Clash of Civilizations!!

[Amitabh Sharma]

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/oct/10franc.htm
From the Article:
Finally, is America going to be perpetually the El Dorado that still make Indians dream? Not sure. There are certain signs which show that the US economy is entering a period of darkness: the slump in the stock market, the packing up of half of Silicon Valley, the near bankruptcy of many American airlines, and more than that, the erosion of the American confidence.
There are bound to be more terrorist attacks on the US in the next few years, as Samuel Huntington's prophecy of a 'clash of civilizations' between Islam and the West, with China siding with Islam (let's us not forget that Beijing already gave Pakistan the technology to build its nuclear weapons) and Hindu India allied with the West, will prove more and more true. This in turn will trigger more panic, more loss of confidence amongst Americans and eventually a stock market crash on the lines of the one which happened in 1929.

[Amitabh Sharma]

I hope this never happens . It is such a scary thought.
This article has been written by Francois Gautier, who has lived in India for 30 years and is married to an Indian, is a French journalist, the correspondent in South Asia for Le Figaro, France's largest circulated newspaper.

[Axel Janssen]

This is a surprise for me:

Compare this to India: I have lived here for 33 years, I have gone to the most remote places, traveled to sacred spots with my cameras, tape recorder and white face. And never once have I been aggressed, never once has my passport been asked for in the streets (try traveling in the subway in Paris if you have a brown face and a leather jacket), never once have I been mugged at late nights in Delhi, Mumbai or Chennai, whereas in Washington, the capital of the 'land of freedom,' we were told not to go out alone in certain parts after 8 pm.

Are the poors to hungry to attack? :roll:
I don't believe in these Huntington theories.
Here are some points I see:
The economic situation isn't comparable to 1929. In that crisis banks and insurance companies broke. If this happens the real problems begin. The problem with this crisis - at least in Germany - is that skilled middle class people seems to be hit harder than blue collared workers. The lay offs are in consulting and banking. This is new.
West is shutting doors for skilled people for the moment, because the hype is over. In the long run this will change, because we produce no kids, but in the long run we will be all death.
But: There will be more outsourcing. Without being expert, I bet that the big thing in India in 2 years will be programming for integrated devices for the car industry.
This stupid muslimic fundamentalism thing is dangerous, but a side issue. Lots of people in the muslimic world will never side with bin Laden.
An European Union cow gets 2$ of subventions a day. 50% of worlds population have less than that. We will have very tough round of trade negotiations.

good night

[Anonymous]

Frankly I dont think this article written by some French guy, is accurate.
He dosent understand the dynamics of Indian soceity at all. Once India starts calling itself a Hindu country, what happens to the rest of the people who are of other religions? Should they move to other countries or should they become Hindu?

[Anonymous]

There are bound to be more terrorist attacks on the US in the next few years, as Samuel Huntington's prophecy of a 'clash of civilizations' between Islam and the West, with China siding with Islam (let's us not forget that Beijing already gave Pakistan the technology to build its nuclear weapons) and Hindu India allied with the West
Let us be honest: everyone is the friend of the US. The only difference is how close they are with the US. Egypt, Israel, and Palentanine all receive hugh amount of aides form the US each year.

[Anonymous]

The article seems to be sponsered by Vishwa Hindu Parishad(www.vhp.org)or any of the thousand nodes of the root,Sangh Parivar(www.rss.org).
Francois Gautier's journalism seems to be limited upto talking to some 'five star' socialites.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by <rahul rege>:
The article seems to be sponsered by Vishwa Hindu Parishad(www.vhp.org)or any of the thousand nodes of the root,Sangh Parivar(www.rss.org).
Francois Gautier's journalism seems to be limited upto talking to some 'five star' socialites.

It has become a kind of "elitist" to attribute everything that tries to put the case of Hindus to RSS or VHP. It's only because of people like you, who consider themselves to be "secular minded", that Hindus have suffered so much at the hands of Muslims and Christians. These people have taken undue advantage of Hindu hospitality and tolerance and have screwed us for well over 500 years.
It's time to WAKE UP. There is nothing wrong if RSS and VHP are openly voicing our case and if they are doing what Hindus should have done long back. Kick some butt.
Call me non-secular or whatever, I support RSS and VHP 100%. Unlike Jehadis, they don't export terrorism, they don't blow up planes or buildings, they don't do suicide bombing. Compare this to various muslim organizations in India that run good for nothing madarasas and promote hatred against their own motherland.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by <slacker>:
Once India starts calling itself a Hindu country, what happens to the rest of the people who are of other religions? Should they move to other countries or should they become Hindu?

