Culture Clash

[Thomas Paul]

I was watching the testimony of the Secretary of Defense and the Chief of Staff before a congressional committee yesterday (it was on C-Span yeasterday but I'm not sure when they testified). They were talking about the air attack on the wedding party in Afghanistan. Apparently, the cockpit videotape shows that tracer bullets from the ground did come near the plane. The pilot assumed this was an attack. But it may have been the wedding party showing their exuberance and firing their guns into the air. In other words, it was most likely a tragic mistake.

[Michael Ernest]

Tracer bullets from enthusiastic wedding-goers?

[Jason Menard]

Not saying that this was the case, however this seems slightly similar to a situation that happened when I was in Bosnia. We were told ahead of time to be careful on the upcoming Orthodox Christmas. It seems the Serbs liked to celebrate the birth of the King of Peace with small arms fire. Come dark, sure enough, the night air came alive with the sound of weapons fire. It was mostly relatively small caliber stuff, including some autmotatic weapons, but also some larger stuff, possibly AAA. In their fits of jubilation, they also chose to direct their celebrations on a bit more of a horizontal trajectory, towards our base. No one was hurt, but we definitely weren't sharing their festive spirit.
I believe the aircraft in question was an AC-130, which flies pretty slow. I suppose it is definitely possible that some may have chosen to "celebrate" towards the aircraft, whether by accident or by design. Either way the result was tragic.

[Anthony Goshaunee]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Not saying that this was the case, however this seems slightly similar to a situation that happened when I was in Bosnia. We were told ahead of time to be careful on the upcoming Orthodox Christmas. It seems the Serbs liked to celebrate the birth of the King of Peace with small arms fire. Come dark, sure enough, the night air came alive with the sound of weapons fire. It was mostly relatively small caliber stuff, including some autmotatic weapons, but also some larger stuff, possibly AAA. In their fits of jubilation, they also chose to direct their celebrations on a bit more of a horizontal trajectory, towards our base. No one was hurt, but we definitely weren't sharing their festive spirit.
I believe the aircraft in question was an AC-130, which flies pretty slow. I suppose it is definitely possible that some may have chosen to "celebrate" towards the aircraft, whether by accident or by design. Either way the result was tragic.

Jason, please tell me exactly what you mean by, "I suppose it is definitely possible that some may have chosen to 'celebrate' towards the aircraft, whether by accident or by design." I hope you do not mean to imply that the people at the party intentionally shot at the plane. To me, this particular incident was obviously a tragic mistake on the part of the pilot who dropped the bomb on the innocent party goers.
Perhaps I just misunderstood you, but I do not think there was any credible evidence that the plane was being shot at on purpose. If there was, please let me know where I can read up on this, because I must have missed it. If there was no such evidence, and this is simply a theory or possibility that you came up with, I really do not see the point of saying such a thing.
Again, perhaps I completely misunderstood your post.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Anthony Goshaunee:
Perhaps I just misunderstood you, but I do not think there was any credible evidence that the plane was being shot at on purpose.

The Chief of Staff said it is possible that there were people either with the group or near the group who were deliberately shooting at the aircraft. His comments about "celebration gunfire" was only a possibility. There was no doubt that the plane was fired at either deliberately or accidentally.

[Jason Menard]

No, I think you understood me.
Let's think about this... The area was sympathetic to the Taliban, we have a group of people with loaded weapons, we have a slow flying aircraft flown by people who were likely seen as the enemy, being strict religious folk I'm certain there was no alcohol at this party... hmmm... You are right. I can't picture any conceivable scenario that would have them, or people nearby them, firing towards the aircraft "on purpose". My appologies.
Just out of curiousity though.... what kind of evidence would differentiate between an aircraft that is being shot at, and an aircraft that is being shot at "on purpose"?

