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Did Russian special force do a good job in resuing hostage ?

 
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It has been confirmed that 115 hostages died from the chemical gas used by the Russian special force during the rescue. Only 2 hostages died directly from gun shot. My feeling is: Although Russia has made big progress in democracy, the long time rooted communist party philosophy never puts human being at the first place, the power and control weighs more than people's life value.
 
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115 out of ~800
 
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When the Iranian's held the US citzens captive in the US Embassy, did you think Jimmy Carter was
an effective leader?
 
Leverager of our synergies
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Abadula, I do not disagree with your conclusion, otherwise we did not have this senseless Chechen war, and there wouldn't be a need to save anybody in the first place. But regarding this particular event, what do you think should have been done, considering the place was full of explosives, and kamikadze were put among hostages with their finger on buttons? From what I read in the news, terrorists promised to start to kill people in the morning, and after first shots had been heard, military decided to storm the building. The gas, physicians said, isn't lethal - if people weren't weakened by stress, hunger etc. And it was used in closed space, terrorists blocked ventilation by putting explosives there... "did a good job" should be better formulated as "was it possible to do better in such circumstances"? - and probably everybody now is asking the same question. One of our former prime ministers said at the dawn of "perestroika": "we wanted to do our best, and it turned out as usual"...
Then, I would not be too much surprised to see polls saying that in spite of all the lost lives, this outcome brought some satisfaction to the population (minus relatives and friends of victims, of course ) -- because we already had two similar teracts with hostages and buildings blown up in Moscow - and in all cases culprits could get away with it.
 
High Plains Drifter
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Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
When the Iranian's held the US citzens captive in the US Embassy, did you think Jimmy Carter was
an effective leader?


When the WTC and Pentagon were struck, did you question George Bush's leadership?
 
tumbleweed
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It amazes me that the only thread about the freeing of Moscow hostages is a criticism.
Where are the threads sympathizing with the Russians relatives and the Russian nation as whole about the loss of their country men.
My thoughts are with them.
 
Anonymous
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First I must confess that I was one of the special forces that storm the building with those hostages. I was called to stand in with the russians. During the storming process, I tripped and fell all over my Uzi. Otherwise the hostages wouldn't have died so soon. I'm too ashamed to tell you of my nationality. Please forgive me. I intend to shave my head bald to become a monk after this incident. I just can't forgive myself. I would gladly have the police lock me up if they cared to. Please do not blame me anymore. I'm feeling too remoreseful even if you think that my other special forces colleagues don't feel a thing; they actually do feel.
 
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It must have been humungous job to carry so many unconcious hostages and load them up in ambulance. I suspect there may have been some planning irregularities and doctors were not expecting what they saw. If anything could be doen to prevent initial confusion, some people may have survived.
 
Michael Ernest
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The news I read reported some kind of general anaesthetic was piped into the air system for the theater.
So you have frightened people, weak from lack of food and water, probably kept confined to their chairs for much of their captivity, and some number of them unable to tolerate a high degree of stress. You then poison them with a powerful neurotoxin, under the premise that you have to knock out the rebels who may in fact be very fit and provisioned themselves for several days.
I find it hard to believe the Russian government didn't estimate hostage casualties here, as one would in any military operation. Whether the final death toll met their expectations or not we probably won't learn. After the fact, however, a 15-20% loss of life may in fact have been an "acceptable" number to the government.
You could accuse the Russian government of valuing its position against negotiating with terrorists over Russian lives, sure, sure. But ask yourself: considering the position of the Chechens who took the theater, and their vow to die for their cause, what would you have done differently? Who is it, you think, that is going to talk the terrorists out of their position?
It's turning into a hell of a world where people are prepared for pointless displays of desperation like this one.
 
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The Russians were put in a terrible, practically no-win situation. While the Russians do have to take responsibility for the methods they choose to use to end such a crisis, the blame lays squarely at the feet of the terrorists. The Russians did what they felt they had to. I seriously doubt they expected the high mortality rate, and I know there are many of them who will be second guessing themselves for the rest of their lives. My deepest sympathies lie with the hostages, the rescuers, and all of their families.
 
mister krabs
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Would everyone who is complaining about how the Russians handled this be happier if the terrorists killed all the hostages? I think the Russians did an impressive job of saving as many as they did.
 
Abadula Joshi
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Would everyone who is complaining about how the Russians handled this be happier if the terrorists killed all the hostages? I think the Russians did an impressive job of saving as many as they did.


When the special force started their mission, only 2 hostages had been killed when they tried to escape. I don't know what's the background for you to assume "All of the hostages" would be killed if the special force didn't started this rescue mission in this "special" way ? What is the evidence that the criminal "had started" their plan of killing "all of the hostages" ?
In history, all the criminals threaten to kill hostages, but they rarely kill "all of them" at one time, who would be so stupid to use up all of their bargain power ? They know hostages is their only power so they use it very carefully. When the criminals set some deadline, there is usually some way to extend the "deadline" by bargaining (Indian government did a good job in negotiating with airplane hijackers), do you think Russian has done the best job in negotiating ? And how do you know that ?
All I am trying to say is: we may want to ask these questions instead of fully accept what Russian government said.
 
Rufus BugleWeed
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When the WTC and Pentagon were struck, did you question George Bush's leadership?


Oh yeah...
I think Condolezza Rice and the head of the FAA
both need to be fired. I don't know if it's the
territory or a run of bad luck but the FBI has
earned a lot of bad press in the last five years.
While it's real satisfying to many to whip up
on terrorist in Afghanistan, charity begins at
home.
I'm much more impressed with Bush's proactive
stance on Iraq.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Abadula Joshi:

When the special force started their mission, only 2 hostages had been killed when they tried to escape. I don't know what's the background for you to assume "All of the hostages" would be killed if the special force didn't started this rescue mission in this "special" way ? What is the evidence that the criminal "had started" their plan of killing "all of the hostages" ?


