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Existentialism

 
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All your sartres and camuses are sick puppies. My best and closest and I know her from 16 girlfriend is pregnant from a man nobody would want to propagate, and I know too well what the decision to keep a child or not can make to you. You guys can argue forever to excute the sniper or not and if yes then how, but you have no idea what it involves when the life is inside of you, and I am not going to tell you either, because I have no illusion I can be ever heard.
 
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I'm not sure what you are saying. But for what it's worth, I would be opposed to abortion.
 
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
but you have no idea what it involves when the life is inside of you,


Sometime I feel jealous of females, they are superior then male.
They can feel a whole universe inside, can feel it growing and then see it in real, which we male cant
If ever I get a chance I would love to experience, how does it feels to eveolve a whole universe (a child) inside you.
And obviously I am not interested in your experience, I want to feel it for myself. Which I cant to do in this birth
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I'm not sure what you are saying.


101 % agree with you TP
but I took out one point of my interest.
 
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
All but you have no idea what it involves when the life is inside of you


What do you mean we have no idea, we have lots of worm, viruses and bacteria inside us and we can really feel them isnt it folks
 
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Revulsion for abortion seems like a quaintly American invention -- even though the RC church pounds its fist over contraception in general, they don't try to impose the control some states do. Interesting how it always seems to be men that romanticize conception, and that it often seems to signal some form of control politics.
I see most informed women as well-grounded in their bodies. If anything, they are more emotionally invested in the implications of becoming pregnant, and at the same time more practical (their bodies, their lives).
Abortion is something no one gets happy and proud over, but I think it's important woman have a right to end a pregnancy when it's in her best interests, unless of course the medical risks outweigh it.
[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]
 
R K Singh
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Abortion should be avoided...
cause if one goes for abortion, one is destroying the whole identity and philosphy.
But obviously a woman/family is free to do what they want to do.
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Abortion is something no one gets happy and proud over, but I think it's important woman have a right to end a pregnancy when it's in her best interests, unless of course the medical risks outweigh it.

I guess the interest's of the child don't mean much.
I was reading the book, "Expecting Adam". The author, Martha Beck, has a PhD from Harvard. While she was there, one of her fellow PhD candidates had an abortion because the due date was right around the same time as finals and it would have been too inconvenient to reschedule the finals. Beck found out about it because the women who had the abortion would brag about it as proof of her committment to her education.
According to one study, 98% of women who find they are carrying a child with Down syndrome choose abortion. One wonders how they will feel about their child if he is mentally retarded for one of the many reasons that is not diagnosable with prenatal testing.
As the human gene project finds more information we can expect more prenatal testing and more abortions. Will the child have schizophrnia? Be gay? Wrong eye color? (Don't laugh... I just read an article about a couple that had an abortion because the sperm donor they used had brown eyes and they wanted a child with blue eyes.) We live in a world that sees our children as commodities. As nothing more than designer objects to be customized to our whims. We are rapidly approaching a "Brave New World". I for one am not thrilled at the prospects.
 
Michael Ernest
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Abortion is a morally neutral medical procedure. It is open to misuse and abuse as much as any other medical procedure. But we already have laws that prohibit abortion at any stage of pregnancy without proper justification.
I've been reading, off and on, the various horror stories of callous, ambitious woman wantonly having themselves D&C'd so that yucky baby won't inconvenience them -- so, what, people can be callous and monstrous? Call 60 Minutes.
But I think it's premature to call a fetus a child (pun intended). The idea of abortion can turn your stomach, and that's fine, but I don't think legislating that choice away from others is the answer.
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
But we already have laws that prohibit abortion at any stage of pregnancy without proper justification.

Now I am confused. In NY a woman can have an abortion up to 24 weeks without any justification at all. It's her right, or didn't you know that?
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
But I think it's premature to call a fetus a child (pun intended).

Peter Singer, a professor at princeton, agrees with you. In fact, he wouldn't even call a 1 month old a child. He believes in post-birth abortion up to 60 days after birth.
 
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An ex-girlfriend of me is in the same situation. Being pregnant from someone who she doesn't wants to live with.
She discusses it with me with email. I am emotionally involved, but in the end its like that: For me its very interesting, for her it will have a very great impact on her life.
I have no childs and she tells things which are just wonderfull or sad: That she talks with no-born. That she misses a father who supports her with tenderness.
I knocked on my stomach and thought how would it be if someone else in there who isn't me. Very strange if you really think about that.
She won't abort, without any question. I would say that abortion or no is women-decision, but Tom had made some points. Genetical pragmatism is a horror.