[Anonymous]

Does this justify a bomb being dropped on them. Assuming the pilot is telling the truth, shouldnt he atleast think before dropping a bomb which would kill scores of civilians below.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <slacker>:
Does this justify a bomb being dropped on them. Assuming the pilot is telling the truth, shouldnt he atleast think before dropping a bomb which would kill scores of civilians below.

And what makes you think he didn't think before dropping a bomb? Should he have waited until he was shot down before dropping a bomb?

[Jason Menard]

Here's a question you might answer...
Looking down from the air, what is the apparent difference between a group of wedding goers who appear to be shooting at you, and a group of armed men of hostile intent apparently shooting at you?
Let's assume we've got IR cameras looking down on the target (which AC-130's do have btw)... What is the difference in IR signatures between a bunch of wedding guests with automatic rifles, and the IR signature of armed Taliban with automatic rifles?

[Anthony Goshaunee]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
No, I think you understood me.
Let's think about this... The area was sympathetic to the Taliban, we have a group of people with loaded weapons, we have a slow flying aircraft flown by people who were likely seen as the enemy, being strict religious folk I'm certain there was no alcohol at this party... hmmm... You are right. I can't picture any conceivable scenario that would have them, or people nearby them, firing towards the aircraft "on purpose". My appologies.
Just out of curiousity though.... what kind of evidence would differentiate between an aircraft that is being shot at, and an aircraft that is being shot at "on purpose"?

To the pilot, there would be no difference. But I just did not see the point of bringing up that it may have been on purpose. I will agree that the pilot did not know the difference and that it was nothing but a mistake.
It just seemed like your post was saying, yes it was a tragedy, and then for no reason, you brought up a scenario that there has been no evidence for, that maybe the plane was being shot at. I was just confused as to why you would bring such a point up. That's all. No foul.

[Anthony Goshaunee]

Oh, I didnt answer you question
I just would find it hard to imagine that a group of Afghans for "celebration" shoot at American planes. I hope that is not what you think. That is all I am saying.
Implying that perhaps they shot at the plane on purpose, said (to me at least) that you were implying that Afghans at a party began to shoot at American planes. I have been to Iran, and I do not know if you are aware, but the culture is very similar. Infact their language is Farsi, and is even more close to original Persian language.
Anyway, I can assure you that it is not Afghan culture to shoot at planes.

[Anonymous]

{Anti-American propaganda!?}
If by asking questions, I become anti -American ...I dont know what to say.It is very easy to label somebody anti-american or a terrorist lover, to discredit him.That is why I tried to avoid mentioning countries or groups.
If you had noticed, I never started any of these arguments. I just tried to provide an opposing viewpoint.
If you find my views stupid or silly , feel free to ignore me. Just use the scroll button.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Anthony Goshaunee:
I just would find it hard to imagine that a group of Afghans for "celebration" shoot at American planes. I hope that is not what you think. That is all I am saying.

You might find it hard to imagine that. I however do not find it hard to imagine, and I have related to you anecdotally why I do not find it hard to imagine.

Implying that perhaps they shot at the plane on purpose, said (to me at least) that you were implying that Afghans at a party began to shoot at American planes.

I see it as one of many possibilities.

I have been to Iran, and I do not know if you are aware, but the culture is very similar. Infact their language is Farsi, and is even more close to original Persian language.

The culture is similar to Iran in parts of Afghanistan. Several languages are spoken in Afghanistan, including Dari (aka Afghan Persian, probably similar to Farsi), Pashtu, Uzbek, Turkmen, and about 30-40 other languages.

Anyway, I can assure you that it is not Afghan culture to shoot at planes.

While it may not be... Someone shot at the plane. And it seems to be very much in Afghan culture to shoot all kinds of things, or maybe there hasn't been tribally motivated warfare going on there for who knows how long.