This is stupid argument. Where are all the Hindus from US or UK going? Nowhere. They live there peacefully, obeying the law of the country and, in general, doing good for the country they live in. Freedom to practice once religion does not give you freedom to sabotage to the peace of the country or to have your own laws.
The same thing should happen in India too. Nobody has to go anywhere. US is a secular country, and as the article pointed out, its president takes oath over the Bible. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
Call me non-secular or whatever, I support RSS and VHP 100%. Unlike Jehadis, they don't export terrorism, they don't blow up planes or buildings, they don't do suicide bombing.

While they may not blow up planes or building or do suicide bombings, if I'm not mistaken, one of their favorite tactics is to burn people alive, including missionaries and their children. Nice bunch of people to throw your support behind 100%.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

While they may not blow up planes or building or do suicide bombings, if I'm not mistaken, one of their favorite tactics is to burn people alive, including missionaries and their children. Nice bunch of people to throw your support behind 100%.

I so knew this was coming. However, your argument is based on half truth. First, neither VHP nor RSS support bunring people alive and neither do I. This was an isolated incident and nobody knows what exactly triggered this to happen. Just like you wouldn't call all americans as racists based on shootings that happened after 9/11, I would not brand Hindus or RSS or VHP as such.
If you keep harping on this incident all the time and make them the target of your satire, it just shows your ignorance about the complete picture.
In any case, the missionary went into the land of "un-enlightned" and uneducated people, who were deep into the darkness of Hinduism, to show them the "light" of Jesus. He should have factored in the risks
And why doesn't so called secular international community take notice when Hindus are persucuted and temples are destroyed in Pak. and BDesh?
Yes, I do support RSS and VHP 100%.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Americans refer to our country as being a Christian country (or Judeo-Christian when we are being inclusive). That does not mean that other faiths aren't welcome here.

Well, I didn't know that US was a christian country. But if that is the case, you are actually supporting my point that there is nothing wrong in India being a Hindu country. India's track record shows that all the faiths and religions have prospered in this land without any trouble. I do not consider any religion unwelcome as long as people follow the law and put the country they live in before their religion.

[Amitabh Sharma]

I was really proud of India's "sarva dharma sambhav" (all religions are the same) policy that India followed since Independence under the congress governments. Then by some game of coalition politics the right wing BJP party captured power. And at the start they hid their true colors and acted as if they also secular. But then Gujarat happened. A few years back I could have never imagined such a thing to happen in india. VHP and RSS were most influencial in Gujarat. Modi is still the cheife minister. And it is appalling that there is substantial support for him in Gujarat. See how VHP is almost getting successful in changing the tolerant society to people like Pakka desi who think they are normal but actually they are crazy and facsists. Pakka desi why do think that hindus in india need to kick some butt? They are better off being tolerant of others. You stink.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Pakka Desi:

These people have taken undue advantage of Hindu hospitality and tolerance and have screwed us for well over 500 years.[QB]
Nobody screwed anybody,Read the history,It was politics for the power and money.If you read the history(written by Secular authors),you will see that ecomonics and power were the main reasons and not religion behind the wars.
And what about the treatment given to 'lower caste/untouchables' by 'upper caste'hospitable/tolerant Hindus???Have you read book 'Riddles of Hinduism' by B R Ambedkar?It is available on the web.

It's time to WAKE UP. There is nothing wrong if RSS and VHP are openly voicing our case and if they are doing what Hindus should have done long back. Kick some butt.[QB]
You are openly voicing against whom?Just bcos some Muslim ruler killed some Hindus 350 years back,You want to take the revange on Muslims who are living here since 1000 years?

[QB]Call me non-secular or whatever, I support RSS and VHP 100%. Unlike Jehadis, they don't export terrorism, they don't blow up planes or buildings, they don't do suicide bombing. Compare this to various muslim organizations in India that run good for nothing madarasas and promote hatred against their own motherland.

RSS/VHP have their hidden fascist agenda.They havn't come up upto 'the level' of Jehidis bcos India opted democracy system instead of any other in 1947.These were the same RSS who once opposed entry of 'Untouchables'(Dalits) into some temples.These are the same RSS who have supported Social structure based on 'Caste'.Now these are the same RSS/BJP who are doing corruption scandals in Coffins/Gas stations/Education .

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
First, neither VHP nor RSS support bunring people alive and neither do I. This was an isolated incident and nobody knows what exactly triggered this to happen.

