Defining the term "anti-Americanism"

[Mapraputa Is]

On rare occasions it is being said that some of our posters demonstrate anti-American tendencies. As a response, those posters deny their being anti-American. Perhaps, we should come to agreement on what the meaning of "anti-American" is.
It started in this thread, and I copy few posts from there. If Shura wants to participate he can also copy his posts.
Jason Menard listed several definitions:
Paul Hollander, professor emeritus of sociology, University of Massachusetts-Amherst defined it as "a historically specific expression of a universal scapegoating impulse, a type of bias similar to racism, sexism and anti-Semitism, and a largely irrational, often visceral aversion to the United States and its government, domestic institutions, prevailing values, culture and people, fueled by a variety of frustrations and grievances." That's sounds pretty good I guess. I'm sure Prof Hollander is a smart man.
The following definition can be found in Webster's Unabridged Dictionary.

Opposed to the Americans, their
aims, or interests, or to the genius of American
institutions.

The American Heritage dictionary has the following definition:

Opposed or hostile to the government, official policies, or people of the United States.

To what extent does any of that apply, if any of it does?
Wiki houses this definition:

Anti-Americanism is strong disapproval or even hatred for the United States of America, its government, people, or its way of life. Such views can be based on any or all of a number of different attitudes, such as political (anti-imperialism), economic (anti-Capitalism), religious (anti-Christian, anti-secular), cultural (anti-Hollywood), or ethical (anti-"Western decadence"). It can be harbored by Americans themselves (who might prefer to use the term Usian) or by non-Americans.

One Internet denizen of no particular importance suggested the following are some of the indicator paramters of anti-Americanism on a particular message board:

1) Reference to past American actions or policies with an implication that Anti-American hate crimes, such as 911, are justified.
2) Claiming or implying a moral (or immoral) equivalence between the inadvertent deaths of Afghani civilians to the murder of innocents (e.g., the 911 barbarity).
3) Attributing OBL and his barbarian murderous ilk with the qualities of "freedom fighters" and "saviors."
4) Proposing an end to the Allied action without offering an alternative means to bring OBL and his ilk to justice or to stop their murderous rampage.
5) Assigning greater credibility to the pronouncements of OBL and his sycophants than to the statements of Allied leaders and representatives.

[Mapraputa Is]

My old post:
My own understanding is that me (and perhaps other, but I can be wrong here) understand "anti-American" as "non-Americans who has some irrational hostile bias that prevents then from seeing things clearly". In this understanding "anti-American" is somewhat close to "anti-Semite" or "racist" and isn't too nice to hear.
You (this was addressed to Jason Menard) seem (I can be wrong here, so please, comment) to understand "anti-American" in more "practical" sense, in "American Heritage's spirit:
"Opposed or hostile to the government, official policies, or people of the United States" if to put stress on "opposed" rather than "hostile" (the latter would bring us back to the first definition), and on "government, official policies" rather than on "people" (people tend to be opposed to each other on some personal basic. Why would I be opposed to Australian people? I can be opposed to some concrete Australian for specific reasons) You do not see this term as particularly offensive, more like "disagree with my political views". The main difference: there is certain moral colouring in the first case, and none in the second.

[ersin eser]

How about explaining Americanism first?

[Mapraputa Is]

Later thoughts:
It was thinking that perhaps "anti-American" is an analog of "anti-Soviet". It's not about people of the US or the USSR, it's a purely political term. The USSR was on a special mission in the world - to show mankind a way to the better future etc, via socialistic democracy that was superior to all other kinds of democracy etc. So there was definitely certain moral value in both "the Soviets" (good guys) and "anti-Soviets" (bad guys by definition, because they were against progress and better life for the whole mankind).
From what I observed, there is a tendency among some Americans (or many, or most - I do not have statistics) to perceive the USA on certain mission in the world. This tendency isn't as strong as it was with the USSR, yet I can detect some notion that American values are superior to... well, it was said "many other", but if we strike out those who essentially shares the same values (European civilization, Canada etc), then we are left with just "superior". From here those who oppose to those values (or just refuse to accept that American values are superior) are anti-American.
I apologize if this is too gross oversimplification or is totally incorrect.
I got this feeling from this exchange:
Mapraputa Is: These definitions are too broad.
Jason Menard: Really, why is that? Is it that they are too encompassing maybe? Is it that we don't wish to see these definitions applied to ourselves, that we might not view ourselves that way?
This bears some notion of accusation for me. "Do not wish to see ... be applied" - definition either work for me (are applicable) or not. I would not "wish" this definition to be applied to me if I saw something shameful in being "anti-American". Here I would note that for real anti-Americans it's not a shame, they would state their anti-Americanism with proud. So when people say they do not see themselves as "anti-American", I would believe them.
--------------------------------------
"I'd like to persuade you, if I can, that any such disagreement might be more apparent than real"
Chris Date

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by ersin eser:
How about explaining Americanism first?

Ha! Good point.

[ersin eser]

Is America the American idea?

If there is an American idea then one most subscribe to it in order to be an American... To be fully American, one must adopt this idea wholeheartedly, proclaim it, prove one's devotion to it... Indeed, since the idea is so pure and abstract, we must all be constantly striving toward it, trying to become more American.
.. to tell some one "That is not the American way" is to say, in effect, that the person addressed is not entirely American-not worthy of citizenship; a kind of second class American or disguised interpoler. Uncovering heresy under such disguiseswas the aim of America's loyalty oaths, security tests, black lists.
from Inventing America, Jefferson's Declaration of Independence by Garry Wills

just started to read it and these lines are from prologue...

[Jason Menard]

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson110802.asp
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/debrasaunders/ds20021026.shtml

[Mapraputa Is]

Let's try this...
I perfectly remember the term "anti-Soviet", but after the fall of the USSR I do not remember equal amount of usage of "anti-Russian", other than in anti-Semitic context, in which any more-or-less decent person would feel rather embarrassed about being "Russian".
Do other countries have the same problem?
Does Great Britain have problems with "anti-Britain" people?
Does France talk a lot about "anti-France" movements?
Is Germany concerned with "anti-German" mood among a wave of immigrants it voluntarily brought into herself?
What does Turkey think about possibly anti-Turkish attitudes?
What behavior does Australia consider "anti-Australian"?
I am terrified to ask, but what you guys see as "anti-Indian tendencies"?
Disclaimer: if it looks I blame the US, it isn't so. I do realize that each country has its own agenda, and I would like to hear what these agendas are.
Disclaimer2: I do realize that for some the very idea about comparing the USA to some other country looks sacrilege, sorry for that.
[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Pradip Bhat]

{
I am terrified to ask, but what you guys see as "anti-Indian tendencies"?
}
I haven't seen such factor other than our loving neighbo(u)r Pakistan .Around 3 years back,in Fiji,many Indian immegrants were driven out,but it was more of anti immigrant factor than anti Indian.

[R K Singh]

Anti-American ::
I dont want to know what dictionary says ??
If there is a policy, which I think is not right, may I say that its wrong.
OR its like what some one said that it depends who is saying ... is this all matter? WHO IS SAYING ?
A joke, which cant be taken as joke.
A joke which is not joke but taken as joke.
Is it a conflict of views or as you say anti american ?
When you are out among 10000 of people then there will be some people who will not like all the things one do.
And as much my thinking goes, I think here we can say that one is anti my views. But what happens, that one is given a tag of anti-american. Reason because he is not agree with your view or a simple joke is countered .... casue one thinks that other is anti-US. Reason for thinking, becasue he is not agree with either one's view or does not agree with some policies of US.
I have asked this question also "Why americans are hated most ?"
Does it make me anti-american?

[Ashok Mash]

IMHO, Most fierce expression of anti-indianism would be:
'If you are not with us, you are against us'.
Well, that statement would be one of the anti-{half of the countries in this world that seeks peace and mutually beneficial co-existence} expressions, I guess.

[Paul Stevens]

Speaking of defining terms.
ob�ses�sion
n.
Compulsive preoccupation with a fixed idea or an unwanted feeling or emotion, often accompanied by symptoms of anxiety.
A compulsive, often unreasonable idea or emotion.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
I have asked this question also "Why americans are hated most ?"
Does it make me anti-american?

How about because you offer absolutely no proof that it is even true. You simply make an anti-American assumption. How about if I said, "Why are Indians always cab drivers?" Would that be anti-Indian?

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

Is Germany concerned with "anti-German" mood among a wave of immigrants it voluntarily brought into herself?
[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

In a way typical for us, we don't need foreigers to create an anti-german movement. We have our own. Big part of the extreme left calls themselves anti-german. They state that fashism and anti-semitism is part of our psychology. They have their own newspaper, called Jungle World. Interestingly, those are the only ones from the extreme right or the extreme left who are pro-USA, pro-Israel and support an attack against Iraq.
Strangest thing so far: This year they are commemorating the bombing german cities in 1943 ("Thank You Bomber Harris")
Bomber Harris: the chief of the british airforce which destroyed nearly all german cities. Those bombardements were largely directed against the civil population, not against factories.
Though I see the WW2 as a liberation from fashism, this is too much for me.
From the immigrants there is no anti-german movement here, at least not open. O.k. they criticize that a lot of germans have a sexual relationship with burocracy and stupid fixed rules, but germans criticize that too.
Turkish people(the by far biggest groups of immigrants) get into conflict with the sometimes quite different value system between the often east anatolian family and german public (I know this from turkish individuals). This conflict may result in anti-western (not anti-german) thinking, but most people live the conflict.
Don't know much about russian or east european people. Here in the west aren't so much. I know only some programmers or students and they sometimes complain that social relationships are too cold here.
A russian author writing in german, Vladimir Kaminer, who came here in 1989 makes a career by writing funny stories about germans and immigrants. He's getting more and more popular and I like him very much.
In Berlin, my sister lives there, are much more and from socially lower sectors. From what I saw, there will be a militant anti-german movement, if publicly drinking vodka in the morning would be prohibited.

[Paul Stevens]

And V2 rockets where aimed at???

[Pakka Desi]

I think Anti-Americanism (or anti - xyzism, for that matter) would be to hate American people, bear a grudge against them, with or without a reason. To think and do evil to the people of America, with or with any purpose or reason. This also includes doing evil under the wrappings of doing good and wishing them ill because of jealousy or envy.
By this definition, terrorists who hate America are anti americans. May be be they have a valid reason, I don't know. In any case, they are anti-americans as mush as Americans are Anti-Taliban/Iraq/SA/North Korea etc.
Similarly, Kashmiri terrorists, Pakistan, Bangladesh are Anti-India.
However, entering into a discussion where you critisize american policies is not anti-american.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson110802.asp
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/debrasaunders/ds20021026.shtml

It follows then that if you strongly object to not only the Bush Iraq policy, but also the popular war on terrorism and maintaining U.S. troops in Afghanistan, and if you believe that the United States attacks other countries, not in self-defense, but as an act of hegemony, and if you believe the American people are the war on terrorism's willing dupes, sorry, but you're anti-American.

I don't agree with this at all. Policies of a nation are at best policies of a few people who have the support of > 50% people (in Amrica that is. In dia, that is about >20%, I would say). So it is very much possible that a large number of Americans do not believe in the policies and believe that the policies are outright wrong. But this does not mean that these people are anti-america. They are probably as nationalistic and patriotic as the ruling majority.
I didn't read further. I hope, the writer is not trying the disprove what he said at the starting

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Paul Stevens:
And V2 rockets where aimed at???

Paul
of course the germans did start bombing cities.
EVERY civilian targeted strategy of the british air force were first used by the german air force in the battle of Britain 1940-1, long before the first V2 was launched against the british civilian population and long before the massive bombardements of german cities started.
I don't condemn the strategy of the british air force. Everything to stop Ausschwitz was justified.
I just stated that I find it kind of cynical to commemorate bombardments which killed lots of inocent lifes in the very same city.
Axel

[Balaji Loganathan]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
How about if I said, "Why are Indians always cab drivers?" Would that be anti-Indian?

Work is Workship!

[Sam Tilley]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Does Great Britain have problems with "anti-Britain" people?

The British by nature beat up on ourselves as a national past time, be it the public services, weather etc etc, although if you ask most they would rather be British than anything else.
Anti-Americanism though is increasing over here among the general population to the extent that the Prime Minister had to make a stand against it. While the US remains the most popular import of culture over here it is more down to dismay among the general public that Britain seems to be following the US down a path that is viewed increasingly as being wrong, so as much as anything its frustration that despite the majority being against it we seem to be being sucked along in the whilrpool of US action.
I think Anti-Americanism can be for any number of reasons but is often a two sided thing where people use and love things from the US, eg coke, films, tv, nike etc etc, while still railing against unilateralism and US policies.

[Thomas Paul]

Just to clarify, the Germans did start bombing British cities before the British bombed German cities. The Germans had used terror bombing of cities against Holland and Belgium in 1940. 43,000 British citizens died during the Blitz. The V-1 and V-2 rockets killed 9,000 more.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
How about because you offer absolutely no proof that it is even true. You simply make an anti-American assumption.
[Ravish]
Please TP, click the link ... 838 links are there which says this was not assumption but I read it somewhere.
Come on man .. grow up ..
[/Ravish]
How about if I said, "Why are Indians always cab drivers?" Would that be anti-Indian?

No way .. it is same as .. for Indians, Nepali means watchman.. becasue most of watchmen are Nepalis.
Everyone knows that most of south asian people are cab driver in US.
And if you dont know then in Gulf they are servant and maid also ....
No these are truth, and it does not make YOU anti Indian ...
Its poverty which makes them to do so .... and any work is not small or big ... come here I will show lot of others things which people do apart from driving cab for food. And yes pointing it out doesnot make any one anti Indian.
Which is truth, will remain truth.
and when I asked "why americans are hated most ", means I heard, read , saw somewhere this thing.
Forget abt my authentication abt quote?? Did you ever try to find out why someone is asking this question ???
NO .. you simply said that burglar is anti-US.
[ January 13, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[R K Singh]

This is simple copy & paste from the sites where some intellectuals (and I beg your pardon they all are american... sorry not all but some of them.. I think who believe that it matters WHO IS SAYING, will not mind)are trying to find out the answer for the question which is assumption.
==================================
Above all, Americans need to remember that the rest of the world has an absolute right to self-determination that is as defensible as our own

. I no longer think that the hatred of the fundamentalists is a byproduct of US foreign policy. I now believe that it has been deliberate US policy to create and motivate Islamic fundamentalist hate so they can destabilize countries and create US puppet regimes (documented below).

Why are Americans hated in other parts of the world? What is behind this terrorism? The United States, which behaves like the guardian of the whole world without seriously considering these questions, seems to be on a course of concern for people in other parts of the world in the 21st century.
Why are Americans hated? This is a very vital question. People have hatred in their hearts for America due to his dual nature.
==================================
And believe me, I dont find any thing wrong with US... but yes some time I find some thing wrong with some people's view.
[ January 13, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
And believe me, I dont find any thing wrong with US...

If this is the case, why did you make all those inflammatory "anonymous" posts several months ago. Unfortunately the threads have been deleted from Java Ranch (many old threads have since been deleted) so I can no longer find them in search, but you and I both know what I am talking about (as does anyone else who has been hanging out in MD since 9/11). I'm sure you remember for example the post where I referred to the anonymous you by your user number?
Anyway, I guess my question would be how do you reconcile the statement I quoted above with the old anonymous posts you made?

[Jason Menard]

As for definitions, I think all of the ones given in the first post are applicable. The Hollander and Wiki definitions certainly are more expansive though. So I guess if I were to settle on a single definition out of those, I would go with Hollander's.
To pose another question, let me illustrate using an example. Let's look at anti-Semitism. Isn't it really up to Jewish people to determine what is or isn't anti-Semitism? I mean we can all discuss amongst ourselves whether or not we feel certain comments are anti-Semitic, or what in fact it takes for a comment to be anti-Semitic, but when it comes down to it, aren't they the only ones who can truly judge this? We can swear up and down that whatever comments we have made weren't anti-Semitic, or that it certainly wasn't our intention to sound anti-Semitic, but I would have to say that the final arbiter would have to be Jewish to determine what does and doesn't constitute anti-Semitism.

[Thomas Paul]

The question wasn't "Why are Americans hated?" The question was "Why are Americans hated most?" There is no question that lots of people hate Americans. Lots of people hate Indians (I found one site that was built on the premise that all Indians are cowards). Lots of people hate. Now look at the question I asked, "Why are Indians always cab drivers?" It isn't true and therefore it is a racist question. Indians are doctors, lawyers, CEOs, etc.
As to the original question, "Why are Americans hated most?" Do you think the Kurds hate Americans most? Do you think Armernians hate Americans most? Do you think the Chinese hate Americans most? Do you think Indians hate Americans most? Who exactly do you think hates Americans most?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
If this is the case, why did you make all those inflammatory "anonymous" posts several months ago. Unfortunately the threads have been deleted from Java Ranch (many old threads have since been deleted) so I can no longer find them in search, but you and I both know what I am talking about (as does anyone else who has been hanging out in MD since 9/11). I'm sure you remember for example the post where I referred to the anonymous you by your user number?
Anyway, I guess my question would be how do you reconcile the statement I quoted above with the old anonymous posts you made?

Hi Jaosn
This line "As a bartender U will not object over people who are fighting over religion, east, west and so on ........ and giving all bullshit links abt religious sites. NO that is OK coz it is a PROFESSIONAL site." I posted long back, in my early days in MD. (if I am not wrong this is my 4/5 post in MD)
I dont know where is Valentin Crettaz which made my fun on my this quote .. I did not replied because that thread was not worth to reply. And now you can see it does not exist any where. Atleast not in public.
After that I tried 3-4 more times to tell that this is wrong.....
But you see .... you still have not improved/changed
SO I Decided to talk the way you talk. But as I already had said that thread like those were wrong.
I had to put a mask just to make you feel that US is not so great as you think. (I am delebratly useing YOU instead of ONE... , but read it ONE,... you have messed up lot of times because of using YOU instead of ONE, but still you have not changed your style of writing )
And still there are some policies as being Indian I dont think are good or right... but yes from US point of view its right.
As I told earlier I will be worst person for the family whose only son I have shot because he was trying to kill me. For his family, it does not matter ... I would be cursed ...
Unfortunately the threads have been deleted from Java Ranch
That thread DESERVE that.
Its not unfortunatlely, its Fortunately
Jason, You still remember my those posts, BUT dont you remember that I have not posted annonymosly from long back .. even I dont remember when I last logged on as annonymous.
And you dont remember that I have said lot of times, STOP such posts.
And you know me, how diry I could be if I want.
What do you think, why I dont do that or for your sake avoid ???
[ January 13, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[Paul Stevens]

Link.

[R K Singh]

The question wasn't "Why are Americans hated?" The question was "Why are Americans hated most?"

OK , WHy are Americans hated ??
I asked it in a thread where you (read ONE) must be praising US enough to prompt others to ask this qustion?
Where did I hear this ??
I saw a photo in a magzine, where people where holding a banner, "US do you know, why Americans are hated most ??"
And I that time I found that, is it Americans are hated all over world ???
I dont know who hate Americans at particular, but Inidans dont like US policies as most of the time they are pro-pak.
I said policies ..
Who exactly do you think hates Americans most?
I dont know... thats why I asked ??
My only point is that, why cant one accepts that all policies of US are not good.

[Thomas Paul]

I dont know who hate Americans at particular, but Inidans dont like US policies as most of the time they are pro-pak.
So Indians don't hate Americans most... they hate Pakistanis most.
I dont know [ who ]... thats why I asked ??
No, you asked why. If you think Americans are the most hated people on Earth then you must have an idea about who the people who hate Americans are.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Paul Stevens:
Link.

Yes, you are right of course. But that dead horse does kinda make a cool kind of squishy sound after beating on it for awhile.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
[QB]So Indians don't hate Americans most... they hate Pakistanis most.
80% Indians do hate Pakistanis.
And 30% Indians have their relatives in Pakistan (It includes both Hindus and Muslims)
No, you asked why. If you think Americans are the most hated people on Earth then you must have an idea about who the people who hate Americans are.
I do have idea for some part of wrold and I also know why ? I did not know that whole world hates??
What do you want to listen from me ?? Tell me I will say that.
Do you want me to accept that I am anti-American. Then that I have accepted recently
What else you want? Do you want me to not say that I like US Policies.
But I have also said that I dont like some US policies
Basically what do you want??
I dont buy stuff where there is bargaining. I like straight talk.
Say it ...
[ January 13, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Yes, you are right of course. But that dead horse does kinda make a cool kind of squishy sound after beating on it for awhile.

And I thought you will reply me.
AW Good night .. C U tomorrow ..
[ January 13, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[Thomas Paul]

Ravish, you asked why Americans get angry when you ask "Why are Americans hated most"? And I answered you. How would you feel if someone asked you, "Why does everyone despise Indians?"
If you disagree with an American policy that is fine. We can talk about that. But when I read, "The reason everyone hates you Americans is because blah blah blah" then my anti-American radar goes off.

[Sam Tilley]

I remember a while ago the big man of Javaranch tried to put a stop to this sort of thread as no matter how innocently started it always degenererated into name calling and slang with the camp firmly split between pro and anti american (as it is wont to do with such an international site). This obviously wasnt' the smartest topic to start a thread on as it just re-inflames old arguments and i can see it going from bad to worse, i even regret contributing to it so i would suggest before it gets silly again a sherrif put a lock on it before it gets out of hand as usual.
Its a pointless topic as its hardly even informative and no-one is ever swayed one way or the other.
Just my reckoning

[Axel Janssen]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Just to clarify, the Germans did start bombing British cities before the British bombed German cities. The Germans had used terror bombing of cities against Holland and Belgium in 1940. 43,000 British citizens died during the Blitz. The V-1 and V-2 rockets killed 9,000 more.

Just to add for completion:
The strategy of terror bombing was "invented" by germans during the spanish civil war. New documents clearly proof that for example the Guernica attack was clearly intented to demoralize the population by destroying the city. The strategists saw this in the context of a test to destroy middle/northern/east european cities. One document states that bigger bombs are needed for middle/northern/east european houses. For the lighter spanish houses it was "enough".

[Axel Janssen]

conclusion so far:
anti-americanism is a term with highly emotional connections. (surprise)
people from different parts of the world has different views about "anti-americanism" (surprise).
Might it be possible that there is more anti-americanism attitude in regions, where the US and european governments support corrupt despoties for economic, geostrategical and geopolitical reasons? (big surprise)

[Jason Menard]

I think Axel has summed things up well. Further I agree with Sam and Paul that this probably can't go anywhere that is too constructive. In the name of keeping the peace, while I do appreciate the viewpoints of Pakka Desi, Map, and everyone else, I don't want to risk adding any more fuel to the fire so I don't think I have anything else to add to this discussion.