[Anthony Goshaunee]

"While it may not be... Someone shot at the plane. And it seems to be very much in Afghan culture to shoot all kinds of things, or maybe there hasn't been tribally motivated warfare going on there for who knows how long."
Ok, you are going to have to explain this.
It seems to me, without any evidence, you have decided that the Afghans like to shoot things. Perhaps no evidence exists either way, but because you think that "it is Afghan culture to shoot all kinds of things," you brought this up.
I do not care what your idea of Afghan culture is. It is a war torn region, but Afghan people celebrating a wedding do not try to shoot things.
You may be suprised to find that people all over the world are more the same then you may think. Weddings, most of the time, in any culture are a happy time.
Just out of curiousity, have you ever been outside of the US? If so where have you gone? If not, are you interested in visiting any other country?

[Anonymous]

Anthony, some people here make some sweeping judgements about other cultures, but when you question a civilian bombing, you are accused of indulging in propoganda.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Anthony Goshaunee:
It seems to me, without any evidence, you have decided that the Afghans like to shoot things.

Evidence? You means aside from a long history of tribal warfare? You are aware we are in a war over there right? And that there are people shooting at each other? And that the vast majority of them are Afghans? And that as a result of this long history of warfare a good percentage of the population is armed?

I do not care what your idea of Afghan culture is. It is a war torn region, but Afghan people celebrating a wedding do not try to shoot things.

What is indisputable is that it is apparently a custom to shoot weapons into the air at Afghan weddings. People actually celebrate with gunfire in many parts of the world. What is also indisputable is that planes flying around do so "in the air". It is far from inconceivable that plane in air meets bullets fired into air. Was this on purpose? I don't know. How would I know? How would you know? None of us were there. The only mostly objective evidence would appear to be the gun camera footage, which none of us have seen, and fewer of us would likely be able to interpret anyway.

You may be suprised to find that people all over the world are more the same then you may think. Weddings, most of the time, in any culture are a happy time.

Obviously you have never been married.

Just out of curiousity, have you ever been outside of the US? If so where have you gone? If not, are you interested in visiting any other country?

You did read my earlier post right? The one where I talked about Orthodox Christmas in Bosnia? I mean, you responded to it. But since you asked.... I lived in England for 3 yrs, Japan for 3 yrs, spent 6 mos in Turkey, 3 mos in Bosnia, 3 mos in Germany, and have otherwise been to Mexico, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Ireland, and Hungary.
It's always nice to try to play the ignorant and sheltered American card on one of us though.
[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Lalooprasad Yadav]

Being drunk is not an excuse for firing at aircraft. I hereby forbid all Afghans from drinking vodka. Wedding or no wedding. I suspect the russians are guilty here. They must have been supplying vodka to the afghans.

[Jason Menard]

Honestly people. None of us has any idea what happened there. How anybody can make blanket statements such that this plane could not possibly have been fired on by people at a wedding with guns, without considering some such possible scenario no matter how remote, just boggles the mind.
All I am doing is floating possible scenarios for how this incident may have occured. I do not dismiss any scenario out of hand.

[Anonymous]

{Being drunk is not an excuse for firing at aircraft. I hereby forbid all Afghans from drinking vodka. Wedding or no wedding. I suspect the russians are guilty here. They must have been supplying vodka to the afghans.
}
Let me drink to that. Drinking and firing / Drinking and flying should be banned. AMEN

[Anonymous]

By the way , dont any of you guys sleep

[Jim Yingst]

Ahem. I just deleted several attempts at humor which might have been appropriate elsewhere in MD, but I think this thread has enough to deal with without joking about other posters' past mistakes, or pretending nationalistic outrage where none is warranted. Yes, I know they were jokes; I laughed; others would not. You might have noticed that not everyone's in the most humorous of moods - joking at their expense won't help that. Don't put fuel on the fire. We're trying to move on here, people. Thank you.
(And note that some of the removed posts weren't at anyone's expense, but they didn't make sense without the earlier posts, so...)
[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Anthony Villanueva]

Heh...
For a moment there I thought I travelled back in time or something...
"We control the horizontal, we control the vertical..."
(uhhh, must sleeeep)
[ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: Anthony Villanueva ]

[Anthony Goshaunee]

Originally posted by <slacker>:
Anthony, some people here make some sweeping judgements about other cultures, but when you question a civilian bombing, you are accused of indulging in propoganda.

