H1-B visa abolished!

[Nanhesru Ningyake]

That could be the headline you may see in the near future - thanks to hardworking Congressman Tom Tancredo.
He has introduced a bill asking for just that - abolishment of the H1-B category of visas. If this Bill passes - what are the ramifications, I wonder.
[ July 13, 2003: Message edited by: Nanhesru Ningyake ]

[Randall Twede]

well, isnt the purported reason they need them gone anyway? what with so many programmers out of work here.

[D Kumar]

Nanhesru Ningyake - I guess you are in US and worried/.

[vi kam]

abolishment of the H1-B category of visas

I dont think they will do it, there are i suspect powerful forces at play here. Most of the big companies are for cheap foreign labour, which is what a H1-B worker is.
I am not very sure but wasn't there, about a month or so ago the news of L-1 visa misuse, and talk of regulating that, there was a bill presented to senate or something like that.
Well I personally think, people will take the view that L type visa should go. (Disclaimer :- I am not a H1 visa holder - well not any more )
Any rate one of the visa types will probably be retained, i am inclined to think it will be H-1 albeit with a 65,000 cap on it for the time being.

[S. Palanigounder]

It is impossible! I think we can see the quota
change.

[Nanhesru Ningyake]

>I guess you are in US and worried
Nope not really. I am returning home to India in the near future, having completed six years on the H1-B visa

[D Kumar]

Nanhesru Ningyake
i wanna to know your name.

[vi kam]

i wanna to know your name

you want to say "Ninna hesru nanage beku"
its been a while, but i think i can still manage little small talk in Kannada.

[Nanhesru Ningyake]

[Derek Grey]

Originally posted by Nanhesru Ningyake:
That could be the headline you may see in the near future - thanks to hardworking Congressman Tom Tancredo.
He has introduced a bill asking for just that - abolishment of the H1-B category of visas. If this Bill passes - what are the ramifications, I wonder.
[ July 13, 2003: Message edited by: Nanhesru Ningyake ]

Hey...didn't this guy try abolishing H-1 some years ago ???..and FAILED.
I understand his patriotism....but that's bull in the businessworld...they don't buy this kinda stuff. They call it narrow-minded thinking.
There are many variables to consider and it's not like we have 9 million H1B's. We are a small fraction of the employed people here.
They should think of something solid if they really want to solve this unemployment.

[Arjun Shastry]

Simple solution is make employer compulsory to publish the requirement when he needs foreign people.and after hiring them makes him to send copies of salary slips to concerned Govt. department.This way everybody will come to know on what requirements employer is hiring and whether he is exploiting foreign engineers.

[Paul Stevens]

Originally posted by San Tiruvan:

Hey...didn't this guy try abolishing H-1 some years ago ???..and FAILED.
I understand his patriotism....but that's bull in the businessworld...they don't buy this kinda stuff. They call it narrow-minded thinking.
There are many variables to consider and it's not like we have 9 million H1B's. We are a small fraction of the employed people here.
They should think of something solid if they really want to solve this unemployment.

Why should we have a program for foreign workers when there are plenty of workers here? Why is it narrow-minded thinging to say there are plenty of out of work US workers yet we still are bringing in foreign workers for the same job? There might have been a case for them a few years ago but not now. Why shouldn't the program be suspended and no further workers allowed in?
You can't just dump those here now. But why allow more to enter? It also isn't a matter of how many? It is a matter of the program pupose. To provide for short falls in a needed sector. Where are the short falls?

[Chitra Kumar]

From the title, I thought that the visa program was already abolished. I read that the GAO report will be discussed in the senate in September and then the Congress may act. The issue has become very emotional and political now. With the unemployment rate very high, the jobless claims still pouring in and the basic economy still very weak with recovery not yet in sight, I feel that the Congress will have no choice but to act on it. The only question is how far.

[Krish Pat]

Originally posted by Paul Stevens:

Why should we have a program for foreign workers when there are plenty of workers here? Why is it narrow-minded thinging to say there are plenty of out of work US workers yet we still are bringing in foreign workers for the same job? There might have been a case for them a few years ago but not now. Why shouldn't the program be suspended and no further workers allowed in?
You can't just dump those here now. But why allow more to enter? It also isn't a matter of how many? It is a matter of the program pupose. To provide for short falls in a needed sector. Where are the short falls?

Agree with Paul's reasoning. Getting in more foreign "cheap" workers will compound the existing unemployement and increase dissension towards foreign workers. I presume the new bill ,if passed, will affect inflow of foreign workers by drastically cutting down the number of H1-B's issued or making it difficult to procure one while leaving the existing workers here untouched.
But knowing how bills are passed,never know whats in store till it actually happens.

