Agree to Disagree??

[Gregg Bolinger]

Over the past few months, I have really avoided this forum because of so much crap I have to filter through just to read some intellegent conversations and topics.
Everything is about the war and America and almost everything is about everyone's opinion that America should not have gone to war. Most of us here are just biting our tounges trying to get along and I find it disturbing that a JAVA Discussion Forum is being used to cause so much anger and slander.
I think we should all agree to disagree. There is nothing we can do about what is happening. I don't think that Bush is going to visit Javaranch and read MD and all of a sudden decide America should pull out of the war.
Everyone needs to read Paul's message here and let's all just get on with our lives. Pray for those who are fighting, and yes, even the people in Iraq for those who may think I wasn't considering them.
And to coin a dumb ass phrase: "Can't we all just get along?" At least here at Javaranch?

[Jason Menard]

Agreed.

[Jim Yingst]

I'm not going to agree with that, and you can't make me!

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
I'm not going to agree with that, and you can't make me!

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
I'm not going to agree with that, and you can't make me!

Get back to your bar pretzels!

[R K Singh]

do i need to say anything ...
now I wont participate in any war thread.
take my words.... changing my sig

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
War doesn't determine who's right...War determines who's left

I like that.

[John Lee]

Agree to disagree? Absolutly!

[Gail Schlentz]

Whew - I thought I was the only one with an aversion to fights, arguments & heated debates!!

I agree!! Uhh.. I mean - I disagree!! Uhhh - well, you know what I mean!!

[Maulin Vasavada]

sure!
agree.
infact thats what one of the great gods in India recommends
regards
maulin.

[Dan Chisholm]

Why not agree to agree?
Rather than focus on disagreements why not search for areas of agreement? I think the world would be a far more peaceful place if people began discussions with a search for common ground.
There is no doubt that people will frequently disagree on tactics but wouldn't it be interesting to see who can agree on a goal?

[Mark Howard]

Originally posted by Dan Chisholm:
Why not agree to agree?

Second that one. Have you ever tried the agree-to-disagree with your partner? Not on. Brilliant in theory, lamentable in practice
I for instance completely agree with my wife that golf is a tormenting sport to follow on the telly and that I can't possibly be having fun when I go out for a round with my friends on Friday mornings...

[Kevin Thompson]

Gregg! I have to bite my tongue too! Do you think everyone is OK with being instructed to pray!!??
Kevin

[Thomas Paul]

I agree with Jim! And Jason. But no one else and you can't make me!

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
Gregg! I have to bite my tongue too! Do you think everyone is OK with being instructed to pray!!??
Kevin

Think of pray as in "hope and wish the best" for everyone. You don't have to pray in the conventional sense.

[Gail Schlentz]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:

Think of pray as in "hope and wish the best" for everyone. You don't have to pray in the conventional sense.

Good thought, Gregg. Instead of trying to pick apart what someone says, make an effort to find a way to agree with it.
In my daughter's Girl Scout troop, we recite the Promise which includes "...to serve God...", and the girls all come from diverse backgrounds. Figure out what "God" means to you & pledge to serve that idea.

[Kevin Thompson]

Elaine,
For lifelong atheists like myself, the policy you described in the Girl Scouts would be quite intolerable.
It is simply not possible for people who are free from religion to participate under those sort of objectionable terms.
Kevin

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
Elaine,
For lifelong atheists like myself, the policy you described in the Girl Scouts would be quite intolerable.
It is simply not possible for people who are free from religion to participate under those sort of objectionable terms.
Kevin

Then don't join the Girl Scouts.

[Kevin Thompson]

Greg: The problem is that the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts used to take taxpayer money (I know at least the Boy Scouts did here in Texas).
But as far as I know - all of that has been stopped.
They keep wanting to sell me cookies. Which is fine. I just tell the kids, and their parents who standing at the cookie stand too, that because their group excludes people with my belief system, I am unwilling to support them in any way whatsoever.
Kevin
[ March 21, 2003: Message edited by: Kevin Thompson ]

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
Greg: The problem is that the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts used to take taxpayer money (I know at least the Boy Scouts did here in Texas).
But as far as I know - all of that has been stopped.
They keep wanting to sell me cookies. Which is fine. I just tell the kids, and their parents who standing at the cookie stand too, that because their group excludes people with my belief system, I am unwilling to support them in any way whatsoever.
Kevin
[ March 21, 2003: Message edited by: Kevin Thompson ]

Kevin, I admire the way you stand behind your principls and beliefs. However, on this topic, we will just have to "Agree to disagree" and move on. .