Isolated incident? And nobody knows what the people did to deserve to be burned alive? I'm sure the sleeping 8 year old and 10 year old boys must have seemed pretty fierce. Same goes for the muslim women and children similarly murdered. What a truly brave and heroic group of people.
http://www.dalitstan.org/journal/genocide/christians/staines.html
http://www.flonnet.com/fl1906/19060150.htm
http://www.sabrang.com/gujarat/kconf/kcon1.htm
http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/DD19Df03.html
http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1999/11/05/p1s2.htm
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/RoyGujurat.htm
http://india.indymedia.org:8081/front.php3?article_id=1173

I would not brand Hindus or RSS or VHP as such.

Nobody said anything about Hindus as a whole.

If you keep harping on this incident all the time and make them the target of your satire, it just shows your ignorance about the complete picture.

No satire here. I'm also not speaking of any one particular incident, there were several. And if the "complete picture" involves justification for murder, I'm not really interested.

In any case, the missionary went into the land of "un-enlightned" and uneducated people, who were deep into the darkness of Hinduism, to show them the "light" of Jesus. He should have factored in the risks

That you would find such a thing amusing, or joke about it, as shown by the , is pretty sick and twisted, imho.

And why doesn't so called secular international community take notice when Hindus are persucuted and temples are destroyed in Pak. and BDesh?

So actions against a group of people in one country are justification for for actions against other groups of people in a different country, including murder? Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.

Yes, I do support RSS and VHP 100%.

Then you share responsibility for their actions.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Then you share responsibility for their actions.

I don't need any certificate of acceptance or interest from you for my beliefs. The links that you've provided do not prove at all that buring missionaries is a regular practice in India. The fact is, they got all the support from the local people and religion that they needed to prosper but they cheated and deceived them as soon they gathered enough momentum.
What happened to Graham Stains was bad and should not happen but what missionaries and muslim clerics are doing to my country is sick too. And I will do all I can to prevent them from brainwashing poor and illiterate people. RSS and VHP is definitely a step in the right direction.
And I do support them 100%.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
What happened to Graham Stains was bad and should not happen but ...

That's the problem, there's always a "but" for justicication isn't there? For one thing, if you had actually read the links, I was not speaking about only violence against missionaries nor was I speaking only about one individual case, although that one does stand out as being particularly sick.

And I will do all I can to prevent them from brainwashing poor and illiterate people. RSS and VHP is definitely a step in the right direction.

Yes, the RSS and VHP are so deeply interested in the welfare of the lower castes. Their concern is heartwarming. Or it's just an excuse to further their own agenda and justify murder. But since you are willing to do "all you can", then I'm sure you could find it in your altruistic heart to take in a family of "poor and illiterate" people and help provide for them. Or if you can't afford to help provide for the whole family, then why not adopt a child from one of the missionary run orphanages? I'm sure since you want to do all you can "to prevent them from brainwashing poor and illiterate people" then this would be an excellent way to achieve this goal of yours. Or would that require too much effort and commitment?

And I do support them 100%.

Yes I got that. We have already established that you support their policies and their violence and share responsibility for their actions.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Then you share responsibility for their actions.

Does this extend to flag wavers, tax payers, and the generally apathetic citizen of a country?

[Pradip Bhat]

Problem is, identifying fascists/extremists among elitist/educated Hindus.They don't say openly their agenda but support it and use uneducated youth to implement it by tactics.Take the example of Gujarat massacre.I have spoken to many people who are the natives of that state.Privately many said that "There was a need to 'punish' Muslims" These people to whom I talked were not some illiterate but educated with good financial status.Why this change in the attiude in middle/higher middle class in India?Main reason is, RSS has succeeded in implementing hidden agenda of hatred for the last 25 years.This was done in many ways like forming 100s of organizations in the name of ancient culture across the world,spreading stories of 'golden era'(i.e. how we were ahead of world,and how 'those'people detroyed 'our' culture and 'looted' us ).

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
[QB]
Or if you can't afford to help provide for the whole family, then why not adopt a child from one of the missionary run orphanages? I'm sure since you want to do all you can "to prevent them from brainwashing poor and illiterate people" then this would be an excellent way to achieve this goal of yours. Or would that require too much effort and commitment?
/QB]

