whats wrong with this picture?

[Randall Twede]

the US is home to less than 5% of the worlds population yet it houses 1/4 of the worlds prisoners.

[Anonymous]

I dunno. Maybe this should be the right mix of home to prisoners that every country should have. US is the only country with patriot missle. US is the country that give us The Matrix. US is the country that gives us movies like 'Hero' starring Dustin Hoffman.........

[ersin eser]

http://library.nothingness.org/articles/SA/en/display/350

[Kevin Thompson]

This is an interesting post.
The trouble is that most Americans are duped by the "Drug Warrior Industry"(drug police, the DEA, the Drug Czar, etc), that benefits from the drug holocaust that is occuring in the USA.
Throwing victimless criminals in prison for life, stripping them of their assets, forcing them to work against their will, is all sort of like the Holcaust during WWII in Europe. Yeah, they are not gassed in prisons, but their lives are destroyed in prison.
I have been substitute teaching in the Elementary Schools and that "DARE" crap is all over the walls & anti-drug propaganda is everywhere.
I wish the schools could teach history, like the history of alcohol prohibition, and the reasons why people voted to end alcohol prohibition. Like it corrupted the police, led to organized crime, caused violence & misery, and of course IT DID NOT WORK WHATSOEVER.
The best thing we can do to make the world free and the US free, is to legalize drugs now.
The only people in prison should be legitimate criminals (i.e. people who commited real crimes, not victim-less crimes.)
Kevin Thompson

[Jason Menard]

I would not say that those who support a drug trade that results in untold deaths all over the world each year are engaging in a victimless crime. Nor would I say that drug users placing a strain on the health care system and economy (I believe studies have been done showing that drug users are more frequently absent from work and generally less productive employees) are engagin in victimless activities. The problems with drugs do not all stem from the fact that they are illegal.

[Dave Vick]

Victimless?!?!
You're either very misinformed, live under a rock, are a troll, or do some serious drugs yourself....
Not withstanding what Jason mentioned, what about all of the people that are mugged, murdered, have their homes, cars, and offices broken into all so some addict can get their next fix?
What about people that are afraid to walk the streets of their own neighborhoods at night for fear of being assaulted by some drug dealer or user that needs some quick cash.
Dont tell me that having it legal would releive these problems either. Making it legal doesn't make it any less addicting and would most likely not reduce the cost all that much either. Making it legal would just get more people to try it and get hooked on them. Which would just make the situation worse.
I'd rather throw them in jail or get them some treatment if they have not done anything more serious than the actual drug use. Either way it is the tax payers that pick up the bill... the cost of jailing them, the cost of the treatment, the cost of their unemployment because they can't hold a job, the cost of their medical treatment , the cost of supporting their kids because they obviously can't do it themselves...
victimless....

[Shura Balaganov]

victims, shmictims....someone's gotta clean the sh$t, put roads through tundra and jungle, harvest Uranium... don't you see, we need more prisoners! Who's going to serve your burger?
Note to myself...live more tips in restaurants...
Shura
P.S. chill, folks, it was just a joke
[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]

[Dave Vick]

I agree Shura, the only problem is that having them do anything more than watching cable TV, reading books, and getting free legal advice is considered 'cruel and unusual' and they aren't allowed to make them do it.
The problem is that when the constitution was written things like being drawn and quartered, tared and feathered, or the rack and hot irons were considered normal punishment. I think burning at the stake was cruel and unusual for anyone but a witch . The point is that todays prisoners have no idea what cruel and unusual is except when the TV is broken or if they get a warm pop for dinner not a cold one. I blame the lawyers for this (gotta blame someone).
Making the prisoners do a little work, even if it is dangerous, might make them think twice. Unlike the current corrections system that doesn't work for sh**.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Dave Vick:
I blame the lawyers for this (gotta blame someone).

Personally, I blame the liberals.

[Tom Hughes]

Originally posted by Dave Vick:

Not withstanding what Jason mentioned, what about all of the people that are mugged, murdered, have their homes, cars, and offices broken into all so some addict can get their next fix?

I agree with Kevin, although I think maybe you need to make a distinction between addictive 'hard drugs' and recreational drugs. Many, many people regularly take drugs like pot, ecstasy, speed and LSD and do no harm to anyone. In these cases they are commiting a victimless crime. In these cases the illeagility of the substances has the effect of putting money in criminals pockets, using up police resources, underworld deaths (turf wars etc), decreasing the quality of the substance (increasing the chance of deaths/illness), filling up the prisons and making taking drugs more appealing (Cannabis use among Dutch people in Holland has fallen since it has been made legal)
As for the claim of the drain on taxpayers money, I'm also not so sure. In the case of cigarettes (one of the legal recreational drugs...) in the UK, the tax the government receives from cigarette sales (�7.6 billion excluding VAT) far exceeds what smoking costs the NHS each year (�1.5 billion). Figures from
I'm undecided on whether hard, addictive drugs like crack should be legal, I think this is a different arguement altogether.
my 2p worth....
Tom
[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tom Hughes ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Tom Hughes:
I agree with Kevin, although I think maybe you need to make a distinction between addictive 'hard drugs' and recreational drugs. Many, many people regularly take drugs like pot, ecstasy, speed and LSD and do no harm to anyone. In these cases they are commiting a victimless crime.