Very true...

[Anthony Goshaunee]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Honestly people. None of us has any idea what happened there. How anybody can make blanket statements such that this plane could not possibly have been fired on by people at a wedding with guns, without considering some such possible scenario no matter how remote, just boggles the mind.
All I am doing is floating possible scenarios for how this incident may have occured. I do not dismiss any scenario out of hand.

It is true that none of us were there, and you "floating possible scenarios for how the incident occured" is pointless, because you do not know what happened. Perhaps you would see something wrong with this statement: "Perhaps the American pilot knew that the firing was from civilians, and we know how American's do not care for people of other countries, so there is a possibility that perhaps he dropped the bomb on them on purpose to kill innocent civilians. I mean none of us know what was in his head."
Maybe you can see something wrong with that statement. I'm just "floating possible scenarios." No one can be SURE that he infact did not know it was civilian fire and dropped the bomb anyway because he wanted to see some Afghans pay for September 11th. Hey, I'm not saying it happened, I'm just "floating possible scenarios"

[Anthony Goshaunee]

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Tomorrow it is off to Mexico for a weekend of drinking and relaxation.
Jason, you claimed to have gone to Mexico. Is "firing at things" part of their culture too?
You have concluded that it is part of Afghan culture to shoot things.
Quote supporting claim: "And it seems to be very much in Afghan culture to shoot all kinds of things" (Jason).
I wonder what your conclusions are about the Mexican culture.

[Anthony Goshaunee]

I was thinking, Jason has his little quote that says,
"A pair of wet lips was whispering into my ears. "Can I whisper into your ears?" -- Johnson Chong"
on the bottom of his posts. I was thinking I could use his quote that says,
"And it seems to be very much in Afghan culture to shoot all kinds of things" (Jason).
on the bottom of all my posts. Of course, I would not do such a thing without his permission. Jason, can I use that quote?
I guess I'll have to wait for the answer when I get back from the weekend.
Have a great weekend everyone, even if you do hate me!

[Jason Menard]

Unable to generate any intelligent debate of substance, you frequently show a propensity to become fixated on particular isolated offhand comments made by posters.
You did this the first time when Tony made an offhand comment about a barbeque. Another time was when Thomas mentioned about a British use of American Indians during our revolution. And now you are fixated on a sarcastic comment of mine made in response to an idiotic statement.
You said: "Anyway, I can assure you that it is not Afghan culture to shoot at planes."
My sarcastic response was simply pointing out that there is a lot of fighting over there, regardless of what you or I think their cultural views are, which are actually irrelevant to the discussion anyway. If you choose to fixate on that as your latest target of your outrage, so be it.
You have not really demonstrated in any of these threads that you are particularly knowledgeable about anything concerning any of these issues that have been raised. Everybody has opinions, but you know what they say about those. Many good points have been raised by others and many intelligent questions posed, and when it becomes apparent that you cannot keep up with the conversation, invariably you try to focus attention on one of the other posters.
If you have something interesting to contribute, based on something outside of some lopsided opinion of yours that has no basis in fact, education, or experience, then by all means share it with us. On the other hand, if your chief tactic is merely to annoy and be pointlessly argumentative, I don't expect too many here appreciate it, outside of its limited entertainment value. At least be able to intelligently justify your own position without trying to make things personal when you are unable to. Regardless of what you may think, it's been my experience that most of us here are fairly broad minded.

[Thomas Paul]

Anthony, since you seem to think Americans are so narrow minded and parochial perhaps a list of the countries you have visited and the amount of time you have spent in them would be in order here.