How do you know that I or other people who support VHP and RSS do not do their bit helping the poor families? How do you know that all upper cast people treat lower cast people badly? Yes, this was true decades ago but we are improving. We have laws to prevent that and if you don't know there is 30% (more in some state) reservation for lower casts. I am sure, the stigma of castism will go away from India as people beceom more educated. It will take time but we'll definitely improve.
You are talking as if the whole country runs on o the services given by the missionaries. You are mistaken, Sir, India did progress and will progress even without these missionaries.
I never saw or heard of any orphanage run by any muslim organization in India. All they run are madarasas.
Yes, missionaries do run orphangages. They are smarter than the muslims. On the front they run orphanages but actually their main motive is to convert people.
And who is asking them to run orphanages? If this the price for their services, I don't want them in my country. Why the hell are they so much concerned about the poors and destitues of India??? Aren't there enough poors or homeless in their own countries???
They can't sit on a high ground by running orphanages. Because if helping the poor is their sole motive, there are tons of countries besides their own that need them. Why not do their bit there. But you know what? They won't. Why? Because there is nobody left to convert.
They profess that they don't want anything in return for the services. But their actual motive is nothing but conversion. That's the trick they've been playing since ages. They go to places where Christianity in not practiced pretending that they merely want to help the poor and very soon they start brainwashing the people. They are no different than a Trojan Horse. They ought to be kicked out.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by rahul rege:
Problem is, identifying fascists/extremists among elitist/educated Hindus.They don't say openly their agenda but support it and use uneducated youth to implement it by tactics.Take the example of Gujarat massacre.I have spoken to many people who are the natives of that state.Privately many said that "There was a need to 'punish' Muslims" These people to whom I talked were not some illiterate but educated with good financial status.Why this change in the attiude in middle/higher middle class in India?Main reason is, RSS has succeeded in implementing hidden agenda of hatred for the last 25 years.This was done in many ways like forming 100s of organizations in the name of ancient culture across the world,spreading stories of 'golden era'(i.e. how we were ahead of world,and how 'those'people detroyed 'our' culture and 'looted' us ).

RSS has been successfull in pointing out the true nature of these people. I happen to be BTech from IITD and I openly support RSS and VHP. And I am not at all ashamed of that.
As you said, many people privately support RSS and VHP but they are unable to do so openely because of "staying with the crowd" factor. Nobody wants to be the odd man out. But soon these people will realize that their active and vocal support is needed and accepted accross the country. And they'll come out in the open, like me. I know that the feeling is there all accross the country, it just needs to be aroused and brought out. And it will happen sooner than you think.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by rahul rege:
).

I am not supporter of VHP or RSS, I have my own reasons for it.
But not supporting does not mean that I oppose them.
What triggered Gujrat riot, you must be knowing it.
I am agreeing whatever happen was really bad.
Everyone has condemned it.

Or if you can't afford to help provide for the whole family, then why not adopt a child from one of the missionary run orphanages? I'm sure since you want to do all you can "to prevent them from brainwashing poor and illiterate people" then this would be an excellent way to achieve this goal of yours. Or would that require too much effort and commitment?

You dont have clothes, come here I will give you clothes, I will give food also, I will give you money also. The only price is, I want your soul, originality. I want your religion. I want what you got from your birth.
There are some who buy souls.
Poor even sells its body what is this soul.
You give me 100 million $ I will sleep with you. You might not sleep with me even I give you 1000 million $ cause right now you wont accept it.
And who told you that all orphanages is run by missionaries and no one else is working for it ??
Where these organisation face difficulty is getting funds.
From where these missionaries get their money? Think it ...
I will salute them when they serve poor and orphan but dont convert them in to Christianity.
Have you ever thought why only tribal and poor people are being converted in to any other religion ??
And yes there will always be but for everything and to see that but one needs to open his eye and mind.
Children died in attack but we were not aiming them.
I dropped bomb on marriage party but I could not go down to find whether they were shooters OR they were celebrating marriage down there.
but .....
[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[Amitabh Sharma]

Pakka desi you may be from IITD but u need a lesson in humanity. The real threat to secularism comes from people like you. The day I read about the esteemed lawyer, union minister and BJP spokesman Arun Jaitley (whom I held in high regard until then) put up a defence for Narendra Modi (Indian Hitler) I felt I had been wrong in assuming that just because these people are educated and successful people they are morally right. I understood what facsists means. Narendra Modi sounds so confident about everything he talks. He has no remorse for killings in Gujarat. Even the British removed General Dyer after Jalianwala bagh but did the elitist of BJP (including Vajpayee) remove Modi? Fortunately everyone in India does not think like Pakka desi. Wait till next elections. Congress Party is back in 15 states and now Kashmir too. This time we will select a prime minister who can walk, stay awake during meetings and has only one agenda - well being of _all_ Indians.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by Amitabh Sharma:
Pakka desi you may be from IITD but u need a lesson in humanity. The real threat to secularism comes from people like you. The day I read about the esteemed lawyer, union minister and BJP spokesman Arun Jaitley (whom I held in high regard until then) put up a defence for Narendra Modi (Indian Hitler) I felt I had been wrong in assuming that just because these people are educated and successful people they are morally right. I understood what facsists means. Narendra Modi sounds so confident about everything he talks. He has no remorse for killings in Gujarat. Even the British removed General Dyer after Jalianwala bagh but did the elitist of BJP (including Vajpayee) remove Modi? Fortunately everyone in India does not think like Pakka desi. Wait till next elections. Congress Party is back in 15 states and now Kashmir too. This time we will select a prime minister who can walk, stay awake during meetings and has only one agenda - well being of _all_ Indians.