Of a short time relationship of my cousin resulted a baby. She doesn't want to live with him, but for him its very important to see the baby and they have found an arrangement. So child or no have impact on fathers, too. For the overwhelming mayority of men having a daughter or son is much more important than sniper-discussion.
[ November 03, 2002: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
 
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I dont see the connection between existence and abortion
However, the Buddha advised paying no attention to such questions as "Do I exist?" or "Don't I exist?" for however you answer them, they lead to suffering and stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/notself2.html
 
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HTH
 
Mapraputa Is
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Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Abortion is a morally neutral medical procedure.


Mike, you are making a point, and I should say that I appreciate your position, because simply taking a choice away from a woman doesn't look as a solution to me either. Now, when we agree on this context, there is no need to say that abortion is "a morally neutral medical procedure" - you know it is not. What bothers me, is that a woman has to make a choice, and in spite of mountains of "culture" accommodated by mankind, in this choice she is ultimately left alone. There isn't much to guide her, and there is a lot to misguide, "inconvenient to reschedule the finals" -- um... Just how much does the society appreciate a woman who gave a birth to a child compared to a woman who got her PhD? Looks like hypocrisy to me.
[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Just how much does the society appreciate a woman who gave a birth to a child compared to a woman who got her PhD? Looks like hypocrisy to me.

To me the bigger question is, how do I live with myself? As the physicist, Richard Feynman was once told by his wife, "What do you care what other people think?" At the end of the day when you crawl into bed, will that sheepskin mean more to you than the love of a child that you brought into the world?
 
Michael Ernest
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

What bothers me, is that a woman has to make a choice, and in spite of mountains of "culture" accommodated by mankind, in this choice she is ultimately left alone. There isn't much to guide her, and there is a lot to misguide...


We make choices all the the time where we ultimately "stand alone" with the results. Pregnancy is a big one, sure, and I take it seriously. But people make that choice, and they make it everyday. Focussing on the monumental life choice, fraught with possibility of error...I don't see what that does for anybody.
For every story of an ambitious college student that can't hack the bummer of a child interfering with finals, Thomas, there's a story about some baby delivered at term and dumped in a trash can. So, please, enough with that. The real issue is making responsible choices, not decisions that change our lives on behalf of appeasing the society around us.
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
For every story of an ambitious college student that can't hack the bummer of a child interfering with finals, Thomas, there's a story about some baby delivered at term and dumped in a trash can.

And that is in spite of abortion being widely available at very low cost. So I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
 
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Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
But we already have laws that prohibit abortion at any stage of pregnancy without proper justification.


In Kansas where I live women can have an abortion up to but not including the 3rd trimester which is about 7 to 8 months and with no reason what so ever.
How sad... That is just so wrong to me.
 
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What I am about to display below will require a faith in God and the Holy Bible. Of course without these beliefs, the passages may not mean much, but here they are:
Jeremiah 1:4-5a: (4) The word of the LORD came to me saying, (5) "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart...."
Isaiah 49:1b, 5a: (1) ...Before I was born the LORD called me.... (5) And now the LORD says´┐Ż he who formed me to be his servant....
Genesis 25:22-23a: (22) The babies jostled each within her, and she said, "Why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the LORD. (23) The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated...."
Luke 1:44: As soon as your [Mary's] greetings reached my [Elizabeth's] ears, the baby [John] in my womb leaped for joy."
"Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward" (Psalm 127:3).
The Bible teaches that the child in the womb is truly a human child, who even has a relationship with the Lord.
The phrase "conceived and bore" is used repeatedly (see Genesis 4:1,17) and the individual has the same identity before as after birth. "In sin my mother conceived me," the repentant psalmist says in Psalm 51:7. The same word is used for the child before and after birth (Brephos, that is, "infant," is used in Luke 1:41 and Luke 18:15.)
 
Michael Ernest
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And that is in spite of abortion being widely available at very low cost. So I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.