[Cindy Glass]

Of course "cheap" is a relative term.
Why should US companies pay for "cheap" H1-B workers when they can just have the work done by folks over in India for "dirt cheap".
I fear the Indian H1-B workers are going to have the same struggle that the rest of the IT workforce in the US is having.
Of course they had better watch out for Brazil. That is our newest source of labor. AND they are in the same time zone, which is a BIG advantage.

[Anonymous]

I was just wondering if the law is passed what is going to happen to indian with H1-b visa in US. Will they be sent home immediately ??
US professional are paid 5 times more than indians. Yes, it means that we are cheap.
What about the quality of work done by INDIANS? Is it bad , good , just ok ? I would appreciate frank assesment

[Paul Stevens]

Originally posted by <indian>:
I was just wondering if the law is passed what is going to happen to indian with H1-b visa in US. Will they be sent home immediately ??

Depends on how congress writes it.

Originally posted by <indian>:

What about the quality of work done by INDIANS? Is it bad , good , just ok ? I would appreciate frank assesment

Same as all programmers. You will get some good, some ok and some bad. But it isn't relative to the discussion of should the US be admitting more H1B at this time.

[Amitabh Sharma]

Are you telling me that they are going to Stop issuing H1 visas all together?
i can understand more controlled process, fewer visas but to completly stop it is overreacting IMHO.
Indian tech workers should prepare for bad times.

[Tim Cerillo]

I know a lot of foreign teachers, architects, and accountants in California and Texas who're on H1B. I don't know how this would affect them.

[Anonymous]

if guys from US come back to INDIA we will face tough competition from these guys.

[Arjun Shastry]

and now Petition against anti H1B Bill

[Kevin Thompson]

Nanhresu: You question was - "What will be the ramifications of abolishing H1-B Visas?".
The answer #1 is:
I will go back to work, as will many of my fellow peers in the IT industry.
The answer #2 is:
The working conditions will improve dramatically. I have found that working with foreign born men (from Pakistan/India/Arabic countries) is just physically, spiritally, and emotionally draining and exhausting. It would be like a wonderful and joyous thing to not have to deal with the chronic workplace issues that are created because of H1B Visas.
Kevin

[Anupam Sinha]

Indian labour being called cheap. Well its not like that. First consider what exactly you pay for all the normal day to day things. Like a loaf or bread, a haircut(not day to day), car servicing(again not day to day), etc. These things are way too much cheaper in India. I guess that a haircut costs around 10-15 $ and in India you can get one around for 40-80 Cents(20-40 Rs.). So for you it may appear cheap. Secondly when US companies came to India (eg Coke and Pepsi) they started selling their products at very low prices. Well it was because they can afford it. Now the same is happening in US. Either the work is being transffered to India or the companies in US are hiring Indians. I don't say that one is better than the other. It's a simple case of maximising profits. When the economy was in such a bad state it was very much required to revive the economy. I guess in a few months time the once roaring IT economy will be back and there won't be such discussions.

[Anupam Sinha]

If this H1-B is abolished do you think that the problem would be solved. Why won't the IT companies transfer their work to India. Why shouldn't this be taken as, earlier to the dot-com burst people were irrationally paid and after the dot-com burst the people are now being paid rationally. In India as well there are various companies that opening shops in China because of cheap labour. A lot of cheap chinese goods is being dumped in the Indian market. Well I guess that it's mainly a matter of being cheap. Would anyone prefer a same quality working software developed at 100 $(may have been developed by non-US programmers) or 1000$ software(gauranteed to be developed by US programmers).

[Jim Yingst]

[KT]: The working conditions will improve dramatically.
Dunno about that. It sounds to me like I might find myself dealing more with intolerance and bigotry in the workplace instead. Frankly I'd prefer the H1-B's.
[ July 19, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Max Habibi]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
I have found that working with foreign born men (from Pakistan/India/Arabic countries) is just physically, spiritally, and emotionally draining and exhausting. It would be like a wonderful and joyous thing to not have to deal with the chronic workplace issues that are created because of H1B Visas.
Kevin

Kevin,
It sounds like you've had some negative experiences working with people from different cultures. I hope you find a position soon, and that you'll have more positive interactions in the future.
All best,
M

[J. Yan]

Originally posted by Anupam Sinha:
If this H1-B is abolished do you think that the problem would be solved. Why won't the IT companies transfer their work to India. Why shouldn't this be taken as, earlier to the dot-com burst people were irrationally paid and after the dot-com burst the people are now being paid rationally. In India as well there are various companies that opening shops in China because of cheap labour. A lot of cheap chinese goods is being dumped in the Indian market. Well I guess that it's mainly a matter of being cheap. Would anyone prefer a same quality working software developed at 100 $(may have been developed by non-US programmers) or 1000$ software(gauranteed to be developed by US programmers).

