The Scientific Miracles

[sara jal]

I am astonished to know that Quran (the last and final revelation of God) contains unbelievable scientific facts discovered just in this century.
This is really amazing.
�Astronomy!
�Mountains!
�Human Embryology!
�Oceans And Seas!
�The Movement Of Clouds!
�The Cerebrum!
�The Shape Of The Earth!
�The Expansion Of The Universe!
�The Sensory Characteristic Of The Skin!
�Formation Of Iron!
�The Lowest Part On The Face Of The Earth!
�The Sequence Of Day And Night!
�The Snow Age!
�New Diseases!
�Cnn Top Ten Discoveries Of 1998
You can find more info on the following sites:
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm
http://www.science4islam.com/
http://islamicity.com/science/

[Anonymous]

Hats off to Kuran

[Anonymous]

Pah! mountains? I don't believe it!
So long as no-one is plotting to blow us up, end the world or hold religeous ceremonies in my back garden then you can believe what you like, unfortunately too many people are like sheep that will just follow a cause without question, try sitting back and look at the REAL big picture for a change.

[frank davis]

Originally posted by sara jal:
I am astonished to know that Quran (the last and final revelation of God) contains unbelievable scientific facts discovered just in this century.
This is really amazing.
�Astronomy!
�Mountains!
�Human Embryology!
�Oceans And Seas!
�The Movement Of Clouds!
�The Cerebrum!
�The Shape Of The Earth!
�The Expansion Of The Universe!
�The Sensory Characteristic Of The Skin!
�Formation Of Iron!
�The Lowest Part On The Face Of The Earth!
�The Sequence Of Day And Night!
�The Snow Age!
�New Diseases!
�Cnn Top Ten Discoveries Of 1998
You can find more info on the following sites:
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm
http://www.science4islam.com/
http://islamicity.com/science/

Instead of giving a list of claims and 3 different URLS to support those claims. I challenge you to post just one claim and
document the support for that one claim, and let us discuss one claim in detail. A true believer in Allah should find this easy to do.

[Thomas Paul]

Astronomy was only invented this century? I guess all those ancient sailors must have steered by the wind and not the stars. :roll:
And no one knew that mountains existed until this century? Astounding!
I thought the ancient Greeks had figured out the Earth was round 3000 years ago.
By the way, this topic was discussed once already and no one cared.
[ June 17, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

[Bhau Mhatre]

If I may ask...
Can someone with the real knowledge tell me a little bit about the following? I am seriously interested in knowing those details. I tried google, but all i get are various web-sites that either explain the meanings of the text or they refer to some book in amazon.com with an ISBN number. I m not interested in any modern day book. I want to know about that one particular book that was written then.
Where is that original book right now? In Mecca? in a museum?
How was it written? Using a leaf as a pen? What was the material of the paper and what was used as ink?
How many pages of text is it? What's the size of each page?
What was the original language in which Koran was written?
What is the font of text called? What was the font size and how many words were in a page on an average?
How many total words in the book?
Is it a single book or a set of books? how many chapters? or there was no concept of a chapter then?
How long did it take for the book to be completed?
Who was the first person to read it? and who/where was it first copied?
Add more information that you want.
Thanks for answering.

[Paul Stevens]

Nostradamus predicted this thread would be started today.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Paul Stevens:
Nostradamus predicted this thread would be started today.

I just confirmend it. Paul is right.

[Thomas Paul]

And the Bible COde confirmed that you would confirm Paul's confirmation of Nostradamus predicting this thread.

[Chris Baron]

I knew Thomas would say that

[Michael Morris]

Originally posted by Chris Baron:
I knew Thomas would say that

And Thomas knew that Paul would say that Nostradamus would predict that Chris would know what Thomas would say, and now I have a headache.

[Gail Schlentz]

I knew Micheal would have a headache.
Psychic? No. I just knew his daughter was recently married!

[Michael Morris]

Originally posted by Elaine Micheals:
I knew Micheal would have a headache.
Psychic? No. I just knew his daughter was recently married!

And an empty checking account and several maxed credit cards.

[sara jal]

To Mumbai cha bhau
Please visit http://www.alhewar.com and will answer all your questions.