Wow...you are rooting for the party that was nothing but a british stooge. This is the same party that belived the british would happily quit India after WWI, if Indians fought for it.
Congress gave nothing to the country except corruption and scandals. People trusted the congress leaders for 40 years. During most of independent years of India, congress had absolute majority and what they gave back to the country? Right from Nehru to Rajiv Gandhi era, this party has been looting the country and you are are saying that it will keep the well being of *all* Indians. Who will be your leader? Sonia Gandhi? Why not go back to getting ruled by the Queen???
It is only because of people like you that Congress is surviving. But not for long.

I agree, BJP does not *look* any different right now but you have to keep in mind that they do not have the absolute majority. Further, RSS is not BJP. BJP is because of RSS and not the other way round. I am an RSS guy to the core. If BJP does not follow our line, it has to go too.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by Amitabh Sharma:
Even the British removed General Dyer after Jalianwala bagh but did the elitist of BJP (including Vajpayee) remove Modi?

The british removed General Dyre not the queen, not the PM and not even the Viceroy. Hell, they did not even issue an apology. It is because of people like you that our country was oppress for 200 years by the british. Go ahead, worship them.

[Dave Vick]

Pakka
You use the word brainwashing quite frequently in a few of your posts - it seems to me that you're having a rather strong reaction to the entire concept of missionaries.
I don't know where you get the whole idea of a 'trojan horse', I'm sure that the mission statement, if they have one as such, of most missionary groups (regardless of religion) says something about spreading the word of god. I think brainwashing is a bit of a reactionary take on the whole thing. Maybe you have had some negative experience with it?
Ok, so they talk about their god, not neccesarily the god of the people they are helping - so what?!?! If I'm starving to death, can't feed my family and have no chance of getting any thing related to decent medical attention I'm more than willing to listen to someone talk about religion for a while to help my family. You make it sound like some sort of indoctrination program whereby you have to go through all sorts of religious 'retraining' before they'll give you your bowl of rice. I'm not a missionary myself so I can't speak from experience but I find that scenario very hard to believe. Yes, they'll talk to you about their beliefs and of course they'd love it if people converted, but you know what... there isn't any other religion in the world that doesn't seek converts. So why does it surprise you that they do it with the carrot instead of the stick. How do you think religions spread?
Hell, if I was doing it I'd much prefer going in and helping people out and maybe getting a convert or two as opposed to what you seem to want which would be entire villages and regions stagnant with high mortality rates because they have no food, water, clothes, medical attention, or education. You're right, a few hundred deaths is much preferable to a few converts and having to listen to someone elses point of view. It is a very intolerant society/religion/group/etc that can't listen to opposing viewpoints. If your only response is to call them names and insinuate things about their motives then maybe you should stay out of the debate.

[Dave Vick]

Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
If BJP does not follow our line, it has to go too.

Wow!! I was right you are pretty intolerant. What you are describing sounds pretty much like a dictatorship, good idea seeing how well they've all worked out in the past. < sarcasm smiley />

We need more smileys....

[Jason Menard]

Pakka Desi doesn't really sound all that much different than a Muslim fundamentalist. But anyway, can I assume that based on your earlier comments and despite your rhetoric, that you will not do your part to actually help the ignorant poor people you claim you champion? Help in a meaningful way, such as I suggested earlier (taking in a family, adopting a child, etc...).
Have you ever thought for a moment that if you were actually able to take care of what you derisively refer to as your "poor people", who you have so much concern for, that others wouldn't have to come in and try to help? So while you may not appreciate foreigners coming in and feeding, clothing, educating, and providing health care to these people, I'm sure the beneficiaries of the aid are thankful for it.
Further, I think it's amusing how you think so little of your "poor" as people, that you do not credit them with the ability to choose what religion they want to follow. Instead you merely laud your superiority over them as a supposedly educated and literate person who thinks he really knows what is best for them. Since you claim you live in a secular state, an individual's relgion is not only none of your business, it shouldn't matter in the least. But like any good fundamentalist, spreading your agenda is more important than the actual welfare of the people your kind pretend to champion.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Dave Vick:
I was right you are pretty intolerant. What you are describing sounds pretty much like a dictatorship, good idea seeing how well they've all worked out in the past. < sarcasm smiley />

The BJP is an offshoot of RSS. They are also a hate group (I mean political group) responsible for many deaths as well. I would go one further than calling what he is seeking a dictatorship. Maybe fundamentalist dictatorship would be more appropriate?
[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Dave Vick]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Maybe fundamentalist dictatorship would be more appropriate?

