Change Of Faith

[John Smith]

One of the things that shocked me in the American culture was that "get married, change your faith" thing. I mean, here is a devoted catholic lady, she gets married to a jewish gentlemen, and now she converts to Judaism (or vice versa). What the hell is that? Pray to wrong God just to be on the same page with your husband? For convineince of going to the same house of God on Saturdays?
Let me ask you this, guys. Suppose you fall in love with a beautiful woman and marry her. Now, she happens to be a communist (or a fascist, pick one). Would you change your political affiliation to a communist (fascist)? Or assume the worst, -- she is a democrat. Would you force yourself into thinking that if someone has two cows, one cow should be taken away from you and given to someone without a cow?
It just doesn't make any sense to me, -- is there anything sacred left? Can someone explaing this American phenomenon to me, please?

[Thomas Paul]

It occurs because the person didn't have much faith to start with. A person with no political opinion will find it easy to marry someone with political opinions.

[Richard Hawkes]

I pretend to have feminist sympathies. Its the only way you can get laid these days ...

[Paul McKenna]

Not necessary. Arnold Schwarz..(cant bother to be spelling out his name) married JFK's niece. He is still a proud republican and she is still a proud democrat.
BTW, democrats dont take away your cow they'd let you keep the cow and take one mug of milk away to feed the cowless people.

[Paul McKenna]

I'm beginning to like Richard's way of thinking. Mr. Richard, you now officially have a disciple, please educate me in the 'British' thought process.

[Mapraputa Is]

One of the things that shocked me in the American culture was that "get married, change your faith" thing.
I am so glad I was brought up as an atheist! I don't have to change my faith with every new marriage.

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
One of the things that shocked me in the American culture was that "get married, change your faith" thing.
I am so glad I was brought up as an atheist! I don't have to change my faith with every new marriage.

If you are an atheist in America, watch out!!

"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."-- George Bush

[R K Singh]

"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."-- George Bush
Though I am reading this non-sense first time but still I believe that Bush-The-Great can say such trumpery

[Richard Hawkes]

Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:
If you are an atheist in America, watch out!!
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."-- George Bush
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did Bush really say that?
[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: Richard Hawkes ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Is this a genuine quote from G.W.Bush??? Oooh... If so, tell me, and tell me the truth, which, which God should I believe to be considered a good citizen?

[Richard Hawkes]

Originally posted by Sriraj Rajaram:
I'm beginning to like Richard's way of thinking. Mr. Richard, you now officially have a disciple, please educate me in the 'British' thought process.

Ha ha. Actually you would only learn bad things from me I'm afraid. Your mother would kill me probably...

[Mapraputa Is]

This is the first time when *two* people replied while I was typing my own post!

[Richard Hawkes]

This is the first time when *two* people replied while I was typing my own post! oh its happened again!..

[Mapraputa Is]

Just googled out:
"When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates had the following exchange with then Vice President Bush.
Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?
Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in god is important to me.
Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?
Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
Still not sure how trustworthy this source is.

[Mapraputa Is]

Hey, *your* "two people" are just one me!

[Richard Hawkes]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Still not sure how trustworthy this source is.

Well it was a long time ago. If you asked him the same questions now I think the answer might be different...

[Thomas Paul]

Note that this was not the current president, George W. Bush, but his father who supposedly made that comment. If true, it is a bit odd as Bush was not a particularly religious man.
[ April 28, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

[Richard Hawkes]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Note that this was not the current president, George W. Bush, but his father who made that comment.

well spotted!

[Mapraputa Is]

Note that this was not the current president, George W. Bush, but his father who made that comment.
*Now* this is confusing! Two presidents Bushes - it's just your American plot to drive me insane!

[Richard Hawkes]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
*Now* this is confusing! Two presidents Bushes - it's just your American plot to drive me insane!

That's what happens if you get them wet or feed them after midnight!