[Michael Ernest]

Kevin, it does sound like what you're saying amounts to an intolerance of other cultural attitudes. I am not aware of any element of atheism that shuns other people or groups because they have faith in a god.
The Boy Scouts don't tolerate homosexuality and that's a concern for me; I don't support the Boy Scouts financially, and I'd disapprove if my son wanted to join. But that wouldn't keep me from attending the meetings if my son were there, or if another father invited me along to see what his son was doing.
The relationships we form around belief systems that are not our own don't have to rely solely on principles of exclusion. We live everyday with elements in our lives that we don't care for, and yet it's not a requirement that we fence off each one in the name of preserving our own values.
Black nationalists selling sweet potato pies in Brooklyn only to black drivers at a red light, that's a political message. A 10-year girl and her mom sitting at a cardtable in front of a supermarket -- it's hard to see the politics in that, whether you're buying cookies or not.

[Gail Schlentz]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
...that because their group excludes people with my belief system, I am unwilling to support them in any way whatsoever.
Kevin

Not to beat a dead horse, & I don't pretend to know everything about the situation.
But it was my understanding that Boy Scouts have lost funding due to their exclusion of those who don't believe in God. Girl Scouts, while based in believing in God do not exclude those who don't - I speak from personal experience.
I have a friend who won't buy cookies because Girl Scouts WON'T exclude those who don't believe in God.
I personally find it easy to substitute "good" for "God", in reference to "...the greater good of the universe".
But I've never been strongly opinionated, and I respect, and even sometimes admire those who are.
Peace!

[Gail Schlentz]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
A 10-year girl and her mom sitting at a cardtable in front of a supermarket -- it's hard to see the politics in that, whether you're buying cookies or not.

Yup - All they're thinking about is the cool stuff their troop can do with the money they raise! My girls have saved enough over the past 3 years to take a trip to San Francisco. Planned and budgeted by 10-year-old girls. Hard to fault Girl Scouts there!! I'm so proud of them!!

[Kevin Thompson]

Michael - Of course, if a group purposefully and proudfully excludes people with my belief system, then they get no money from me.
It seems quite odd to say that I "shun" them. It seems more like they are "shunning" me.
Kevin

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
Michael - Of course, if a group purposefully and proudfully excludes people with my belief system, then they get no money from me.
It seems quite odd to say that I "shun" them. It seems more like they are "shunning" me.
Kevin

It seems that currently, you are shunning each other.
[jokingly]Can not believing still be called a belief system?[/jokingly]

[Kevin Thompson]

Greg: Atheists believe in reason and logic.
I need to get logged off of here for a good long while and find something useful to do about the war.
I am planning to join the war protestors tonight, and any other night that I can.
During the first Gulf War I protested almost every single night, and I went to Washington DC and protested in front of the White House too.
I think I should do the same again.
Kevin
[ March 21, 2003: Message edited by: Kevin Thompson ]

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
Greg: Atheists believe in reason and logic.

So do non-atheists.
Hey!! We share a common belief. Cool.
[ March 21, 2003: Message edited by: Gregg Bolinger ]

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
Michael - Of course, if a group purposefully and proudfully excludes people with my belief system, then they get no money from me.

And you'd think they wouldn't ask for it either, as it would taint such a moral stance. Which leads me to wonder if the Girl Scouts -- assuming we're including them in this discussion -- really take the position you say they do. When a group is proud and purposeful in the way you suggest, they don't want anything from you, not even your cookie money.

[Dan Chisholm]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:

They keep wanting to sell me cookies. Which is fine. I just tell the kids, and their parents who standing at the cookie stand too, that because their group excludes people with my belief system, I am unwilling to support them in any way whatsoever.

It appears that you support the concept of a separation between church and state. I agree that the world would be a better place if every nation on earth were to support that same concept.
Why do girl scouts sell cookies? Isn't it because the girl scouts are trying to teach children to set goals and then work towards achieving those goals? Isn't that a positive experience for our children?

[Younes Essouabni]

That's just too easy. An agreement to disagree leads to nothing good, while a discussion may lead to something more constructive. Even if, I've never changed my mind since I discuss or just read posts on MD, I've learned much things, I forced myself to make reseach to check one's argument. That is constructive

[Dan Chisholm]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:

I am planning to join the war protestors tonight, and any other night that I can.

I support the concept of free speech and your right to make comments that I don't agree with. For example, a peaceful protest against the war would be an example of free speech.
In San Francisco, the peace activists are proving to be the most unpeaceful elements in the city. Just today, the police displayed some of the weapons that have been taken from "peace activists". Why is it that those that wish to convey a message of peace do so by damaging property and by hurting people?
The city of San Francisco has difficulty providing services to homeless people. The "peace demonstrations" are costing the city about 1.5 million dollars per day. That same money could have otherwise been used to provide food and shelter to homeless people. Do you believe that homeless people should be deprived of food and shelter so that "peace activists" can behave destructively?
Do you feel that peace activists have the right to destroy property and physically harm innocent citizens?