So my sentence was fundamentally wrong?
Sorry, had to... couldn't resist...

[Amitabh Sharma]

Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
[QB]
Congress gave nothing to the country except corruption and scandals. People trusted the congress leaders for 40 years. During most of independent years of India, congress had absolute majority and what they gave back to the country? Right from Nehru to Rajiv Gandhi era, this party has been looting the country and you are are saying that it will keep the well being of *all* Indians. Who will be your leader? Sonia Gandhi? Why not go back to getting ruled by the Queen???
It is only because of people like you that Congress is surviving. But not for long.
QB]

Yes I like Sonia Gandhi for many reasons. She is graceful. She and the Gandhi family have made great sacrifices for the nation. She is evolving as a good leader with a mind of her own. She was the ONLY NATIONAL Leader to actually go to Kashmir during elections to address a rally. She was genuinely concerned about Gujarat. BJP people have been bad mouthing her. Yet she has the courage to stay in the political arena.
But NO i do not want her to become the Prime Minister of India. I dont have a problem if she becomes a Union Minister though or holds power from the background.
I am sure you know that BJP is no better than Congress when it comes to Scams: Petrol Pump, Land Allotments to RSS, Tehelka,...

[Pakka Desi]

Giving a person the ability to choose his religion is different than befooling him into converting to another. That's what these guys are doing. They are undermining our culture. If they have the money power, we have the will power.
Neither BJP nor RSS is a hate group. We are termed as one because we are showing the true colors of Muslim and Christian organization. All these years they have been playing theor trick, but nobody is calling them as hate groups. Now that Hindus are realizing this and rising against it, you are calling us hate groups. Well, can't expect anything else from you.
How do you convert a person BTW? By making him believe that his current religion is bad. I think that is a hate group.
If they have the right to further their religion by using money, we have the right to prevent their conversions by all the means we have.
In any case, this is what I believe in. Call me fundamentalist, but I want to prevent my culture from getting destroyed by Muslims and Christians. They are free to practice whatever religion they want but not at the cost of Hindus. Unlike Islam or Christianity, we do not believe in converting the whole world to Hinduism. All we want to do is to protect ourselves. India's poor are India's problem, our problem and we'll take care of it. We don't need missionaries to do that for us. Neither did we invite them. They came here on their own free will and they are free to go back. Nobody is forcing them to help. They got a free reign under the british rule. Not anymore.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by Amitabh Sharma:

She and the Gandhi family have made great sacrifices for the nation.

Yeah right. Nehru got India dismembered and Rajiv Gandhi became the PM only because of the sympathy factor. He was well educated and had a thumping majority in the parliament. He could have done so much for the country. He owed it to the people but he did not do anything except making his bank balance. Except Indira Gandhi, who truely was the Iron lady and whose death was really unfortunate, the gandhi family has done nothing for the country. Even if it did, it does not give any right to Sonia Gandhi. She did not even become an Indian citizen until it was absolutely necessary. After living so many years in India, she still does not know Hindi.
Yes, I agree that BJP is not doing any great either but it is definitly better than the congress. It came to power due to support from RSS. However, if it does not perform, it has to go.

[Amitabh Sharma]

Pakka I agree with you on the issue of conversion. Exposing planned conversions on could be done by the media. India should frame a law banning conversions done on a mass level such as the whole village converts on one fine day.
At the same time I dont feel so insecure about hindu religion or culture. Infact I feel there is a lot of good in the Hindu religion and indian culture that is bound to spread to the other parts of the world simply because it is good stuff.
India is a undoubtedly a cool country. Others are learning from us. For instance Pakistanis are trying to become democratic and so on. There is absolutely no need for India to become like them. Give them a chance to become like us. RSS wants to build a Hindu Pakistan out of India. I prefer India as it is.

[Dave Vick]

OK, I think you need serious help. Or someone has 'brainwashed' you...

Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
Giving a person the ability to choose his religion is different than befooling him into converting to another.