Apart from the fact that they were wired up like suicide bombers, had booby trapped the building and had professed their willingness to become martyrs?
 
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While the death of innocents should be avoided at all costs but desperate situations call for desperate measures. I hope the Russians did not do this just to make a point.
 
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Originally posted by Abadula Joshi:

Indian government did a good job in negotiating with airplane hijackers


Frankly , Abadula ...I dont agree with you there. Its a disgrace if all the hijackers are allowed to get away . A couple of lives would have been lost there .But its riduculous to say that these hijackers will not kill again . In the long run I think the Russian handling was much better than the Indians handling the hijack.
 
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What I don't understand is the report that they killed all the (unconscious) terrorists. They might instead of captured them alive, and then tortured them to reveal the names and hideouts of their colleagues back in Chechnya.
Some of the kidnappers were reputed to be wives of killed terrorists. I hope it doesn't get to the point where even the families of terrorists have to be killed.
 
Greenhorn
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Abadula :
"All I am trying to say is: we may want to ask these questions instead of fully accept what Russian government said."
So dude, you are in favor of the Chechen terrorists. We understand your stated position.
Our question is, are in favor of Al Queida also?
Where do you make the money you need to eat and pay for your abode? Assuming you are not on some kind of welfare?
TX, USA maybe?
[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: George Miller ]
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Abadula Joshi:
Indian government did a good job in negotiating with airplane hijackers


I don't think I would consider giving into the hijackers demands and releasing prisoners as fine negotiation. In truth, we can thank the Indian government in some small way for 9/11, as one of the people they released from prison soon after provided funding to the 9/11 terrorists. Pretty pathetic and spineless on the part of their government in that particular situation, IMHO.
 
Thomas Paul
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Abadula Joshi:
Indian government did a good job in negotiating with airplane hijackers


If you consider giving them everything they want to be good negotiating. Most of us consider that an invitation to future terrorist activity.
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

In truth, we can thank the Indian government in some small way for 9/11, as one of the people they released from prison soon after provided funding to the 9/11 terrorists. Pretty pathetic and spineless on the part of their government in that particular situation, IMHO.


Good that you noticed that truth, Jason.
I agree, it was pretty pathetic, spineless action from Indian government. But then how could they act otherwise? There was this heavy pressure from USA to 'practice restraint' every time RAW or any other agency comes up with proper information about many of these terrorist activities near Indian borders for decades now. That too just a mile away from India's boarders.
Al-queda with the help of their supporting countries successfully executed a plot against most powerful country of the world ? USA - that too all way across the globe. Can we expect a better chance for such a ?third world country? like India, which is just a stone throw away from them?
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Pranav Jaidka:

In the long run I think the Russian handling was much better than the Indians handling the hijack.


Russians had the benefit of having the whole drama unfolding right on their backyard. The hijacked aircraft was landed in Kandhadhar, in Afghanistan, then controlled by Taliban. India never approved Taliban administration ever before. Needless to say relations between Indian administration and Taliban was minimal where as Taliban had good (very good) reasons (or were obliged) to listen to Pakistan.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Ashok Manayangath:
But then how could they act otherwise?


I think the cold hard truth is that when terrorists take hostages to further their goals, while every reasonable attempt should be taken to secure the hostages safety, for the good of the country as a whole terrorists cannot be negotiated with and the hostages are unfortunately expendable.

Al-queda with the help of their supporting countries successfully executed a plot against most powerful country of the world ? USA - that too all way across the globe. Can we expect a better chance for such a ?third world country? like India, which is just a stone throw away from them?


On one hand I agree with you. It is easy for us to say when we are relatively secluded from most of them, although plenty live within our borders and in Canada I'm certain. On the other hand, the situation as it applies to India also applies to Russia, and they refuse to negotiate with terrorists, regardless of the fact that they are only a stone's throw away from them.
 
Abadula Joshi
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Posted by George --

So dude, you are in favor of the Chechen terrorists. We understand your stated position.
Our question is, are in favor of Al Queida also?
Where do you make the money you need to eat and pay for your abode? Assuming you are not on some kind of welfare?
TX, USA maybe?


George, I am wondering what will happen if you are appointed to be a judge in the court...
Abadula
 
Ritu Kama
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----------------------
On the other hand, the situation as it applies to India also applies to Russia, and they refuse to negotiate with terrorists, regardless of the fact that they are only a stone's throw away from them
----------------------
What kind of negotiation can anybody do with terrorists? Any ideas.
Any ideas on what kind of negotiations US did with Osama bin laden after 9/11
It is very easy to judge other people and other countries - specially if you are not directly effected and your homes are not being bombed.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Ritu Kama:
----------------------
On the other hand, the situation as it applies to India also applies to Russia, and they refuse to negotiate with terrorists, regardless of the fact that they are only a stone's throw away from them
----------------------
What kind of negotiation can anybody do with terrorists? Any ideas.
Any ideas on what kind of negotiations US did with Osama bin laden after 9/11
It is very easy to judge other people and other countries - specially if you are not directly effected and your homes are not being bombed.


I am confused as to what you are trying to say. In the first paragraph, you seem to agree with my belief that you should not negotiate with terrorists. In the second paragraph.. well, I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that we shouldn't judge India harshly for caving into terrorist demands? If this is what you are saying (and I'm not sure it is), then since we were directly affected by events which transpired at least in some small way as a result of that incident, then I don't see any problem with putting in our two cents on the matter. Anyway, if you could clarify it would be appreciated.
[ November 01, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
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