[Paul Stevens]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
Greg: Atheists believe in reason and logic.
I need to get logged off of here for a good long while and find something useful to do about the war.
I am planning to join the war protestors tonight, and any other night that I can.
During the first Gulf War I protested almost every single night, and I went to Washington DC and protested in front of the White House too.
I think I should do the same again.
Kevin
[ March 21, 2003: Message edited by: Kevin Thompson ]

Did you protest Bosnia, Haiti, or Clintons attacks of Iraq in 1998?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
I am planning to join the war protestors tonight, and any other night that I can.
During the first Gulf War I protested almost every single night, and I went to Washington DC and protested in front of the White House too.

So you think that when one country attacks another such as Iraq attacking Kuwait that the US should just do nothing. And when a madman takes over a country and murders 2,000,000 people we should just laugh it off. Maybe you would have felt different if it was your wife and children who were raped and murdered by Sadaam's sons.

[Kevin Thompson]

Dan:No
Paul:Yes
The other guy: whatever.
Kevin

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
The other guy: whatever.

That was pretty much the answer I expected. The peace movement hasn't gotten beyond the simple "Bush is a fascist" message. Where are the signs asking Sadaam to stop torturing his people? Where are the signs asking Sadaam to stop using poison gas on his neighbors? Where are the signs asking Sadaam to stop the suffering of his people? Does the peace movement really care about the suffering of Iraqis? Apparently not as they would allow Iraqis to suffer forever while we stand on the side line. Let the French and the Germans pat themselves on the back for being so peace loving that they would let suffering around the world continue. As usual, America has to clean up the mess. I'm just glad that the British and Australians and the other countries that do support us aren't as "civilized" as the French.
[ March 22, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

[Gregg Bolinger]

Well, since my thread was hijacked looong ago, I might as well continue with it.
Just some questions for protestors:
1. What peaceful means should be done about Saddam and his regime?
2. Where is the support for our American Military in these demonstrations?
3. How does it make you feel that more protestors have been killed than American military in the war?
4. Will your views change about the war if Saddam uses Weapons of Mass Destruction?
5. What do you say about the fact that the very freedom someone has to protest a War was, in part, provided by war.
FYI - I just learned that 4 more US Marines were killed this morning so question 3 may no longer be valid.
[ March 22, 2003: Message edited by: Gregg Bolinger ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Younes Essouabni:
That's just too easy. An agreement to disagree leads to nothing good, while a discussion may lead to something more constructive. Even if, I've never changed my mind since I discuss or just read posts on MD, I've learned much things, I forced myself to make reseach to check one's argument. That is constructive

Good comment Younes.

[Gregg Bolinger]

My inital comment about agreeing to disagree was primarily focused towards "Should we or should we not go to war with iraq" as that seemed to prompt many a heated debate here in MD.
I agree completely with Younes. However, there comes a point when a topic has been discussed to death. And at that point, we must be able to let it go, and move on to other issues. At that point, we should "agree to disagree" and the debate should end.

[Jason Menard]

While it is of course the right of every person to exercise their freedom of speech, lying down and blocking traffic and tying up a city is not one of those rights.
I have never seen such vehemont anger and disgust directed towards "anti-war" protesters as I have recently. And I'm not talking about hard-core right-wingers expressing their anger and contempt for these people, I'm talking about a cross-section of people I know, most of them Democrats.
I think the Gregg has raised the relevant questions that need to be answered though.

[Kevin Thompson]

Greg: Since I am the only war protestor here - I guess you mean me. I am supposed to be spending my time out protesting instead of being here.
1. Nothing.
2. I totally support them. Their lives are too precious to be wasted.
3. No feelings about it.
4. No.
5. That is not a "fact", that is an opinion/point-of-view.
I know this is beside the point. But I guess I feel like saying it, because to some degree I do care what people on JavaRanch think of me.
I am not part of a "peace movement".
Also, by protesting the war, I am not a "supporter" of Saddam Hussein.
And I am certainly not a "pacifist"! I am quite the opposite! Until recently I owned a personal arsenal. My weapons were better than the soldiers you see on TV (except my mine were not full auto. All of mine were legal for civilians to own.). I recently sold my arsenal because I needed the money.
I miss my arsenal! I have some trips to wilderness areas planned for this year. I always used to sleep with one of my shotguns. Now that my guns are gone, I can't do that anymore.
And as for my politial views - my views have been the same my whole life. I have always been a libertarian, even when I was too young to know what the word meant. There are basic core concepts of libertarianism that involve individual rights that are very appealing to me.
Kevin