Me and C#

[Gregg Bolinger]

Ok, I have been programming in JAVA for about 1.5 years. I have been Anti MS for as long as I can remember which played a role in why I chose to devote so much time to JAVA. I didn't want to be tied down to 1 OS when programming. And JAVA met that need on the money.
I have been "exposed" to C# and .NET since it's release because of some people I work with. And I passed it off as just another MS product trying to take over the world.
Well, I went out today, bought a book. I bought Windows Forms Programming with C#. Because my expertise is in GUI's so I though I would just see what the new .NET Windows Forms had to offer. I hated MFC by they way.
Anyway, it's actaully really nice I have to admit. They have really wrapped up a ton of funtionallity in their classes that I have been having to code in JAVA.
In a nutshell, if I had to write a program for WINDOWS (and Windows only) I would definattly consider C# (or possibly C++).
Reasons:
1. It's fast
2. Less Code, More Functionallity
3. Easily distributed
I still love JAVA and will never stop using it. But all you MS haters (as I am still) should be intellegent enough to be a little open minded. Well, at least I have decided to.
On a side note, I do hate MS for what they do as far as $$$$$$$$$$$$$$. And I don't think Bill Gates or any of his developers are geniuses for created C# or .NET. But I do feel that thier implementation of C# however stolen from JAVA (who stole from someone else) is pretty darn good.

[Michael Ernest]

As soon as they port it to Solaris, I'll give it a try. :roll:

[Shura Balaganov]

Why would they? As long as they can get half of Java followers on board, Java marked will dry up. I think that's their plan.
Shura

[Michael Ernest]

Java simply isn't going away for any reason that M$ can dream up. In any given year, you can find a report that says more people are leaving Java than coming to it, and vice versa, but the infrastructure developed for it over the last 6 years is way, way beyond C#'s ability to bring down.
If C# is going to eat anyone else's lunch, my guess is it's likely to be Visual Basic's.

[Thomas Paul]

I think the main reason that MS needed C# was because there horde of Visual Basic and C++ programmers were crying out for something better. Java wasn't it because it can't compete against Windows applications on a Windows box. Swing just can't do the job. With C#, MS programmers now have the perfect language to move them along.
And Michael, no Solaris port but how about a Linux port?
http://www.go-mono.com

[Gregg Bolinger]

I am glad to know that there are people in the Ranch with open minds. I am still waiting for someone to slam me for trying C#.

[Paul Stevens]

C# how dumb can you be to try that Feel better now Gregg

[Gregg Bolinger]

Whew! Thanks Paul. I was beginning to wonder where the "Die Hard JAVA All other languages suck Sun can do no wrong" people were.

[Randall Twede]

gregg
i can deffinately relate. i dont like MS either but that doesnt mean im going to avoid using the best tool to get the job done. i dont know C# but in some instances VB is a much better choice than Java. for that matter PHP is perhaps a better choice for a lot of web-apps. as they say time is money. at least Java was my first language of the internet era and is my basis for comparison.

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
I am glad to know that there are people in the Ranch with open minds. I am still waiting for someone to slam me for trying C#.

MD is one of those quid pro quo environments where you most often get what you give.
If you had come in all full of piss and vinegar proclaiming C# the clear winner among a pathetic heap of also-rans, I'm sure I'd have had no problem countering with something equally obnoxious. Kind of like a verbal shadow-boxing.
It's rather fun, watching people express utter indignance at being spoken to in the same way they speak to others.

[Thomas Paul]

Ignoring where the language came from and just looking at C#... it has a lot of nice features (and some bad ones). I think most Java programmers will feel very comfortable after about a week of coding. That's the time it takes to get used to typing "string" instead of "String".

[Dirk Schreckmann]

"string" instead of "String"? Ah nuts. Did they have to go and attack the naming conventions?

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
Whew! Thanks Paul. I was beginning to wonder where the "Die Hard JAVA All other languages suck Sun can do no wrong" people were.

Gregg,
Sun has at least done one thing wrong. They were illegally laying off American citizens while keeping H1-Bs.
Sun H1-B Class Action Lawsuit
http://www.sunclassaction.com
Rich
[ August 25, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Dirk Schreckmann:
"string" instead of "String"? Ah nuts. Did they have to go and attack the naming conventions?

Yeah and Main instead of main is a tough one too. I guess that's why you let visual studio do the coding for you. That way you don't goof up as much. It's hard though. Notepad and a command line suit me just fine.
Did that rhyme?