OK, first off we are talking about religion here right?! There is no 'befooling', if you are trying to get someone to convert to your religion you are going to tell them your beliefs and why you think they are right. You're not fooling anyone, you trying to convince them of something. There is no monetary gain involved, no-one is keeping score of the number of converts you get and rewarding you for it (at least not with $$) so there is no reason for someone to lie to someone else. If a persons' goal is to go out and fool people I can think of quite a few other ways to do it that don't involve flying all over the world, living under some pretty bad conditions, and opening yourself up to physical and verbal abuse, not to mention the time and effort involved.

That's what these guys are doing. They are undermining our culture. If they have the money power, we have the will power.

Actualy it seems to me like they are trying to preserve life and give those people a chance at a better existence. If this counts as undermining your culture then maybe you need to seek some help for your paranoia. If you think they are fooling these people then you have every chance to go in and help the people yourself and then you can try to convince them of your ideas and beliefs. On the other hand if no-one does anything then everyone loses, most of all the people who would have benefited from the aid given.
Like Jason mentioned, these people are free to believe anything they like, no-one can force them to belive anything. If they are smart and they don't believe then they are just accepting what aid they can get, nodding their heads and waving good-bye when the missionaries leave. There is no need to kill or hurt anyone - biting the hand that feeds you comes to mind.

All these years they have been playing theor trick, but nobody is calling them as hate groups.

Umm, maybe because hey haven't killed anyone.

How do you convert a person BTW? By making him believe that his current religion is bad.

OK, that is one way. The other, and more generally accepted, way is to convince them that your way is better. Telling someone their way is wrong is a lot harder than convincing them that another way is better. Those may sound like the same thing but they aren't, think about it...

If they have the right to further their religion by using money, we have the right to prevent their conversions by all the means we have.

Including killing people Now that is definately extremist. I'm sure you'll get just the kind of converts you want with that philosphy. < need that sarcasm smiley again />

They are free to practice whatever religion they want but not at the cost of Hindus.

Since these people are not out there killing Hindus I assume that by 'not at the cost of Hindus' you mean, not at the cost of converting Hindus to another religion. So, basically, your saying that you are right everyone else is wriong and if they try to convince anyone else of their beliefs you have the right to kill them? I sincerely hope I never meet you on the stret or anyone else that has you same philosophy. I can see it now:
me: Hi, how are you?
you: Good thanks. How are you?
me: Oh, I'm fine, thanks for asking. Nice day out isn't it?
you: No, it isn't, now die you lying dog...
I can see where you'll get a lot of converts that way.

All we want to do is to protect ourselves.

From all those maurauding missionaries? :roll:

We don't need missionaries to do that for us. Neither did we invite them. They came here on their own free will and they are free to go back. Nobody is forcing them to help. They got a free reign under the british rule. Not anymore.

And if they choose to stay then you'll just kill the all?! Good, choice, I'm sure that'll win a lot of friends and people that want to help.
You may be a fundamentalist, but you're also extreme and sound like you're also quite a bit dangerous to anyone who disagrees with you - I'm glad that you are in the minority.
[ October 11, 2002: Message edited by: Dave Vick ]

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by Dave Vick:

OK, first off we are talking about religion here right?! There is no 'befooling', if you are trying to get someone to convert to your religion you are going to tell them your beliefs and why you think they are right. You're not fooling anyone, you trying to convince them of something. There is no monetary gain involved, no-one is keeping score of the number of converts you get and rewarding you for it (at least not with $$) so there is no reason for someone to lie to someone else.

Dave, your theroy is correct but you have absolutely no idea what goes in India under the pretence of running orphanages and schools.

You may be a fundamentalist, but you're also extreme and sound like you're also quite a bit dangerous to anyone who disagrees with you - I'm glad that you are in the minority.

A country can be challenged in many ways. Cultural invasion is one such way. And I am trying to protect my country from that. I have no objections in accepting new things but if somebody is trying to destroy my culture ..that too by playing tricks instead of merits, I can't stand that.
If you are implying that I am as dangerous as suicide bombers, then no. I am not into that stuff. I do not support burning people alive either.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by Dave Vick:


And if they choose to stay then you'll just kill the all?