[Thomas Paul]

"When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987." There's something a bit odd here. This is more than a year before the election so it would be a little early for Bush to be campaigning for the presidency. The first primary would be more than 6 months away. And Chicago would be an odd place to campaign at this time since Iowa and New Hampshire would be more likely targets.
I did a little research and the only source that I can find for this a pamphlet by Madalyn O'Hair. O'Hair was the head of an atheist group until her murder by one of her employees.
A little further research shows that the only source for this is actually Rob Sherman, who was publisher of American Atheist magazine. Although other reporters supposedly heard the exchange none bothered reporting it.
[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Why was she murdered?
Is this what American atheists do to their employers?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Why was she murdered?
Is this what American atheists do to their employers?

She was murdered for an old fashioned reason... money.

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
I mean, here is a devoted catholic lady, she gets married to a jewish gentlemen, and now she converts to Judaism (or vice versa).

Well of course all Christianity is built on Judaism. After all Jesus was a practicing Jew. There are Thousands of Christians who are also practicing "Jews"..
Now the fundamental Jewish community is not very happy about that and would not call them "proper" Jews, however the more liberal Jewish community is not quite so picky.
Perhaps she is just practicing BOTH?

[Cindy Glass]

Check out some sites for Messianic Christians
Of course Jews who become Christians are just "seeing the light" finally .
[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Cindy Glass ]

[John Smith]

Perhaps she is just practicing BOTH?
How can you practice both "Jesus Christ, Son of God, our Savior" (Christianity) and "What Jesus? There was only Moses!" (Judaism)?
Perhaps she sold her soul to devil, -- that's more likely.

[Fred Grott]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Perhaps she is just practicing BOTH?
How can you practice both "Jesus Christ, Son of God, our Savior" (Christianity) and "What Jesus? There was only Moses!" (Judaism)?
Perhaps she sold her soul to devil, -- that's more likely.

A christian can undersadn and practice parts of judaism because christ formed the church on judaism cocnepts however jews cannto practice christianity becasue there is no basis fro any christian concepts in judaism..
Celar exampels..Heaven and Hell..Jews do not beleive in this Christinas do however..

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
One of the things that shocked me in the American culture was that "get married, change your faith" thing.

Sorry to introduce Indian society.
In India, genrally there are arranged marriage in same caste, where girls sir name might change if its not same as her husband's sirname.
Now, from last 1/2 decade, woman have refused to change their sirname and what they do, they add husband's sirname after their original sirname.
If there is love marriage and that is also inter-religion marriage, I have not seen, any of the partner is changing religion.
There was only one instance among my known persons where girl become muslim, just make her in-laws happy, still she practice hinduism.
For me, its difficult change my belives and so I think for others too.

[John Smith]

In India, genrally there are arranged marriage in same caste.
Arranged marriages? Cast system? Untouchable people, too? In the 21st century? I think the US should envade India and install a military government there until Indians come to their senses.

[Ashok Mash]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
I think the US should envade India and install a military government there until Indians come to their senses.

Yeah, they may just do it after they blow the moon out of our sky - because its just a big rock hanging in there and could come down any time.

[John Smith]

Really, how do you Indians feel about it? Do you sense that something is wrong? Or do you think that this is how it should be and you are happy with it? I guess I was in complete darkness, -- I thought that Ghandi inspired and persuaded you, -- apparently not.

[frank davis]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

Is this a genuine quote from G.W.Bush??? Oooh... If so, tell me, and tell me the truth, which, which God should I believe to be considered a good citizen?

Most religions are monotheistic, and even apparantly polytheistic religions are, at deeper study, monotheistic since most of them see the various divinities as expressions of the One Divinity at their deeper levels. So, the odds are that by picking any of the religions, regardless of the terminology they use, you are worshipping the same God. Remember that God can manifest in many ways, and also be perceived in varying ways, hence the multiplicity of religions. To be extra safe, go with the creator of earth and/or sky God.
May God be with you and open your eyes to Truth.
With love,
from His humble messenger,
Herb

[Ashok Mash]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Really, how do you Indians feel about it? Do you sense that something is wrong? Or do you think that this is how it should be and you are happy with it? I guess I was in complete darkness, -- I thought that Ghandi inspired and persuaded you, -- apparently not.

I think the problem is about perception. Its like my old fella in India watching Jerry Springer show gasping and coming to a conclusion that the West is full of absolute morons who sleep around a lot and swear too much.
With out under-estimating the evil Cast system that is still going on at some rural parts of India, its definitely not as bad as media bring it out.
Even those impossibly rural areas where bad practices still exist, its not as bad as it used to be, and its steadily getting better. Dalits (backward cast of early 1900s) enjoy the same rights and status everywhere, and in most of the cases, they even gets a preference. Law suits filed by anyone who belongs to any of those classified communities (classified as a community at risk because their fore fathers were from lower casts), get preference and will be processed quicker through India's slow, over burdened legal system. They even enjoy reservations in Universities, Civil services and even to the Parliament.
So, its just about how the media decides to publish it. Fact is that the number of unfortunate cast based crimes is extremely low considering the fact that we are talking about 1 billion other people living harmoniously ? that's 1/6th of the humanity.
[edited to add this]
Let me also add, that in Kerala, South of India, the govt. policy on reservations to the scheduled cast and scheduled tribes (Technical term for Dalit), the ordinary people who does not get any special attention from the government (Upper class of early 1900's) have staged many demonstrations to bring their plight to the attention of the authorities. Once or twice some unemployed youth set themselves on fire - public suicide - because they couldn't find a job in that highly competitive market, where everyone already had similar opportunity at Universities, but still Dalits had quota on most of the jobs, leaving the 'supposedly upper class' youth totally hopeless.
I think its already too late to remove the caste based reservations, and to bring 'economic status' based reservations in India.
[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Ashok Krishnan ]

[R K Singh]

Arranged marriages? Cast system?
Yes.
Untouchable people, too?
Urban India - 101% NO
Rural India - 40% NO
In the 21st century?
Yes, I do surprise too.
I think the US should envade India and install a military government there until Indians come to their senses.
Or should India envade US and install Indian Govt. there untill all US learn how to respect other societies

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Really, how do you Indians feel about it? apparently not.

I think Ashok has said almost all what I wanted to say.
>>Do you sense that something is wrong?
Yes, and work is going on for that.
>>Or do you think that this is how it should be and you are happy with it?
How much time, do you think, it will take to break 5000 yrs old culture.
It will take time. And believe me no one can help us till we want to help ourselves.
India was ruled by Mugals to British but no one could change them.
Now they are changing by themselves. And yes I like the change in positive direction.
Are you asking me, what will I prefer. I will prefer arrange marriage

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
In India, genrally there are arranged marriage in same caste.
Arranged marriages? Cast system? Untouchable people, too? In the 21st century? I think the US should envade India and install a military government there until Indians come to their senses.

Racism? Segregation? Greedy capitalists, too? In the 21st century? I think the US should invade US and install a military government there until Americans come to their senses.[/

[John Smith]

Sriraj Rajaram: Racism? Segregation? Greedy capitalists, too? In the 21st century? I think the US should invade US and install a military government there until Americans come to their senses.
Nothing wrong with having greedy capitalists, but yes, you got a point, we certainly have our share of problems originating from dark ages. Maybe we all should be invaded by alliens until we come to our senses?

[John Smith]