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
If you had come in all full of piss and vinegar proclaiming C# the clear winner among a pathetic heap of also-rans, I'm sure I'd have had no problem countering with something equally obnoxious. Kind of like a verbal shadow-boxing.

I'm not ignorant enough to think that any language is the clear winner among anything. Like Randall mentioned, most languages have their niche, or their reason for existing and that language will suit that purpose better than others at times and worse than others at times.

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Ignoring where the language came from and just looking at C#... it has a lot of nice features (and some bad ones).

I agree 100%. But it is so hard not to look at where the language came from.

[Dirk Schreckmann]

I guess that's why you let visual studio do the coding for you.
So, how much does that cost? Is it possible to develop in C# without spending hundreds of dollars on .NET crap?

[Gregg Bolinger]

Yeah, it's very possible. There is a command line compiler, csc (C Sharp Compiler). In fact, the book I got on Windows Forms Programming with C# starts you out with Notepad and the command line. That's why I bought the book. Just like with JAVA, you have to know the API. In fact, here is a link to the API.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/cpref/html/cpref_start.asp
As far as the cost, I really don't know. The company I work for had a copy of it so I am using it.

[Charlie Sturman]

a bit of a tangent but...
evil empires
Msft as the evil empire is just a fashion statement.Sun is no better or worse than Msft.They are both publicly held for profit corps.
Java is Sun's best and worst product.

user interface
C# forms msft vs Java Swing sun.These guys are in the same camp.The real battle for the user interface is about programmers vs graphic designers.Html was the first tool a non programmer had to freely build a user interface.The next round of tools will unleash the creative user interface.Logic Freaks like us need not dispair.Somebody has to make all that chrome do something interesting

[Dirk Schreckmann]

Do users of an app developed in C# have to download the .NET package? I noticed a couple of months ago that this download was over 20MB and I just now noticed that service pack 2 is already out. That would seem to be a lot of downloading and updating for the user, if it's required.

[Gregg Bolinger]

What is required is the .NET Framework which is the equevilant of the JRE. C# needs a runtime enviornment just like JAVA. And last time I checked the JRE is about the same size. As with JAVA the .NET Framework can be packaged with your application upon distribution.
The .NET Framework is so much like the JRE. It is a VM with a bunch of DLL's that contain all the libraries needed by C#. There is more involved in the .NET Framework than just that though. I think (Not 100% sure) that All parts of the .NET enviornment can utilize the .NET framework. The reason is Microsoft realized that everytime a MS App is distributed, you get a ton of files thrown all over your hard drive. Plus registry entries. With .NET one of the +'s is being able to distribute a single EXE file that uses the .NET Framework to access the libraries it needs. I think this holds true more for C# and VB than C++. C++ doesn't even use Windows Forms. It still uses the MFC libraries to build it's GUI's. Although you can probably link to the Windows Forms DLL's and use them in C++ if you know what you are doing. (I don't).
Anyway, that is the extent of my knowledge on the subject. I have only been working with this for about 4 days now, so it is still really new to me.
A good source for C# information besides MS's site, is http://www.c-sharpcorner.com. That have forums and tutorials, etc.
On a side but relivant note - Visual Studio .NET (the IDE) was written almost entirely in C#.
[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: Gregg Bolinger ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Dirk Schreckmann:
Do users of an app developed in C# have to download the .NET package?

Think JRE.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Dirk Schreckmann:
So, how much does that cost? Is it possible to develop in C# without spending hundreds of dollars on .NET crap?

You can buy C#.Net for about $80. This is a version of Visual Studio designed for C# developers. Or you can try the free IDE currently being developed.
http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/default.asp

[Dirk Schreckmann]

Thanks for the information.

[Anonymous]

I am glad to know that there are people in the Ranch with open minds. I am still waiting for someone to slam me for trying C#.

Here you go .
Gasp! How dare you mention that you used C# on Javaranch.
Java rulez. C# is bad. MSFT represents the dark side. You are a traitor to SUN's cause. SUN(tm) cares for the developers and wants to release you from the clutches of the evil empire.
You are hereby ordered to write all your code using EDLIN for the next 6 months.
cheers

[Paul Stevens]

You didn't lose your password M$ erased it :roll:

[pamchau]

Hmm, I think if you look at the history of C# you will find that it came about becuase Sun sued MicroSoft over J++. MicroSoft had to stop development of J++, so they developed C# as a way to try and get even with Sun.