Hi,
First, please do me a favor. Please don't compare yourself with Chinese. I always feel insulted when the word "Chinese" came out from Indian's mouth, even when you try to please us. I think most Chinese will feel the same way. Please leave us alone, Indians. Thanks! No offense
I don't have many interests knowing what's going on in India, but since you guys always want to pick China as your benchmark. I recently did some researches on India, and below is what I found:
1.) 1/3 Indians live under $1/day life standard, based on the latest 2003 UN data.
2.) Indian's GNP per capita is near the bottom in the rankings of all the countries, and far below Chinese.
So, why did a lot of Indian companies go to China for cheap labor? You guys are supposed to provide the cheapest labor in the world (not necessarily the cheapest goods). But I never saw any industry products from India, even the simple one, such as computer mouse. I really don't know what you guys did to make a living before US outsourced some IT services to you, which just happened a few years ago. I think US saved both your life and face, so you can find a decent excuse.
I also checked the Sino-India trade pattern. The majority products China exported to India are electronic and industry products, and textile; the majority products India exported to China are all kinds of raw materials. During your PM�s recent visit to China, India added another new product to its export list: Mango, which was proudly announced in one of Indian major new papers. So, India basically is a raw material supplier to China, and now I understand why Chinese products are so cheap.
Indians exchange their raw materials with Chinese electronic and industry products, and say Chinese products are cheaper and with inferior quality. LOL. I always think Chinese lack some senses of humor, but you guys seem to have too much. One problem I have with your guys is sometimes I don�t know if you guys are kidding or serious.
[ July 19, 2003: Message edited by: J. Yan ]

[Anupam Sinha]

I always feel insulted when the word "Chinese" came out from Indian's mouth, even when you try to please us. I think most Chinese will feel the same way.

What made you think so that I am in anyway pleasing you. What makes you think so that most chinese will think so.
Labour is still cheap in China. If India did provided the raw material (which I am doubtful of) then why can't India itself develop the product. Indian products are generally costlier than there Chinese counterparts. Had Indian labour been cheap then it would had been really difficult for China to compare with Indian products pricewise atleast and I am not kidding.
[ July 20, 2003: Message edited by: Anupam Sinha ]

[Nanhesru Ningyake]

I have found that working with foreign born men (from Pakistan/India/Arabic countries) is just physically, spiritally, and emotionally draining and exhausting
Can you elucidate? I'm curious - what's it about P/I/A men that drains and exhausts you?

[Kevin Thompson]

Nanhesru:
The USA has a multi-ethnic, multi-gender thing going on. I guess we will call it the "Melting Pot". It is normal to work with different races, different genders, different ages, different religions.
People socialized in other countries that are not "westernized", may or may not have the above experiences in the workplace.
I have personally worked with men here on H1B visas, that have been born & raised in a non-western societies that have no expereinces in their entire life dealing with the "melting pot" in the workplace.
For example, how many men do you know who were born & raised in Pakistan, who are totally at ease with a woman as their "peer", or a woman as their "manager"?
How common is it in these countires to have women in positions of management & authority?
Kevin

[Paul McKenna]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
For example, how many men do you know who were born & raised in Pakistan, who are totally at ease with a woman as their "peer", or a woman as their "manager"?
How common is it in these countires to have women in positions of management & authority?
Kevin

I surely dont know about Pakistan or Arabic countries but it is very common to have a woman in a position of authority in India. Maynot be as common as in the US but I worked under two women and there were no frictions in the workplace to the best of my knowledge. Infact, you may be surprised to know that the Indian government offers tax breaks to working women in order to make them join the workforce.

[Vinod John]

Originally posted by Kevin Thompson:
Nanhesru:
How common is it in these countires to have women in positions of management & authority?
Kevin

You got it all wrong, both India and Pakistan had a women prime minister, the most powerful government job (though not on paper). In case of India she ruled for 10 out of 50+ years (at her peak she was the most powerful and daring indian leader). The current opposition leader in the Indian parliment is a women and she is a Italian born. Out of 27 states (to my knowledge) atleast 2 states have women chief minister (~ governer in US), one of them is in total (I stress) control. As a matter of fact I voted for her as most did ... I am not ashame. It is far more common " to have women in positions of management & authority" than you can dream.

