoisseurs: how about if we define syncope as a pause with length = 0?

As a person who suffers from vasovagal syncope, I can assure you that the pause of a syncope is longer than zero.
 
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff
Posts: 7292
Netbeans IDE VI Editor
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Now he explained that he's been playing poker with Patrick since July 4th, so I am no more perplexed.


Not poker, you goof, Age of Empires. Networked, even. Poker with a seven year old? He's bright, but not practiced at evil thinking just yet. Ruthlessness among our kind has to be acquired by experience.

For English connoisseurs: how about if we define syncope as a pause with length = 0? Then caesura will be a prolonged syncope That should satisfy you And they both belong to musical parlance as much as (if not more) than to domain of prosody

This will not do. It's one thing to expect slippage of a term in casual conversation, it's quite another to ignore denotation. Jim is right in his definition, all things considered; my only regard for the appropriateness of his application.
Geez, you go off for a couple days of geek computer time, you get Russian barbarians banging away at our Lexical Gate. Relentless people.
 
Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Sheriff
Posts: 10065
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
This will not do.


Michael, you missed meta-point of the following sentence: "That should satisfy you". "You" here doesn't mean "Michael Ernest", neither does it mean "you, reader" in any generic sense, rather it means two particular English connoisseurs who doubt that the pause of a syncope is longer than zero -- those I am sending to read Thomas Paul post -- those whose only guide in life is formal definition rather than personal experience, an inner feeling, an intuition -- those should be made happy by simple re-definition trick
Well, on a more serious note, I was surprised that apparently here "syncope" is used mostly in medical sense - first two pages Google gave me when I was searching for examples of usage were medical. In my barbarian country it's a musical term I never heard it in any other sense. I acquired it when I learnt to play guitar. To easy our learning we had to sing a melody, and I don't know about you, but for me there is a pause in a syncope, otherwise there would be continuous, uninterrupted, unbroken melody. This is a very short pause, of course, almost non-existent, but this moment of emptiness between a death of an old melody and birth of new, is too important for me for personal reasons I an not authorized to discover.
Caesura, unlike syncope, was learnt by me here, on foreign soil, but then, I got it from reading article in Russian and only looked up the dictionary for translation.
That both can be used as musical terms is proved by these googlisms:
"Syncope: a fainting, a musical disruption, an elision."
"Caesura Music. A pause or breathing at a point of rhythmic division in a melody."
I should admit that I was more interested in stretching concepts out of their limits rather than in using them in precise sense and obedience to formal definitions. I didn't mean to imply that a concept of "caesura" is a logical derivation from "syncope" and I hoped that my "grows adult" goofiness will prevent from reading my post in any formal sense. Sigh.
Not poker, you goof, Age of Empires.
I wanted to make you laugh!
[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
whippersnapper
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1842
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
In my barbarian country it's a musical term...


Sure you're not thinking of English "syncopation" (not "syncope")?
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 664
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think Map was talking about syncopation (music), not syncope (grammar, pathology). I learned that too while playing guitar, I guess in my barbaric country everyone plays guitar (as well as drinks vodka and speaks English) Michael seems to handle barbaric invasion very well though, in worst case he could run for cover and ask for Java-powered air support...
That, and this reminded me of interesting analogy, between white and black blues (the inventors of blues will turn in graves for my speaches full of diletantism). Think about how you would clap to a song with rythm 1-2 1-2 1-2 1-2. White folks would put accent on ones (1). The blacks (no distinction between Africans, African-Americans or Islanders here, so I use generic word, take no offence) would clap on second tone. If you extrapolate this, you'll get Bob Marley and Christina Aguilera. And, notably, Bob's music is full of syncopations. Think about how you breathe, and then how his music "breathes".
Caesura has a long way to go to become syncopation.
Shura
 