So, the odds are that by picking any of the religions, regardless of the terminology they use, you are worshipping the same God. May God be with you and open your eyes to Truth. With love, from His humble messenger, Herb
My dear friend Herb,
I love you, too, bro. However, I am having a really hard time (just like Map) deciding which God I should worship. The Christians tell me that the only way to save myself is to believe in Christ. The Muslims tell me that that I would be an infidel and go to hell if I am a Christian. The Jews tell me that eating pork is a mortal sin, while beef is OK (God looks over my diet, really?) and that Jesus is a fallacy. The Hindus tell me that eating beef is a mortal sin (what's so sacred about a cow?). The different religious groups argued and killed many, many millions of each other over the issue. The only thing that they all agree on is that "God Allmighty is great and infinite, but he needs your money." They even came up with the God-recommended figure, -- 10% of your income. Seems like those people on top of the God folowers are elaborate enterpreneurs openly ignoring what they preach: "money is the root of all evil".
Most interestingly, it appears that what you believe depends on where you were born and raised. That is, what you think you believe comes not from you, but from other people around you. You are told what to believe in. If it happens to be the Western world, somehow you know that Christ is your only saviour. If you are in the Middle East, somehow you know that the only true God is Allah. And if you were born in Soviet Union, you really know what it is all about, -- there is no God, religion is just "the opium for the masses".
You know what I think religion and God are? They are just a tradition, 10,000 (or more) years old, coming from the prehistoric times. It's still with us not because it is a good practice, or because there is any validity to it, but because it's so deeply embedded in our genes, from those times when the lightning struck the tree to produce fire that we used to get worm and cook the food. It's just like the class cast system in India and racial problems in America, -- it will take a long, long time before people come to their senses and realize that if there is such a thing as God all mighty, powerful, infinite, pure, loving, and just, he doesn't need people to worship him, -- in fact, it would be a mortal sin to do so.
You know what really disgusts me? It's when the military chaplains come to the American troups and bless them to kill: "Let Christ be with you". Is there anything more practical, ridiculous and hypocritical than this? Molesting an altar boy by a catholic priest is 10 times less evil than that.
Have you guys seen the movie Breaking The Waves? I insist that you see it.
Your loving friend,
Eugene.
[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]

[Melvin Menezes]

EK: ...
Applause!
EK: ... if there is such a thing as God all mighty, powerful, infinite, pure, loving, and just, he doesn't need people to worship him, -- in fact, it would be a mortal sin to do so.
You are right. He doesn't need people to worship him. He never told me personally to worship him. But I just do worship sometimes anyways to show him that I respect and fear him. Hey, that's the only way I can communicate back .
(well, honestly, here's the real reason i worship. pshhh! don't you tell anybody, okay? I am actually playing it safe, kindof, you know !, just in case...if i have to ask his forgiveness for things i was not supposed to do)

[Melvin Menezes]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
So, the odds are that by picking any of the religions, regardless of the terminology they use, you are worshipping the same God. May God be with you and open your eyes to Truth. With love, from His humble messenger, Herb
My dear friend Herb,
I love you, too, bro. However, I am having a really hard time (just like Map) deciding which God I should worship. The Christians tell me that the only way to save myself is to believe in Christ. The Muslims tell me that that I would be an infidel and go to hell if I am a Christian. The Jews tell me that eating pork is a mortal sin, while beef is OK (God looks over my diet, really?) and that Jesus is a fallacy. The Hindus tell me that eating beef is a mortal sin (what's so sacred about a cow?). The different religious groups argued and killed many, many millions of each other over the issue. The only thing that they all agree on is that "God Allmighty is great and infinite, but he needs your money." They even came up with the God-recommended figure, -- 10% of your income. Seems like those people on top of the God folowers are elaborate enterpreneurs openly ignoring what they preach: "money is the root of all evil".
Most interestingly, it appears that what you believe depends on where you were born and raised. That is, what you think you believe comes not from you, but from other people around you. You are told what to believe in. If it happens to be the Western world, somehow you know that Christ is your only saviour. If you are in the Middle East, somehow you know that the only true God is Allah. And if you were born in Soviet Union, you really know what it is all about, -- there is no God, religion is just "the opium for the masses".
You know what I think religion and God are? They are just a tradition, 10,000 (or more) years old, coming from the prehistoric times. It's still with us not because it is a good practice, or because there is any validity to it, but because it's so deeply embedded in our genes, from those times when the lightning struck the tree to produce fire that we used to get worm and cook the food. It's just like the class cast system in India and racial problems in America, -- it will take a long, long time before people come to their senses and realize that if there is such a thing as God all mighty, powerful, infinite, pure, loving, and just, he doesn't need people to worship him, -- in fact, it would be a mortal sin to do so.
You know what really disgusts me? It's when the military chaplains come to the American troups and bless them to kill: "Let Christ be with you". Is there anything more practical, ridiculous and hypocritical than this? Molesting an altar boy is 10 times less evil than that.
Your loving friend,
Eugene.
[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]

Just captured your post permenantly so that you cannot edit it again and again and again... I saw you already edited it thrice. Now this is a memento pattern in action!