[sara jal]

You can also visit :
http://www.sultan.org/
http://www.todayislam.com/
http://www.islamworld.net/
http://www.islam-guide.com/
http://islam101.com/index.htm
http://www.islammessage.com/en/
http://islam101.com/religions/index.htm
This page mostly contains a selection of articles on topics pertinent to Islam or common to Islam, Christianity, Judaism and other religions. These articles provide Islamic perspectives on common issues and highlight differences among the various religions.

[frank davis]

Originally posted by sara jal:
You can also visit :
http://www.sultan.org/
http://www.todayislam.com/
http://www.islamworld.net/
http://www.islam-guide.com/
http://islam101.com/index.htm
http://www.islammessage.com/en/
http://islam101.com/religions/index.htm
This page mostly contains a selection of articles on topics pertinent to Islam or common to Islam, Christianity, Judaism and other religions. These articles provide Islamic perspectives on common issues and highlight differences among the various religions.

Ah, still not up to the task of discussing any one of the amazing facts in the Koran
I thought your faith was strong?

[Paul Stevens]

Check this out Herb!

[John Smith]

Ah, still not up to the task of discussing any one of the amazing facts in the Koran.
Looks like the original poster is not up to the challenge, so I'll quote my favorite passages from the website that he referenced:
Claim:
------
"The Quran, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago, mentioned facts only recently discovered or proven by scientists. This proves without doubt that the Quran must be the literal word of God, revealed by Him to the Prophet Muhammad."
Proof:
------
God has said in the Quran:
"Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it...." (Quran, 24:43)
Confirmation from scientists:
"Meteorologists have only recently come to know these details of cloud formation, structure, and function by using advanced equipment like planes, satellites, computers, balloons, and other equipment, to study wind and its direction, to measure humidity and its variations, and to determine the levels and variations of atmospheric pressure."
Therefore, the original claim is true, the Quran was the literal word of God, and the Christians are all infidels who will burn in hell. QED.
Eugene.

[Sara Jahan]

Originally posted by sara jal:
You can also visit :
http://www.sultan.org/
http://www.todayislam.com/
http://www.islamworld.net/
http://www.islam-guide.com/
http://islam101.com/index.htm
http://www.islammessage.com/en/
http://islam101.com/religions/index.htm
This page mostly contains a selection of articles on topics pertinent to Islam or common to Islam, Christianity, Judaism and other religions. These articles provide Islamic perspectives on common issues and highlight differences among the various religions.

Hey we could be Ranch sisters! My name is Sara too! But only here. The real Sara (or the girl whose name I have be borrowed for the ranch!) was my 19-year old friend Ankit's ex-girl. Don't tell me you have borrowed from the same source or may be you are the real Sara?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
"Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it...."

And if you hung out with Tom in kindergartne you would have heard Tom say that, too. So maybe Tom is God! Bow down to me you infidels for I know that rain comes from clouds!!!

[Michael Morris]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
Ah, still not up to the task of discussing any one of the amazing facts in the Koran.
Looks like the original poster is not up to the challenge, so I'll quote my favorite passages from the website that he referenced:
Claim:
------
"The Quran, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago, mentioned facts only recently discovered or proven by scientists. This proves without doubt that the Quran must be the literal word of God, revealed by Him to the Prophet Muhammad."
Proof:
------
God has said in the Quran:
"Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it...." (Quran, 24:43)
Confirmation from scientists:
"Meteorologists have only recently come to know these details of cloud formation, structure, and function by using advanced equipment like planes, satellites, computers, balloons, and other equipment, to study wind and its direction, to measure humidity and its variations, and to determine the levels and variations of atmospheric pressure."
Therefore, the original claim is true, the Quran was the literal word of God, and the Christians are all infidels who will burn in hell. QED.
Eugene.

Wow, I may have to reconsider my religious affiliation after that. :roll:

[Bhau Mhatre]

Originally posted by sara jal:
Please visit http://www.alhewar.com and will answer all your questions.

I looked at that web site. It talks about arab civilization, music and other islam related things but i could not find any information about the "original koran book", about its size, its whereabouts, number of pages, words, ink used, paper material, etc. Can you post your answers here? Thanks.