My point is that by reporting low human behavior, we make a case neither for nor against abortion as a technique. And yes, Mags, I maintain the position that the technique itself is morally netrual. How a woman (or couple) chooses to avoid or terminate an unwanted pregnancy is where the moral value lies.
Thomas, was it your point earlier that the availability of abortion contributes to cavalier attitudes about conception, or was I just anticipating that from you?
As for Kansas, again, the question to me is not what the law allows, but rather whether people intend to act as blithely as this given interpretation permits. I think the federal courts are right to say this really should not be a decision made by the state. The line, such as it is, is generally held as the third trimester. Good call, bad call? I don't know, but they had to draw a line where individual judgment is outweighed by state interest.
[ November 04, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Thomas, was it your point earlier that the availability of abortion contributes to cavalier attitudes about conception, or was I just anticipating that from you?

That is my belief. But not just cavalier attitudes about conception but rather to life itself. I was reading a parenting magazine today and their was an advertisement for a doctor who will help you choose the sex of your child. I suppose if things don't work out quite right you can always abort and try again. I can't wait until the human genome project is finished so everyone can have exactly the child they want and we can get rid of all those unwanted children. Of course, abortion was supposed to get rid of unwanted children but that hasn't worked out quite right.
 
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What is actually sad is that not enough emphasis is given to adoption as a viable alternative. There is absolutley no shortage of people in this country who seek to adopt healty infants. IMHO, although not in absolutely all cases, abortion is generally the irresponsible choice. I guess there is nothing new about people being irresponsible though.
If the responsibility is not there during conception (on the part of both partners), I guess it's asking even more to then take some responsibility after the fact. I think part of the problem is that our society makes it too easy for people to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions in many facets of their lives.
I would think a somewhat happy middle ground might be found if we did not make abortion so easy. What I mean is that if there were nation-wide laws which mandated education and conseling for all parties involved (including partents of minors) regarding alternatives to abortion (particularly adoption), and mandated parental consent for minors, then at least we can hopefully ensure that people are making informed decisions. I know there are some states that have some of these laws, but not all of them by any means. I would think that the very least we should expect from people who choose this procedure is that their decision is an informed one.
 
Thomas Paul
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There is a waiting list of approximately 3 years for those wishing to adopt a child with Down syndrome. So it isn't just healthy kids that people are willing to adopt.
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I can't wait until the human genome project is finished so everyone can have exactly the child they want and we can get rid of all those unwanted children.


There is a movie called Gattaca, whose premise is the same.
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
There is a waiting list of approximately 3 years for those wishing to adopt a child with Down syndrome. So it isn't just healthy kids that people are willing to adopt.


I appologize. I wasn't meaning to imply that people are only willing to adopt healthy children, as I know that is definitely not the case. Acknowledging that while it is tougher to place older children sometimes, I guess what I should have said is that there are no shortage of people in this country seeking to adopt infants.
If anything there is a shortage of infants available for adoption. This to me is what makes abortion all the more tragic, and in most (but not all) cases a selfish and irresponsible choice. Not only does abortion take the life, or potential life depending on your defition, of an infant, it denies others who would willingly raise this child of a very precious gift. While the mother who is able to conceive and chooses abortion as a lifestyle choice flaunts this gift, there are others out there who are unable to conceive and would gladly bear her "burden".
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
To me the bigger question is, how do I live with myself? As the physicist, Richard Feynman was once told by his wife, "What do you care what other people think?" At the end of the day when you crawl into bed, will that sheepskin mean more to you than the love of a child that you brought into the world?


Unfortunately it can happen that it's her pregnancy that made her to look so deep into herself for the first time. And from what I read, a pregnant woman becomes open to outside influences for purely physiological reasons. What are these influences, seems that they can be better summarized as "no" than "yes" to me.

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
We make choices all the time where we ultimately "stand alone" with the results. Pregnancy is a big one, sure, and I take it seriously. But people make that choice, and they make it everyday.


Which choice do people make every day?
And yes, Mags, I maintain the position that the technique itself is morally netrual. How a woman (or couple) chooses to avoid or terminate an unwanted pregnancy is where the moral value lies.
Not sure I understand what you are saying. By "abortion" I mean an act rather than "the technique". "Morally neutral" -- perhaps I could agree with you here, it's something above morale.
My mother said she made four abortions before she had me, and perhaps this made her feeling of life... I cannot call it "cynical", and I cannot find a better word... Desperate? She managed to pass it (unwillingly, I am sure) to me, so do not think all those unborn children come at no price for women. Every time she kills a child she kills a part of herself, you can call it "morally neutral procedure", but it wont help.
 
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