[Stu Glassman]

"I suppose it is definitely possible that some may have chosen to "celebrate" towards the aircraft, whether by accident or by design." - Jason Menard
Imagine two boys playing catch with a ball (yes, this is relevant). One throw nearly hits a bird. The boys think to themselves, "Cool! I wonder if we could actually hit the bird!" Therefore, out of simple curiousity (with a smattering of stupidity) they attempt to hit the bird with their ball.
Similarly, the wedding-goers could have noticed the airplane and just shot at it for fun. You could even place bets on who could get closer to the airplane!
Honestly, if someone is shooting at me, even if the person is too young to walk, I'd be inclined toward shooting back.
-Stu
-------------------------------------------------
"I wish I had a cool quote"

[Anthony Goshaunee]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Unable to generate any intelligent debate of substance, you frequently show a propensity to become fixated on particular isolated offhand comments made by posters.

Perhaps you should avoid bigoted and racially prejudiced "offhand comments". I think you realized that you were wrong, and instead of admit it, you let it go too far, and now all you can do is post and angry response to me. What an intelligent debater you are indeed, Jason!
"You did this the first time when Tony made an offhand comment about a barbeque."
I'm not sure I know what you are talking about. Please explain.
"And now you are fixated on a sarcastic comment of mine made in response to an idiotic statement."
I think you are the one that made the idiotic statement, and you are now angry that I brought it to the attention of everyone here how exactly you think.
"My sarcastic response was simply pointing out that there is a lot of fighting over there, regardless of what you or I think their cultural views are, which are actually irrelevant to the discussion anyway. If you choose to fixate on that as your latest target of your outrage, so be it."
I do not choose to be fixated on this, as long as you dont lie. You specifically said it was their culture to shoot at things. Do I need to post it again? If you say you were wrong to say such a thing this whole thing would be over. Futhermore, such views ARE VERY RELEVANT. They provide an explanation and pattern for many of your other views.

"If you have something interesting to contribute, based on something outside of some lopsided opinion of yours that has no basis in fact, education, or experience, then by all means share it with us."
Like your comment? Very educated, Jason.
"At least be able to intelligently justify your own position without trying to make things personal when you are unable to."
I did not take anything personal. I merely asked you to explain a statement that I found to be close minded, and you took that personal.
"Regardless of what you may think, it's been my experience that most of us here are fairly broad minded."
No, no, I too have found that most of us here are fairly broad minded.
Perhaps you should relax next time you have a fit of rage instead of posting an angry response trying justify a comment you made jokingly (I assume, since you refuse to clarify it) and have decided to defend.

[Anthony Goshaunee]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Anthony, since you seem to think Americans are so narrow minded and parochial perhaps a list of the countries you have visited and the amount of time you have spent in them would be in order here.

Thomas, I do not think Americans are narrow minded. Perhaps you got that idea from what I said in response to Jason's post. It seems like Jason might not know why anyone would find the statement he made offensive, but I provided a very similar statement about Americans, so that perhaps he could see why someone may find such a comment offensive. You are mistaken if you think that that is my view.
I have said that I have found Europeans more open minded. I think it is wrong to put it that way, and I will be the first to admit that. It is my view that Europeans are better informed than Americans. I think their media is less biased then America.
Please let me know anything else that I have said that has made you come to the conclusion that I think Americans are narrow minded, and I will clear up any further misunderstandings.
I live in America. I have been to Mexico many times. Infact, just got back today . I have been to Canada. I have gone and spent a couple months in Germany, France, and Holland. I have been to Germany several times. I have spent serval months in Iran (I have made several trips to Iran). That's about it , but I am still young and I look forward to visiting new places. And you, Thomas?

[Paul Stevens]

I have said that I have found Europeans more open minded. I think it is wrong to put it that way, and I will be the first to admit that. It is my view that Europeans are better informed than Americans. I think their media is less biased then America.