[Cindy Glass]

Funny how Job talked about the Clouds function waaaaaaay back before Jesus even (see Job 37:11). Heck there is extensive talk throughout the old testiment of clouds involvement in moderating heat, direction of cloud movement, wind directions and their effects on weather etc.
Yet "Meteorologists have only recently come to know these details of cloud formation" - yeah right :roll:

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau
I looked at that web site. It talks about arab civilization, music and other islam related things but i could not find any information about the "original koran book"

try these links
here
here
here
and here

[frank davis]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:

God has said in the Quran:
"Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it...." (Quran, 24:43)

Rain from clouds?
Every time I try to comment on that I burst out into snickering and then have to start typing all over again. I give up. Eugene is a genius for picking that example. Really, I can say nothing more without bursting into a bout of snickering. I think Eugene is trying to make me unemployed again.

[Bhau Mhatre]

Mr. nice guy,
I am sorry, but the only thing i could find in those links is that they are trying to explain the sigificance of the various numbers such as 114, 786, 19, etc. While mathematicians can debate for years over the greatness of various other numbers too, including real, complex, and imaginary, i m more interested in knowing the data about the book itself and not the meanings or interpretation of its contents or the number of times a particular word occurs. One thing i did gather from one of the links is that Mohammed simply put down those verses (where? how? on rocks? leafs? papers? no answer) and then other followers compiled them in a book (where? how? using what? glue? staples? no answer). Instead of providing links to various sites, why don't you just type in those answers here?
On a side note... I noticed that those links are trying to prove that Quran is from God based on some mathematical structure. So if a person accepts that proof, then isn' it implied that the person also accepts the absoluteness of mathematics (especially the decimal number system that the site is using as proof) and that mathematics is above God so much so that even God needed to design his book in a mathematical structure to prove its authneticity? Well, i don't want to get dragged into an infinite and indefinite debate about Maths v/s God, but i am still looking for answers to those questions. Thanks.

[Michael Morris]

Maybe the 70s diva Judy Collins had a prophetic streak as well?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Michael Morris:
Maybe the 70s diva Judy Collins had a prophetic streak as well?

I really don't know clouds at all
Ha! Obviously a heathen!

[Pakka Desi]

Mumbai Cha Bhau,
You'll not get any answers from these posters because:
1. They haven't read Document about fallacies. And if they have read it, they are not interested in having an intelligent debate because they don't have any valid argument.
2. They are name sake muslims who don't really know their religion well. All they know is what an Imam/Mullah tells them. And that's why they can only point you to vague internet pages instead of taking up the challenge and answering the questions.
3. Nobody has an answer to these questions because Islam is a religion. Like any other religion, it is a faith based system which does not follow any particular logic. It follows faith.
In general, I think, if any religion could give logical and verifiable explanation to anything, it would not be a religion. It would be science. Some people fail to realize this and try to equate religion with science. While religion has its own place in the society, trouble begins when people don't clearly demarcate religion and logic.
[ June 18, 2003: Message edited by: Pakka Desi ]

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Mumbai Cha Bhau
One thing i did gather from one of the links is that Mohammed simply put down those verses (where? how? on rocks? leafs? papers?

Prophet Mohammed was an illiterate.The text of the Quran was delivered orally by the Prophet Muhammad to his followers as it was revealed to him.he actually told quran to it's subordinates.it's bihearted by the followers of mohammed by generations.they were called as 'Hafiz'(mean the people who bihearted quran).quran actually having an artistic form of reading also(qira-ath),which is also to be learned.i donno u noticed it,quran is read similerly by all people.it's got a uniform reading style.still 'hafiz' people are there in muslim community.still lot of people having quran biheart.

Originally posted by Pakka Desi
They are name sake muslims who don't really know their religion well. All they know is what an Imam/Mullah tells them.

how many hindu's know gita very well?.
every religeon in this world got a large content.so it's not possible to know all of that for their followers.islam is not an exception.only interested people will study deeply.rest of them just follow by belief.every religeon is like that.islam also.but islam is having some pattern for life.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by <Mr nice guy>:

how many hindu's know gita very well?.

Many. Probably there are more Hindus who have never read Gita than there are who have. But then we are not discussing with them. When you are discussing theology with people, then be prepared to answer questions. If you haven't read your religion well, then don't jump into the debate. If you are saying something about your religion, then be prepared to defend it. Or accept that it cannot be defended because it is devoid of any logic. There is nothing wrong in that.

Originally posted by <Mr nice guy>:

Every religeon in this world got a large content.so it's not possible to know all of that for their followers.islam is not an exception.only interested people will study deeply.rest of them just follow by belief.every religeon is like that.islam also.but islam is having some pattern for life.