Hey, why do you always have to assume that if somebody does not accept your views then the only option he has is to kill you???
There are a lot better ways to counteract the cultural invasion than to burn people alive.
The best way, I believe, is education and awareness. That is what RSS is doing, we go out in remote villages and trouble places and provide education and spread awareness about our own culture. The culture that the people already belong to but they have forgotten. On one hand we are trying to improve our own culture by eliminating castism and on the other hand we are telling people what missionaries are doing.
RSS cadre has always been the first to help out whenever any natural calamity has hit India. I am sure, many Indians here can atest it.
You don't have to assume that if RSS is going against missionaries than it must be bombing or burning people. We are fighting this battle at the mental level, because that's how we can make the most impact. We want to bring awareness and pride among our people about their own intrinsic culture. As we do that, missionaries will automatically fail. Earlier they had the support of the rulers, Moguls and the British. Now, they don't.

[Michael Ernest]

You can always find someone whose ultimate agenda seems to be "destroying the culture of India," I suppose, but it seems more reasonable and civilized to assume they merely want to spread what they perceive to be the benefits of their own culture.
Anyone who characterizes proselytizing in missionaries and relief programs as "destruction" of their culture, in my view, really shouldn't be too surprised by anxieties that the response might be equally destructive (bombing and killing). You've done your part to ratchet up the rhetoric, and you should own the consequences of it. Why not just bring it down a notch?
Judging by the anti-American rhetoric of people like Arundhati Roy and others, everything American is offensive. Missionaries with an alleged cultural agenda, that's one thing. But even food drops get ridiculed by some as overtly offensive, insensitive acts.
As a country that has no roots other than the one that expresses the combined roots of its inhabitants, Americans on the whole believe they should help others. The amount of money that poured into WTC relief funds, to me, was just staggering. Government aid to other countries is a huge package, but simple domestic aid through relief programs and missions is no small amount. And yes, some of those programs intend to spread a message: that's nothing new here either, because it is the faith that compels some people to help in the first place.
None of those people are about to apologize for bringing the strength of their economic resources to people in need. They want to help, and what some of them seek in return is a way to share their way of life along with the means of life.
And I can imagine if we didn't have people doing those sorts of things, the accusations of the fat, greedy Americans would be just a little more intense than it already is. Personally I think it's remarkable how many people look past such critics and do what they can in the name of humanity anyway. There are a lot of relief efforts out there whose very last concern is being well thought-of -- they just want to feed and educate people and help give their children a better shot at survival.

[R K Singh]

So while you may not appreciate foreigners coming in and feeding, clothing, educating, and providing health care to these people, I'm sure the beneficiaries of the aid are thankful for it.

food, clothes, education, money etc, missionaries do give all these things. Do you think, they give it for free ??
Then why do they want to convert them in Chritianity ???
Why only who converts get a home and shop ?
Why only tribals & poor are being converted.
You dont know what is happening ? You have only outer view of it.
And as Pakka has asked, they came here in british time and thats why still they are here.

Further, I think it's amusing how you think so little of your "poor" as people, that you do not credit them with the ability to choose what religion they want to follow.

Thats where you are wrong ? If someone chooses any other religion, there is nothing wrong.
But question of chosing comes when you have option?
Do you thing missionaries give food, clothes, money just like that???
Options are closed by providing these and FYI they are given money after conversion.
May I know, why is money given after conversion.
And as I told earlier, for them there is no diffrence in Ram & Jesus. They even dont know ABC of Bible or what is Christianity.
They convert themselves just for money and just put a picture of Jesus in their drawing room and shop. What is philosphy of Christianity they dont know.Is this you call, abilty to choose religion.
So IMHO, missionaries are out in this world to buy religion of poor people.
And money they get from Christian countries.
I would also like to donate money to these missionaries but only if they dont force/buy someone's religion.
[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[R K Singh]

:
Americans on the whole believe they should help others. The amount of money that poured into WTC relief funds, to me, was just staggering. Government aid to other countries is a huge package, but simple domestic aid through relief programs and missions is no small amount. And yes, some of those programs intend to spread a message: that's nothing new here either, because it is the faith that compels some people to help in the first place.

Whether I ask for help or not I will get help cause uncle Sam is out to help everyone
Uncle Sam, plesae wait for my call, please dont help me when I am not asking for it.
Thanks for your help but no thanks. When I will need help I will get back to you.

[R K Singh]

There is no 'befooling', if you are trying to get someone to convert to your religion you are going to tell them your beliefs and why you think they are right. You're not fooling anyone, you trying to convince them of something.

First af all, why do you want to convince someone on something.
and then there way of convincing is so great that no one can say NO. How can someone say NO to Rs. 2 lakhs, when he cannot even earn Rs.10 a day.
I will also convert in to chirstianity if you pay me 100 million $. But as I am expensive, you go to lower market where in 100 million $ you can buy 1 lakh people.
Is it bussiness or religion ??