[J. Yan]

Originally posted by Anupam Sinha:

What made you think so that I am in anyway pleasing you. What makes you think so that most chinese will think so.
Labour is still cheap in China. If India did provided the raw material (which I am doubtful of) then why can't India itself develop the product. Indian products are generally costlier than there Chinese counterparts. Had Indian labour been cheap then it would had been really difficult for China to compare with Indian products pricewise atleast and I am not kidding.
[ July 20, 2003: Message edited by: Anupam Sinha ]

I think I was just wasting my time:
1.) You seem not to understand what "even" means;
2.) You don't know what you were talking about and didn't do any homework before you posted something here. All the facts I listed can be easily got from Internet, not from some secret resources, and you don't need to pay anything to get them either.
3.) You have funny logic. You can't figure out "cheapest labor + cheapest raw materials != cheap products with acceptable quality".
4.) Oh, you were not kidding, but seriously entertaining here
Alright. I am 120% pro-democracy and personally have nothing to against India or Indians, so please stop insulting us by comparing Indians with Chinese.
Peace

[Ashok Talluri]

[deleted by moderator] I have a lot of chinese friends as collegues and we all mix very freely. [deleted by moderator] We just cannot compare people in two countries. We can only compare two people. [deleted by moderator]
[ July 20, 2003: Message edited by: Ashok Talluri ]
[edited by moderator to remove multiple gratuitous personal attacks --JM]
[ July 20, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Jason Menard]

This thread is very close to being closed. I humbly suggest all particpants in this thread re-read the About "Meaningless Drivel" and Fallacies documents (also prominently linked at the top of the Meaningless Drivel forum's main page) before making another post.
[ July 20, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Anupam Sinha]

Hi J. Yan
I didn't notice that you are a chinese. I didn't mean to please you or hurt you in any manner whatsoever, I am sorry if did hurt you in any manner.
Secondly, I am not doubting your facts.
I agree Cheapest raw material + cheapest labour |= Cheap products with acceptable quality.
Quality is a relative term, so the quality that an inferior chinese good may provide at a price might not just be a match for its Indian counterparts.
I like the Chinese products being sold here in India because they actually now force people who were selling at much higher margins earlier to bring down their prices.
Firstly I wasn't comparing Indians and Chinese it was just an example. Even if I was comparing them then why do you think that was an insult to you.
And I thought that I was talking with someone seriously reading my post, now I realise that you were just being entertained.
I don't understand what prompted you to take such a negative view of my first post. Whats wrong with that. I was talking about companies like Wipro, Infosys, Khaitan etc. They are thinking or have opened shops in China. Secondly there is also a lot of Chinese goods that is now coming to India. Now I don't understand what makes you feel insulted.

[JiaPei Jen]

It is my plea. Would you not use the word "cheap" to talk about labor? To me (I am an American living in USA), nobody is "cheap". I usually say "lower wage" labor or "less paid" worker.

[Amitabh Sharma]

Originally posted by J. Yan:

Hi,
First, please do me a favor. Please don't compare yourself with Chinese. I always feel insulted when the word "Chinese" came out from Indian's mouth, even when you try to please us. I think most Chinese will feel the same way.
[ July 19, 2003: Message edited by: J. Yan ]

Really?? So you feel insulted when Chinese are compared with Indians? I fail to understand why. I feel like the camel would have felt in the story below.

An elephant asks a camel: " why are your breasts on your back ?"
" Well!" says the camel. "I think that's a strange question from somebody who's dick is on his face."

[J. Yan]

Originally posted by Anupam Sinha:

If India did provided the raw material (which I am doubtful of) then why can't India itself develop the product.
Secondly, I am not doubting your facts.

Very typical ...
If I was not clear, I restate it here: please don't compare Indians with Chinese. It's not for you. It's for all the Indians who have this bad habit. I personally won't take Indians as Chinese's comparison. Let's just keep our current trade pattern and keep it quietly, so that you can keep enjoying cheap inferior Chinese electronic products, and we keep enjoying fresh Indian Mango (I haven't tried them yet and hope it's not curry-smelled ). We can be good neighbors and even good friends. Do whatever you want and say whatever you want as long as don't compare Indians with Chinese...
Cheers!

[Pakka Desi]

Originally posted by J. Yan:

Do whatever you want and say whatever you want as long as don't compare Indians with Chinese...
Cheers!

Your are right. There is no comparison between India and China. India is a democracy where people can speak their minds while China is nicely disguised dictatorship where people are free only as long as they do not speak whatever they want, do not assemble whenever they want, do not browse internet, do not publish whatever they want, do not read whatever they want...the list can go on.
No matter how much brag about your economy, military power, or whatever, your country is a dictatorship. Probably you'll not understand the importance/taste of democracy since all your life you've seen only dictatorship. There is a saying, "Bandar kya jane adrak ka swad.", which means, "How can a monkey know what does Ginger root tastes like?".
Or may be you do know the importance of demcracy since I guess you are in the US. May be that's why you are saying there is no comparison between India and China
I would choose death n times over in India than live once in China.
No hard feelings...