There is no but. Islam is no exceptional religion. What do you mean by "pattern for life"?? What do you mean by "biheart"?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Pakka Desi
What do you mean by "pattern for life"?? What do you mean by "biheart"?

How much god is logical?.that much islam is logical.i cant prove there is god.but i believes there is god.for me,it's more belief than logic.
Pattern for life means,if u believes in islam,u must believe in only one god(compulsory),u must pray 5 times in a day to worship to god(compulsory),u must take one month fasting in an year(compulsory).ladies and gents having their own dress codes(compulsory).u must give a certain percentage of ur income to poor people as zakath(compulsory).and lot more.
There are a lot of compulsory activities to become a muslim.so there is a pattern.every muslim should follow that pattern.there lot of noncompulsory activities also to make humen better,they called sunnath.
Byhearting mean learning and storing the data in one's brain as it's usual form.we people call it as byheart.
I know pakka desi very much by previous posts.as i read this pakka desi i believes he is a highly communaly toxicated narrow minded person.so i dont know the real intention of pakka desi.

[Bhau Mhatre]

From Mr. nice guy
---------------------------
Prophet Mohammed was an illiterate. The text of the Quran was delivered orally by the Prophet Muhammad to his followers ...
---------------------------
But the link http://www.submission.org/islam/faq3.html that you gave in your previous post says the following
---------------------------
PROPHET MUHAMMAD WROTE THE REVELATIONS WITH HIS OWN HAND
The Quran has no support of the opinion that Muhammad was illiterate. The first revelation was "Read," and included the statement "God teaches by means of the pen" (96:1-4), and the second revelation was "The Pen" (68:1). The only function of the pen is to write.
Muslim scholars of the first two centuries after the Quran could not understand the Quran's challenge to produce anything like it. They had no idea about the Quran's mathematical composition (Proof that the Quran is from God). When similar work in literary excellence was produced the Muslim scholars then decided to proclaim Muhammad an illiterate man!
---------------------------
So which version is true?
Another interesting thing from that same web-site page
---------
The Prophet was a successful merchant. The "Muslim scholars" who fabricated the illiteracy lie forgot that there were no numbers during the Prophet's time; the letters of the alphabet were used as numbers. As a merchant dealing with numbers every day, the Prophet had to know the alphabet, from one to one-thousand.
---------
On one hand it claims that there were no numbers during that time, which means that the decimal number system was developed later. So how can one accept the proof of Quran by mathematical composition based on decimal number system that we use today? How would you prove it to the Romans or to even to others if we were to use a different number system?

Pakka Desi,
I would like to have similar information about Geeta, Bible, and other books too if someone can provide. How, what material, etc. If you could use a different thread for that, it would be nice.

Btw, I got answers to two questions from those links. Quran was revealed (not written) over a period of 23 years and it has 114 chapters (unless anyone has a different opinion/source)

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau:
Pakka Desi,
I would like to have similar information about Geeta, Bible, and other books too if someone can provide. How, what material, etc. If you could use a different thread for that, it would be nice.

www.google.com is what I would use. I don't have any links for Gita handy because I don't feel an urge to prove something to somebody. Gita has philosophy. There is no right or wrong there.
As I undersatand, Hindu literature was also transfered from generation to generation orally. So there is no proof of what was the original stuff, how much has changed, how much of it is just noise. So I don't think anybody can tell you about the material, size, style etc.

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by <Mr nice guy>:

I know pakka desi very much by previous posts.as i read this pakka desi i believes he is a highly communaly toxicated narrow minded person.so i dont know the real intention of pakka desi.

If I tell you my real intention, you won't believe me. I just vent my anger by arguing. I like blasting stupid posts (from my POV) like this one and I also like getting blasted for my stupid arguments. That's fun for me. If you have the guts then answer my questions. But before you do, make sure you read
the document about fallacies.