Society is the victim. I couldn't imagine working next to somebody who even uses recreational drugs. As I said previously, and I don't have a link handy to back it up, from what I understand there are studies that show that drug users are more prone to absenteeism and other employment related difficulties. Why would we want these people becoming more prevalent in our society? Then you have other costs to society. Drunk driving is a bad problem as it is, do we also want to increase the number of people on the roads who are under the influence of drugs? I have yet to see any persuasive argument to legalize any drug, whether some consider it recreational or not. Most of these arguments fall back to alcohol being legal. You would think we would learn from alcohol and its tremendous societal costs.

[Tom Hughes]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Society is the victim.

I agree, but society is also the victim when drugs are illeagal too , the question is, which is the lesser of the two evils ? If we limit the discussion to one drug, cannabis - I think there is a very strong arguement for its legalisation (for reasons outlined above).
Your point on absenteeism - for me, if my colleague is say a drunk, and misses lots of days off work - It doesn't affect me, it's his life and his decision. If he can't perform well enough in his job then he/she will get fired. Their choice.

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

I couldn't imagine working next to somebody who even uses recreational drugs.

You mean you work entirely with non smoking tea totallers ? Must be a fun office... (joke)

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Tom Hughes:
You mean you work entirely with non smoking tea totallers ? Must be a fun office... (joke)

The joys of working in an environment where personnel are subjected to random drug tests and other means to help ensure this is the case.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Tom Hughes:
Your point on absenteeism - for me, if my colleague is say a drunk, and misses lots of days off work - It doesn't affect me, it's his life and his decision.

It would effect you if you were expected to carry his work load!

[Tom Hughes]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

The joys of working in an environment where personnel are subjected to random drug tests and other means to help ensure this is the case.

So none of them drink alcohol, coffee, tea or smoke cigarettes ? Really ?
[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tom Hughes ]

[Kevin Thompson]

The war on drugs is a war on the constitution and our individual freedoms. We have lost alot of our rights already.
Questions for the drug warriors here:
1. Should cigarettes be made illegal(like heroin is illegal)? Because cigarettes kill many more people than all the illegal drugs combined.
2. Should alcohol be made illegal(like heroin is illegal?) Because alcohol kills many more people than all the illegal drugs combined.
That is the truble with the drug laws. It makes no sense! Jibberish! The only people who benefit are the people who use the drug war to make a living - DEA Agents, federal judges, local police departments who get to keep seized cars, property,etc.
All the drug warriors here should read about alcohol prohibition. Read why it was a total and complete failure and why it was repealed. It acutally CAUSED MURDERS, CAUSED THE ORGANIZATION OF THE MOB, CORRUPTED THE POLICE, AND DID NOT WORK.
It is hardly even debatable. Look up some history! Do it NOW! It will be so good for you.
I know for a fact that kids do not learn US History. All that they get is that DARE crap in the schools.
Kevin Thompson

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Tom Hughes:
So none of them drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes ?

I wouldn't argue too hard if those were both illegal, however they are not. The pasture gates have long since been opened on those drugs and it is too late to put the horses back in the barn, so to speak. But just because we cannot effectively regulate one set of things that is generally harmful to society as a whole, that does not mean we should cease regulating other things which we know are harmful to society as a whole.

[Tom Hughes]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

I wouldn't argue too hard if those were both illegal, however they are not. The pasture gates have long since been opened on those drugs and it is too late to put the horses back in the barn, so to speak. But just because we cannot effectively regulate one set of things that is generally harmful to society as a whole, that does not mean we should cease regulating other things which we know are harmful to society as a whole.

I agree. I should point out that I don't subscribe to that arguement or the "alcohol is legal, other drugs should be legal" arguement.
But you said this :
I couldn't imagine working next to somebody who even uses recreational drugs
It can't be that hard to imagine - you do anyway !!
[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tom Hughes ]
[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Tom Hughes ]

[Tom Hughes]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
It would effect you if you were expected to carry his work load!

Inasmuch as if I worked with anyone who couldn't perform at the required level. For instance maybe my work colleague has such a bad diet that it affects his concentration levels - lets make burgers illeagal !!
I guess this comes down to an issue of civil liberties. I believe I have the right to treat my body as I like, as long as I don't affect others in an unreasonable way.

[Randall Twede]

i kind of figured this might end up a discussion about drugs. im sure at least part of the reason the US has 5 times as many of its citizens behind bars is because of this. im not sure if that is the only reason though. im also not convinced that it is because we have that much more "real" crime either, although i do believe we lead the pack in that category. my concern is that perhaps there is something basic that is "wrong" with our society. another concern is that we will lose the rights that our forefathers fought and died for. there is a good arguement to be made that passing laws against posessing a certain plant or injesting a certain substance is a crime is unconstitutional. also there is a big propaganda effort to outlaw the possesion of firearms. i saw a headline the other day when i started AOL (before i minimized it) that said "guns killed **** people this year". ********! guns dont kill people, people kill people. as far as our elected officials are concerned, the constitution and bill of rights are nothing more than pieces of paper that they can edit at their whim.
[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

[Randall Twede]

good grief! if you have to edit out the word BS at least use different characters than the wildcard i used to signify a number i couldnt remember :roll: