North Korea

[Jason Menard]

N.Korea plays with fire in game with U.S.
These guys are getting dangerously close to crossing a line which will be hard to pull back from.

[Melvin Menezes]

Why Not Kill Dictators with Kind Fatal Hug?
-Joe Klein

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Did you see in today's paper two aerospace giants agreed to pay fines for transfering missle data to the Chinese in the 90s?
The CIA says the Chineses are transfering data to the Koreans.
The fines were like 20 million and and 12 million in business expenses had to be paid. Twenty million that's probably the cost of two lost launches, or one year's salary for a CEO. What a joke.

[Jason Menard]

Yet another point about North Korea...
The US has been seeking an international solution to the problem, asking countries like Russia and particularly China to get involved in the situation and exert some of their influence over North Korea to try to calm them down. Yet they are pretty much unwilling to do anything. So in one situation these nations are crying for us to bend to their will, I mean "work within an international framework", yet in this case they are telling us we are on our own, and by implication that they don't really care if the entire area (South Korea, North Korea, Japan) becomes nuclearized or just evaporates in a puff of smoke. This will be yet another instance where we will end up having to deal with still another world crisis on our own.

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
The US has been seeking an international solution to the problem, asking countries like Russia and particularly China to get involved in the situation and exert some of their influence over North Korea to try to calm them down. Yet they are pretty much unwilling to do anything. So in one situation these nations are crying for us to bend to their will, I mean "work within an international framework", yet in this case they are telling us we are on our own, and by implication that they don't really care if the entire area (South Korea, North Korea, Japan) becomes nuclearized or just evaporates in a puff of smoke. This will be yet another instance where we will end up having to deal with still another world crisis on our own.

Russia calls on N. Korea to cooperate with UN nuclear watchdog
Russia called on North Korea on Wednesday to cooperate with the U.N. nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency, to resolve the growing crisis around Pyongyang's nuclear program.
http://english.pravda.ru/economics/2002/12/26/41378.html
Russia toughens tone on North Korea's nuclear plans
MOSCOW - Russia toughened its tone towards North Korea this week, denouncing its Cold War-era Communist ally for reactivating its nuclear programme and expelling atomic energy inspectors.
But Moscow balanced its strongest condemnation yet of North Korea's nuclear moves by telling Washington to tone down its "aggressive rhetoric" against Pyongyang.
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/19254/newsDate/2-Jan-2003/story.htm
Russia seeks to calm nuclear row
Russia says it will try to persuade North Korea to abandon its nuclear programme, but it has also called on the US to show flexibility.
Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Losyukov said Russia and China offered the best hope of influencing North Korea, but added that dialogue between the US and the North was essential.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2628569.stm
Russian official says he's 'upbeat' on North Korean front
MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- A top Russian official said he was "more optimistic" about a peaceful resolution to the diplomatic standoff over North Korea's nuclear program after talks with a South Korean envoy Sunday.
"I enjoyed the discussion greatly. Despite some misgivings in the mass media, I feel now much more upbeat about the prospects," Deputy Foreign Minister Georgy Mamedov said.
Mamedov and Alexander Losyukov, the Russian Foreign Ministry's top Asian expert, met Sunday with Kim Hang-kyung, South Korea's deputy foreign minister, as South Korean officials hoped to bring Russian pressure to bear on Pyongyang.
Mamedov, who is in charge of nuclear nonproliferation issues for the Russian government, said he could see "the light at the end of the tunnel" after Sunday's meetings.
"Notwithstanding what people say, I feel much more optimistic about an eventual diplomatic solution of this crisis," he said.
Kim said that Russia's "very friendly" relations with North Korea make Russian help essential to resolving the standoff peacefully.
"We are asking Russia to play a very important role," Kim said.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/01/05/north.korea.nuclear/
France joins Korea diplomatic push
France is to add its weight to the growing diplomatic pressure on North Korea to abandon its nuclear programme.
Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin is to visit China, Russia and South Korea - all of which are at the heart of efforts to persuade Pyongyang to stop the relaunch of its nuclear programme.
North Korea has said it wants unconditional and direct talks with the United States with whom it had a previous aid-for-nuclear-freeze deal, objecting to the involvement of other nations.
But South Korea has been trying to enlist the support of Pyongyang's long-time allies China and Russia to help it to avert a looming crisis.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2626123.stm
China dialogue 'valued'
Mr de Villepin - now in Ivory Coast trying to stop an escalation of the civil conflict there - will start his trip in Moscow on 8 January where he will meet his Russian counterpart, Igor Ivanov, his ministry said.
In Beijing, he will hold talks with President Jiang Zemin and Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan before going on to South Korea.
Marie Masdupuy, a spokeswoman for Mr Villepin, said: "This trip comes at a time when two very serious situations are focusing world attention: Iraq and North Korea.
In the current very delicate environment, we attach particular value to dialogue with China, which is a major partner," she added.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2626123.stm
China warns UN over N Korea
China has warned the UN Security Council against getting involved in the North Korean nuclear crisis.
"The UN Security Council's involvement at this stage might not necessarily contribute to the settlement of the issue," said China's ambassador to the UN, Zhang Yan.
He was speaking in Vienna after the UN's nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), took the dramatic step of declaring the North in breach of UN nuclear safeguards and referring it to the Security Council.
Japan has appealed to the North to re-open talks with the IAEA and South Korea called on it to seek a diplomatic solution to the crisis.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2755895.stm
[ March 06, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Axel Janssen]

Maybe this is some sort of a bad guy - good guy strategy. Russia, China saying: If you don't cooperate with us, the cowboy will come and shoot everything down.

[Mapraputa Is]

As far as I remember, the cowboy started all this and now complains that Russia and China do not want to gang up on North Korea.
Seriously, as both Russia and China were/are communist states, it may be easier for them to understand way of thinking = find a common language with North Korea and actually understand the other party concerns, instead of demonizing it. In particular, from what I read, Russia tend to respect North Korea's concern for its security.
Anyway, here is another document I just found...
JOINT COMMUNIQUE
OF THE MINISTERS OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA ON THE SITUATION IN THE KOREAN PENINSULA
475-27-02-2003
On February 27 Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation Igor Ivanov and Minister of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China Tang Jiaxuan expressed profound concern over the situation in the Korean Peninsula.
Guided by their sincere desire to assist the strengthening of peace and stability in the Asia-Pacific region, Russia and China call upon all concerned parties to exert the necessary efforts towards a peaceful and just resolution of the situation in the Korean Peninsula.
The Sides emphasize that the ensuring of the denuclearized status of the Korean Peninsula, the observance there of the regime of nonproliferation of weapons of mass destruction and the preservation in this region of peace, security and stability meet the common aspirations of the international community.
The Sides note that a constructive and equal dialogue between the USA and the DPRK has a great significance for resolving the situation around the "North Korean nuclear problem" and normalizing American-North Korean relations.
The Sides consider necessary the continuation of an active dialogue and the further development of cooperation between North and South Korea. This process constitutes a substantial contribution to improving the situation in the Korean Peninsula and Northeast Asia as a whole.
The Sides take into account the position stated by the DPRK on the absence of an intention to create nuclear weapons and the desire signified by the USA and the DPRK to resolve the problems by peaceful means.
The Sides reiterate that Russia and China are ready to make every effort to facilitate the American-North Korean dialogue, as well as in a bilateral and multilateral format contribute actively to a political solution of the Korean nuclear problem and to the preservation of peace and stability in the Asia-Pacific region.
Russia and China intend to continue to develop good-neighborly, friendly ties and cooperation with the DPRK and the Republic of Korea.
February 27, 2003
Link
[ March 06, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
As far as I remember, the cowboy started all this and now complains that Russia and China do not want to gang up on North Korea.

You mean we made them break terms of a framework agreement? We made them undertake a secret nuclear weapons program? :roll: You've got to be kidding.
Hey, and if they don't want to do anything about North Korea (their only solution is to press the US for bilateral talks with the DPRK), that's their backyard so it's their problem. We'll simply give nukes to Japan and maybe South Korea (although it looks like we're planning on pulling troops out of there so maybe not). Problem solved.
Russia and China can take comfort in how they didn't want to help resolve a grave situation multilaterally and can share responsibility with nuclearizing the region. I'll tell you though, they'll sure want to have something to say on the matter when the US and Japan decide that military force might be called for to destroy the DPRK nuclear capability.
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/detail.asp?ID=35385&GRP=A
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/02/24/powell.asia/

[Mapraputa Is]

Your link:
In December, Pyongyang said it would restart the plutonium-producing plant unless the United States agreed to talks and a non-aggression pact. Washington rejected the demands as "nuclear blackmail".
So what't wrong about a non-aggression pact, you peace lovers?
Another link:
"After the meetings, China's official Xinhua news agency quoted Foreign Minister Tang Jiaxuan as saying that China hoped that the United States and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea) would begin direct talks on an equal footing.
Those sentiments have also been expressed by key U.S. regional allies South Korea and Australia. (Allies urge U.S. to talk) "
Jason, do you have anything to say about South Korea and Australia, or it's only China who now is to blame for everything?
[ March 07, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Jason, do you have anything to say about South Korea and Australia, or it's only China who now is to blame for everything?

North Korea is a client-state of China. They wield the kind of influence over North Korea that we wield over Israel. Russia also has some influence over North Korea, although not as much as China.
Imagine for a moment if Israel were threatening to launch an unprovoked nuclear attack on Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt unless Iran agreed to a non-agression treaty and other conditions of blackmail with them. Who do you think the world would come crawling to in order to put a leash on Israel? Should we tell Iran they're on their own and they'd better just give Israel what they want and there's nothing we're going to do? That would be insane and irresponsible.
I don't think many have grasped it yet, but the situation brewing on the Korean Peninsula may be the most dangerous situation the world has faced since the Cuban Missile Crisis. We are talking about events that could bring an exchange of nuclear weapons. If China and Russia have something to offer, it's time to pony up.
[ March 07, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Expert Panel Urges U.S. to Begin Direct Talks with N. Korea, March 5, 2003
Former top U.S. officials urged the Bush administration to drop its multilateral approach for resolving the nuclear weapons crisis with North Korea and to begin direct talks with officials in Pyongyang instead.
The National Security Advisory Group, formed earlier this year, includes: William Perry, chairman and former Secretary of Defense; Madeleine Albright, former Secretary of State; Sandy Berger, former National Security Advisor; Ashton Carter, former Assistant Secretary of Defense; and Michelle Flournoy, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense.
In a memorandum released the day of the news conference, the National Security Advisory Group emphasized the need for direct U.S. talks with North Korea.
"China, Russia, and others can play an important role in pressing North Korea to comply with the NPT (Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty) and accept the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) inspectors," the memorandum said. "But issues at the very heart of American security cannot simply be outsourced to China, Russia, or the United Nations. North Korea itself maintains that only the United States, as the leading power in the region and the world, can address its security concerns, and that these concerns are the source of its nuclear program. Our allies and friends in the region also urge direct talks."
http://www.usembassy.it/file2003_03/alia/a3030511.htm

[Thomas Paul]

Clearly multilateralism isn't working. The rest of the world won't cooperate with us anywhere. We should talk to directly to the North Koreans and invade Iraq and let the rest world beat their chests in righteous anger.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Clearly multilateralism isn't working. The rest of the world won't cooperate with us anywhere. We should talk to directly to the North Koreans and invade Iraq and let the rest world beat their chests in righteous anger.

Unfortunately bilateral talks have always proven to be fruitless with the North Koreans. Clinton's 1994 deal being the latest example of course.
One option would be to pull all forces out of South Korea (which I think we should do anyway), and arm Japan with nuclear weapons, bombers, missile defense, and whatever else they want that we can give them. Of course Russia and China wouldn't care for that option one bit, but oh well, it's not like they weren't offered an opportunity to get involved.
[ March 07, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Jasper Vader]

it's true that China must play an important part in bringing North Korea to some sort of order. Australia has a rather paltry amount of influence.
arming Japan to the teeth with nuclear weapons etc etc is one of the most insane suggestions i have heard of.

[Jasper Vader]

i think China controls a lot of supply routes to NorthKorea. they have a lot of power over them. if only they were as willing to exert their force in North Korea as they were in Tibet - except North Korea does not have as prevalent a none-violent religion, such as the Tibetans do. And the NorthKorean army's size is Twelve Million personnel.
But something must be done, and soon, by China - before America blunders into yet more aggressive posturing and escalates the situation.
by 'escalate the situation' - i mean that China MUST be involved in the talks and decisions regarding NorthKorea - as the borders are just a few hundred kilometres apart. SERIOUSLY. If China is snubbed, and tensions escalate, it may be forced into supporting North Korea, a position it would not wish to be in, but may very well take, if forced to.

and by "aggressive posturing", i refer to things like Bush naming North Korea as being part of an axis of evil, to which North Korea's leader replied that George Bush has a foul tongue. Not to suggest that North Korea is not a rather aggressive regime that prefers to deal with others via techniques such as blackmail.
[ March 07, 2003: Message edited by: Jasper Vader ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Jasper Vader:
But something must be done, and soon, by China - before America blunders into yet more aggressive posturing and escalates the situation.

This is just yet one more instance where people cannot manage to place the blame where it belongs. In this case, the present circumstances are the blame of one country and one country only - North Korea. There has been no "snubbing" of China, in fact Powell has travelled to China and other countries in the region to try to get them actively involved. China declined.
Here is some must read background info along with why we will not enter into bilateral negotiations, by Henry Kissenger. I would quote the whole thing but I'll trust those so inclined to just read it.
http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2003/mar/08/opinion/20030308opi3.html
In another good article:

China's self-defeating North Korea gamble

When the Europeans and the UN proved incapable of dealing decisively with the mid-'90s ethnic cleansing crisis in the Balkans, the US stepped in and - with the assistance of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) - got it sorted. But Washington is determined not to see a repeat of this bizarre scenario in which regional powers abdicate the responsibility for cleaning up their own neighborhood only to turn around later to badmouth the United States for acting as global sheriff. It wants South Korea, Japan and, in particular, China to step up to the plate and go to bat rather than being compelled to act alone and shoulder the blame should something go wrong.

While it is en vogue to blame the US for everything and anything imaginable, if people really want to live in a peaceful world where multilateral institutions are useful and respected, then, for a long overdue change, others need to accept some responsibility and start pulling their weight.
[ March 08, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Jasper Vader:
arming Japan to the teeth with nuclear weapons etc etc is one of the most insane suggestions i have heard of.

Others don't seem to think so:

Henry Kissenger
Japan will not stand by when nuclear weapons are being produced and perhaps proliferated by a nearby neighbor. It will either enter the nuclear field or greatly increase its armaments or both.

The former President of South Korea
South Korea's outgoing president has responded by warning that Seoul and Tokyo could be forced to build nuclear weapons of their own in response to North Korea's assumed nuclear capability.

Japanese Defense Minister Shigeru Ishiba
Japan may have to do both as far as parts of Japan's defense establishment and right-wingers in the country's ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) are concerned. While LDP defense hawks and the country's Defense Agency chief Shigeru Ishiba himself were allegedly flirting with the idea of attacking North Korea before it pulls the trigger first, it was recently revealed that Japan was looking into the feasibility of joining the nuclear-weapons club even back in the 1990s.

[shay Aluko]

with respect to North Korea, i would like to quote from a famous persson who once said "power only understands power". If you come to think of it, there is a method in madness of kim jong il, he has nuclear weapons, the capability to produce them and a large standing army, he know the US cannot dare to attack his country,even if the US wins against him, the price to pay will be too high, which why the US is trying to solve the North Korea problem by diplomatic means-- the administration has no choice because N korea can cause real harm to Th US as opposed to Iraq which is far away , weakened and is an easy target. It brings to mind the proverbial schoolyard bully - the bully will only attack you if you cower from him in weakness.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by shay Aluko:
It brings to mind the proverbial schoolyard bully - the bully will only attack you if you cower from him in weakness.

So you are saying that the US should attack North Korea even though it could potentially trigger a nuclear holocaust? Because we don't it shows that we are just a bully. Funny, but I would have used the word "smart" instead of "bully" but that's just me. I guess you feel that it's worth killing millions of people as long as we show that we aren't a bully.

[shay Aluko]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

So you are saying that the US should attack North Korea even though it could potentially trigger a nuclear holocaust? Because we don't it shows that we are just a bully. Funny, but I would have used the word "smart" instead of "bully" but that's just me. I guess you feel that it's worth killing millions of people as long as we show that we aren't a bully.

I don't think you undersood my post, let me explain it to you in simpler terms, the US cannot dare to attack N Korea, pure and simple. That is similar to the doctrine of mutually assured destruction. Even though the US will not be destroyed if it dares attack, it will pay a stiff price if it does.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by shay Aluko:
It brings to mind the proverbial schoolyard bully - the bully will only attack you if you cower from him in weakness.

Uh no, but it does bring to mind that if we're not careful Kim Jong-Il will kill a million South Koreans and there is little anybody could do to prevent it.
What we need to do is abandon the silly rhetoric and realize that Iraq and North Korea are not even remotely comparable situations. Trying to make false comparisons between the two in order to convince oneself that they are bolstering their own dodgy political agenda is as pointless as it is transparent.
Personally, the same old tired bleating by the "blame America first" crowd becomes monotonous after awhile. I would be much more interested to hear how some of these problems might realistically be resolved given facts and history, as opposed to rhetoric, misguided finger-pointing, and attempts to draw false comparisons between unrelated issues.
The North Korean problem is one of the longest standing US military and foreign policy issues that still remains. You can be assured that every contingency imaginable has been prepared for and practiced. We have been preparing for the next Korean War since the cease fire in the 50's, as have the North Koreans. To be honest, the entire North Korean society is centered around the idea of another Korean War and has always generally been considered a certain eventuality by most in the DPRK.
Yet because we have been preparing for such a conflict for so long, we are well aware of what the potential costs will be. We may be able to minimize some of these by a massive pre-emptive strike, but only then to a certain degree. But the problem is at what point do the costs of not dealing with a situation exceed the costs of dealing with a situation. In other words, is there a certain line which once crossed by the DPRK will change the focus from diplomacy to something else?
We are a long way from military options though imho. Sanctions, for one thing, are an intermediate step. The [snicker]UN Security Council[/snicker] has not addressed the situation. The US has not put troops on alert, nor has it forward deployed sizable forces to the region. I guess all that can be done for now is try to not play along with Kim Jong-il's games, and meanwhile attempt to engage the region in some multilateral diplomacy.

[Jason Menard]

China blocking major-power UN meeting on N. Korea

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by shay Aluko:
I don't think you undersood my post, let me explain it to you in simpler terms, the US cannot dare to attack N Korea, pure and simple. That is similar to the doctrine of mutually assured destruction. Even though the US will not be destroyed if it dares attack, it will pay a stiff price if it does.

Agreed. Which means that the smart move is to not attack. So how does that make the US a bully?

[Cindy Glass]

Perhaps he means that N Korea is bullying the US?