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Not to get too far off topic... but Bob Marley is reggae, not blues. We can debate the blues influence on reggae if you'd like, but one difference is the rhythms used. I believe regge has more of a carribean influence than blues. Reggae rhythms do often emphasize the upbeat moreso than straight blues. (If you were counting eigths in 4/4 time, you might say something like "one-and-two-and-three-and-four-and", while lowering your foot on the numeric counts and raising your foor on the "and"s. The upbeats are on the word "and".)
I would point to The Police as an example of a band that seems to take quite a bit from both reggae and the blues. In any case, I think we can both agree that Bob Marley is quite awesome.
[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff
Posts: 18671
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That's a very...uh, taxonomic? reading.
Well, such is my nature, after all. Moreso in this case bacause I had no other familiarity with either word; I had just been forced to look them up, and so the actual definitions were strongly in mind. (And when Tony quoted one again, I examined it further to see if there was some element I was missing, since the point remained elusive. That's when I noted the Greek-Latin connection.) I acknowledged that there might well be other less literal interpretations, but since the original post was lacking in context I didn't see much incentive to pursue them.
For English connoisseurs: how about if we define syncope as a pause with length = 0? Then caesura will be a prolonged syncope That should satisfy you
A pause of length 0? That seems like a null op. However a syncope (grammatical definition, not pathological) could be viewed as a pause of negative length. Rather than delaying a given sound, we skip past it.
When syncope grows adult, it becomes caesura.
Hmmm... in this interpretation, a caesura is closer to the opposite of a syncope. Sounds more like a rebellious teenager to me.
 
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff
Posts: 7292
Netbeans IDE VI Editor
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In reggae the normal term is definitely "backbeat." This term is leveraged to describe a critical rhythm paradigm that, while orthogonal to upbeats and downbeats, effectively provisions Western tonal structures in a robust, scalable way. Basically, dance rhythms that are indigenous to the Caribbean have combined with tangential elements of popular Western musical styles to create a form.
To say the form is orientated for wide appeal would be an understatement. It's popularity is definitely nucular, but that's a mute point.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Although Michael's post is quite funny, one concept really hit my funny bone. The concept that:
Music is scalable!
As a father who has to fight every day to get his little girl to practice her scales, this seemed so true!
 
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff
Posts: 18671
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
An impressive collection, Michael. All that and "it's" too.
 
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
Sheriff
Posts: 7292
Netbeans IDE VI Editor
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
What makes my day is someone noticed that touch.
 
Michael Matola
whippersnapper
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1842
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
But you missed an opportunity:
What makes my day is, is that someone noticed that touch.
 
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thomas. FWIW and in the subject of trying to make your kids practice music...
I have what I consider an interesting story. Of course one has to have in mind the timeframe in which it occurred, but if we group the anecdote under the subject that you want your children to practice an instrument when they don't want to... maybe we can find some common ground.
It was early 1962 when my father told me (and his word was God's in those days) that I should start accordion lessons. His order was not based on "empty space" since everywhere I went as a kid I could get some intelligible music out a toy piano or even a bigger one. For me that was normal but the psychologist living next to us told my father that I SHOULD take music lessons.
So that was it! I had to take them for about two years. I was not allowed to opine on the subject.
Two years later when I finally LEFT the music lessons, the Beatles came into the universe of popular music, which I loved, and I was ABLE to learn all their songs from music books BECAUSE of my accordion training!
My friends could not believe the speed at which I would learn their songs. It was all familiar to me in terms of the CHORDS. Everything was so simple. All the relationships between the chords made all sense to me. Before, I hated playing POLKAS and other meaningless (to me) stuff.
I had three or four great years (as a teen!) of playing in a rock band in the 1960s.
And all because "my father said so"!
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Ranch Hand
Posts: 13974
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks, Tony! I keep telling my daughter, "Some day you will thank me for this!"
 
Jim Yingst
Wanderer
Sheriff
Posts: 18671
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
And if she still doesn't appreciate it, you can always point out that at least you're not making her learn the accordion.
 
Shura Balaganov
Ranch Hand
Posts: 664
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Michael, Jason,
Thats exactly what I was trying to say except I didn't have enough English words to express it, just like that dog who seems to understand everything but never talks...
Woof-woof!
Apparently, my Map 1.6 Russian-English translation driver is very poorly written...
Michael, with tongue like this, it seems to me you shouldn't have had any problems finding dates in college
Shura
[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]
 
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Sheriff
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes Jim! Absolutely. The accordion "sucks" IMHO.
That's why I ask that no one repeats that I studied it! Ha ha!
The piano is a much more elegant instrument... and more expensive. That's the reason I had to take accordion lessons.
But as you may guess, the musical theory is the same; I mean the relationships between chords is the same so that's what helped me...
 
Consider Paul's rocket mass heater.
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!