Just because they don't say what you want to hear and the European press says some of the things you want to hear doesn't make one better informed over the other.

[Dave Vick]

Originally posted by Anthony Goshaunee:
It is true that none of us were there, and you "floating possible scenarios for how the incident occured" is pointless, because you do not know what happened.

OK, so you're saying that that means because none of us was there and none of us can know exactly what happend that this discussion is pointless? OK good we can all go home now.
All that anyone has here is their opinions, that is what makes for a debate where we can all hope to learn something from the opposing view point.
Jason offers possible scenarios for what may or may not have happened... Someone disagrees with him so offers another scenario or brings up a fact that invalidates or at least casts doubt on it... We all have something to think about, and hopefully learn form.
You can't debate someones theory with another theory it'd go on forever with no one learning anything. Hell, my theory could be that it is really a militant arm of the East Ohio coal miners association that shot at the plane. But, by proposing that no-one learns anything (except that I'm an idiot ). Jason brings up a theory someone should point out its failing with facts or at least fact based supposition, then propose an alternate theory. Then Jason or someone else will debate that. It goes on that way until we all agree to disagree but hopefully in the mean time we will all have learned at least a little somthing about the opposing view.
Just my two cents
By the way I am not, nor have I ever been, a part of the East Ohio coal miners association. and when one of us (I mean them) get married, we (I mean they) dont shoot at airplanes, they use BB guns on each others tractors.
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Dave Vick ]

[Michael Ernest]

There's nothing particularly nationalistic or cultural about pointing a gun at something moving without thinking about the consequences. It could have been the exuberance of the occasion, coupled with a little alcohol, maybe even a little resentment at the American aircraft for "intruding" on the occasion. All that makes for potentially bad judgment, not an indictment of an entire culture. I can also guess those people, if they are who they were reported to be, had no idea, wartime or not, that they might provoke an attack.
It's a WAR, for Pete's sake. Our plane didn't trust what it saw (possibly) and took it for a military target (possibly). We don't know more than what we're told, and in a war, the potential of propaganda value of this event at least has me wondering if someone out there isn't trying to make stark PR value out of a more ambiguous incident.
I think what slacker wants to hear in Jason's comments is the idea that these wedding participants (if that is in fact what they were) "brought this upon themselves." I for one don't see that in what Jason said. I do read his statement this whatever the actual events were, it's tragic.
Anthony, I think it's also clear that you are dedicated to hearing the worst from what Jason has to say. And if he doesn't give you anything to do that with, you make something up. Shame on you.
More to the point, the idea that "Afghanis don't fire at aircraft" is about the densest assertion I've heard in the last hour. You can't begin to back it up. You can no more speak for all Afghani people than I can.
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[Jason Menard]

Perhaps you should avoid bigoted and racially prejudiced "offhand comments". I think you realized that you were wrong, and instead of admit it, you let it go too far, and now all you can do is post and angry response to me. What an intelligent debater you are indeed, Jason!

When you are unable to present any other coherent argument, it is always worth it to label your opponent a racist.
But since you made that ignorant and baseless accusation, perhaps you can tell me which Afghani race I am prejudiced against? Come on, you made the statement, surely you can bak it up?
However, I made the comment, and despite your inability to see it for the sarcasm it was, and despite your inability to see a problem with your own comment implying that persons in a war torn country don't shoot things, I am more than happy to defend my comment.
Let me be clear so you can't make any mistake: Afghanistan has a culture of warfare. I hope I am being clear and leaving no room for ambiguity.
There is no reason for you to take my word for it though, so I'll leave you with some references that refer to Aghanistan's culture of war.

• Corwin Vandermark. "Chances Fading for Taliban Victory and Peace in Afghanistan". Weekly Defense Monitor. Vol 4, Issue #18. Center for Defense Information. May 4, 2000.
  
• BBC News interview with Dr Abdullah Abdullah, Former Aide to Ahmed Shah Massoud

. "The Afghan Trap". BBC News. December 2, 2001.