[Thomas Paul]

As for the gospels of the New Testament:
The earliest version we have are from the late 2nd century CE. We have scraps of some gospels that date from earlier in the 2nd century. We do know that at least some of the gospels existed earlier than that from other evidence. For example, we have a letter written by Ignatius of Antioch in 110 CE in which he discusses the gospel of Matthew. But it is generally accepted that all the gospels were written sometime between the death of Jesus around 30 CE and the middle of the 2nd century, 130 CE.
The gospels were written on papyrus which was the common writing medium of the time. They were either written in Greek or written in Aramaic (or Hebrew) and translated into Greek at a very early date. We possess no Aramaic or Hebrew versions of the gospels (excpet for obvious translations from the Greek versions) but some researchers believe that Mark exhibits curious Greek phrasing that may have been translated from Aramaic (or maybe Mark wrote in Greek but was a native speaker of Aramaic).
Most of the letters from Paul that make up the second part of the New Testament are believed by scholars to be genuine. Those letters would have been written between 50 and 60 CE. Some of the other letters may have been written by followers of Paul between 60 and 70 CE. There is some debate about the letters of Peter which may been have written late in the first century by a follower of Peter.

[Bhau Mhatre]

Thanks for the input Thomas. If i understood it correctly, the whole Bible was not written by one person. The different texts were composed into a single entity called Bible by those who recorded the life of Jesus and his teachings 'after' he died. (my knowledge of that part of history is really bad). Comparing it to Quran it is a little different that claims that it was entirely written by one person transforming revelations into text as they came. So papyrus must have been available in the middle east too around 600 A.D. I m wondering if Quran was written on that too.
Btw, i did not know about the BCE/CE system (always used BC/AD) and so after reading your post i did a google on it. I came upon these two interesting pages
http://www.studentsfriend.com/feed/topic11.html
http://www.radix.net/~dglenn/defs/ce.html

[Pakka Desi]

Recording of Hindu texts such as Gita orally is probably understandable because it has been dated about 5000BC when there was no printing.
Now, if as Thomas says, Bible (and other related text) were 'written' then why Koran, which is dated about 700 years after Bible, was recorded 'biheart' as Mr. Nice guy says?? Does it make sense? I would imagine, Koran would use even better ways to record the teachings of prophet Mohd. than Bible.

[Michael Morris]

Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau:
Thanks for the input Thomas. If i understood it correctly, the whole Bible was not written by one person. The different texts were composed into a single entity called Bible by those who recorded the life of Jesus and his teachings 'after' he died. (my knowledge of that part of history is really bad). Comparing it to Quran it is a little different that claims that it was entirely written by one person transforming revelations into text as they came. So papyrus must have been available in the middle east too around 600 A.D. I m wondering if Quran was written on that too.
Btw, i did not know about the BCE/CE system (always used BC/AD) and so after reading your post i did a google on it. I came upon these two interesting pages
http://www.studentsfriend.com/feed/topic11.html
http://www.radix.net/~dglenn/defs/ce.html

Actually the Old Testament was already pretty much in place. The final Canon of the Bible was settled on at the Council of Hippo (in North Africa, St. Augustine was the Bishop of Hippo) in 393, over three-and-half centuries after the death of Jesus. The Protestant Christians use a differnt Canon, specifically deleting Maccabees I and II, Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach and some portions of Daniel that were written in Aramaic. All of the deletions are from the Old Testament. The New Testament Canons are identical.
[ June 19, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Morris ]

[Jim Yingst]

[MCB]: Btw, i did not know about the BCE/CE system (always used BC/AD) and so after reading your post i did a google on it
Interesting links you found. Speaking as an atheist myself I really don't care whether people use AD or CE, or whether the C refers to "Common" or "Christian". What I do find offensive is the way both BC and BCE dates are off by one (from my perspective) because they skip year zero. How many years difference is there between March 15, 2 BC and March 15, 2 AD? Turns out it's three - the counting goes 2 BC, 1 BC, 1 AD, 2 AD. This might have been the best people could do with Roman numerals, which had no zero, but clinging to this system in modern times reeks of mathematical illiteracy to me. A year like 2 BC is really -1 as far as I'm concerned. Astronomers do this right - why is most everyone else so darn backwards? :roll:
So, tying (very) loosely back to the original topic - how does the Muslim calendar refer to pre-Hegira dates? Is there a year zero? I don't suppose the Quran had anything to say on this topic, did it? I mean, if a scripture actually said something like "thou shalt make proper use of the number zero so that thy later generations will not curse thy name" then hey, I'd be pretty impressed. OK, the Quran would probably not sound so much like the King James Bible, but you get the point.
[ June 19, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]