[Frank Silbermann]

I think many Leftists are anti-American because America interfered with the Leftist plan for a world dominated by Marxist governments. Many Muslims are anti-American because America interfered with Arabs' plan to wipe out Israel. Many Frenchmen are anti-American because they resent France not being the world power. European social democrats resent us for dragging our feet when it came to developing a welfare state; they consider this to be unfair economic competition (like people called "scabs" who take the jobs of striking workers). And many other people resent us for being so prosperous even though the average American is not particularly intelligent or learned (sort of like the way Dilbert resents his stupid pointy-haired boss). People all over the world resent the toxic social effects of our entertainment industry, even though they enjoy it (sort of like the way so many Americans hate tobacco companies). Also, expressing hate for America is not particularly dangerous for most people here and abroad.
I'll probably think of more reasons later.

[Mapraputa Is]

I started this thread and I am going to fini... Well, sorta finish. Do not want to lock it yet.
First:
Sam Tilley:
Its a pointless topic as its hardly even informative and no-one is ever swayed one way or the other.
We have long history of people's disagreement on calling them or their posts "anti-American", so it would be good to at least understand what each party means by "anti-American". No need to agree, but at least understand. I do see some progress in this direction, and actually this thread is still going very nicely (compared to some other we had ). And a lot of interesting things have been said. So at risk of provoking possible degeneration I will push it a little further.
Jason Menard:
To pose another question, let me illustrate using an example. Let's look at anti-Semitism. Isn't it really up to Jewish people to determine what is or isn't anti-Semitism?
Up to a point, yes. I agree that this generally works and should work. But imagine this situation: (all below is written without any particular relation to Jewish nation, and the word "Jew" can be freely substituted by any other) you criticized somebody's job (for example, your co-worker on whose output your job depends) and this person, who happened to be a Jew, tells that this is because you are anti-Semite. Now you would feel offended, because you know you are not, and you suspect that this person simply uses this "anti-Semitism" cover to protect himself from critics.
Another situation:
Imagine that there is a group of Jews on your job who are often bragging how great Jews are, what a great culture, and how many Nobel Prize laureates are Jews... At first you are only slightly irritated, but after certain period of being exposed to this kind of talking, you allow yourself a sarcastic comment "if you are so great, why..." Now these people most likely will say that this was anti-Semitic comment. You would probably feel that you are only against these particular group of Jews, not all Jews.
Ravish Kumar: SO I Decided to talk the way you talk.
This isn't a good idea - I tried Once again, it is called "fundamental attributions error" - people tend to forgive themselves for not very nice behavior and explain it as they are provoked, why should we be nice with all these jerks etc. But when another does the same, they do not think: "this is because he was provoked..." he think he is a jerk. And if you do it for long time, the initial reason is forgotten anyway. There is a joke "Either he stole the coat, or the coat was stolen from him - now nobody remembers exactly". Even if you manage to get yourself heard (which is unlikely) it still hurts a little to be treated like this. I think, the best approach was demonstrated by Axel in this thread:

Originally posted by Axel Janssen:

Paul

- it doesn't insult "the offender", just lets know your feelings.
Now trying to summarize Jason's views on definition of "anti-Americanism". So you are saying that for you it's a certain hostile bias, which cannot be quite proved by one post, but is rather integral metric. Like if somebody criticizes you once, you think that you probably did something wrong, but after he did it 50 times, you almost sure he just hates you. Especially if he isn't too nice to you in other aspects also. Close?
This quote from an article you posted a link to:
"Anti-American means "opposed or hostile to the people or the government politics of the United States." Against one policy, including the Bush-Iraq plan? Doesn't qualify. Against a couple? Probably not. Convinced that key popular U.S. policies are rooted in a base desire to dominate other countries? Does qualify."
Jason Menard: In the name of keeping the peace...
If you want to keep the peace, do not do it here! Go to this slack thread and keep the peace there!
Kidding!
If you do not want to add anything, it's your right, of course.
Let's make a bet: can we keep this thread nice?
Mine: yes, we can.
[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]