• Womankind Worldwide. "WOMANKIND�s position statement on the Situation in Afghanistan". Womankind Worldwide. November 15, 2001.
  
• Humayun Hamidzada. "The world can learn much from Afghan history". Tufts Journal. Tufts University. January 2002.
  
• "Statement by Dr. Sima Samar, Vice-Chair of the Interim Administration of Afghanistan and Minister for Women's Affairs, to the Security Council on 25 April 2002".
  
• Halima Kazem. "Executive Summary of Afghan Educational Roundtable". Institute for Afghan Studies. January 16, 2002.
  
• "Afghanistan Sub-Commission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights Report of the Secretary-General".
  
• Human Rights Watch. "Backgrounder on Afghanistan: History of the War". Human Rights News. Human Rights Watch. October 2001.


The list is actually quite endless and I could go on for a while citing various sources to back up my claim. Notice that several of the sources are actually Afghani. I'm sure it's all racially motivated though (whatever race you are talking about). Do those statements by all those academics, by the UN, and by human rights groups offend you as well?
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Anthony Goshaunee]

Jason, I do not doubt that the Afghan people have been victims of many wars. But for you to say that it is there "culture" is wrong, and that is exactly what you said. I have trouble seeing why you can not understand that.
Furthermore, I did not label you as a racist. I asked you to stay away from bigoted offhand comments if you did not want me to bring them to your attention. If you want to take it personal, then so be it. If you make another such comment I will do the same thing.

[Anthony Goshaunee]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

But since you made that ignorant and baseless accusation, perhaps you can tell me which Afghani race I am prejudiced against? Come on, you made the statement, surely you can bak it up?
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

First tell me which Afghani race you believe it is in their "culture" to shoot things. Surely you know that Afghanistan is very diverse with many different cultures and races.
Or were you just lumping all of them into one and saying, "they all like to shoot stuff" like the educated debater you are?

[Jason Menard]

Perhaps you should avoid bigoted and racially prejudiced "offhand comments".

That speaks for itself.
The fact remains though, that my comment was not what you characterized it to be. I have backed up that claim, however you failed to comment on that, instead re-iterating your previous accusation.
Maybe you don't understand what how culture can be applied in this type of situation?

Culture
n
1.
a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.

b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.

c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.

Do you understand what a culture of war is? Do you understand what a culture of peace is?

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Anthony Goshaunee:

First tell me which Afghani race you believe it is in their "culture" to shoot things. Surely you know that Afghanistan is very diverse with many different cultures and races.
Or were you just lumping all of them into one and saying, "they all like to shoot stuff" like the educated debater you are?

You aren't getting it. Culture has little to do with race, so I do not think it applies to any race. Culture, particularly in this case, refers to a prevailing set of social values.
Again, I have backed up my claim more than sufficiently.

------------------------
How to debate:
Person A: I claim such and such. Here are the facts that I base this claim on.
Person B: I disagree. I acknowledge your facts but find them faulty and I offer these facts to support this and refute your claim.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
as opposed to:
Person A: I claim such and such. Here are the facts that I base this claim on.
Person B: I am paying no attention to your facts because they don't fit my preconceived notions, which themselves aren't really based on anything of substance. You're an idiot Person A. In fact, I now assert that you said something else. You moron A.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
[ August 05, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Gregg Bolinger]

If someone mentioned this before earlier in the posts, I apologize for mentioning it again.
Granted that dropping a bomb on a wedding was a mistake. And I do not say this to excuse that mistake or to pass blame, however, if my country is at war on my own soil, war planes flying continuously overhead as they no doubt had to know, I think that I would post a sign at the entrance to the wedding with text something like this:
"Please be aware that enemy aircraft tend to fly overhead. Please do not fire weapons into the air as you may inadvertantly cause American Soldiers to Bomb us. Thank you."
I mean, use some judgement here.