programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other Pie Elite all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
• Campbell Ritchie
• Jeanne Boyarsky
• Ron McLeod
• Paul Clapham
• Liutauras Vilda
Sheriffs:
• paul wheaton
• Rob Spoor
• Devaka Cooray
Saloon Keepers:
• Stephan van Hulst
• Tim Holloway
• Carey Brown
• Frits Walraven
• Tim Moores
Bartenders:
• Mikalai Zaikin

# [political] Clear me on WMD arithmetics

Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
It is often said that you cannot find a hidden WMD in a country of the size of California.
Being born in a rather big country, I often misread it as "you cannot find a hidden WMD in a tiny country" but it's only me, Ok.
Let's calculate. According to CIA data, the area of Iraq is:
437,072 sq km
(http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.html)
The size of US occupation Army is 160,000
("But he also made clear that the current troop strength of 160,000 will be needed for the foreseeable future."
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/World/iraq03071
6_Abizaid.html)
Divison:
437,072 / 160,000 = 2.7 sq km
Question: how long does it take for an average American soldier to check a square of ~1.65 x 1.65 kilometer?
Answer: 3 months is not enough.
What am I missing?
P.S. When I am being franked, I get cranked!
[ July 18, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

Sheriff
Posts: 6450
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
160,000 troops are not being dedicated to the search for WMDs, so your equation would not be correct.

Ranch Hand
Posts: 199
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
From Mapraputa ---------
What I am missing?
---------------------------
The third dimension. The area mentioned is two dimensional only.

Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
Jason: 160,000 troops are not being dedicated to the search for WMDs
I understand that they have lots of other stuff to look for, but WMD were the main reason to invade Iraq, as far as I remember. Now you are saying that the troops are not being dedicated to the search for WMDs? What *are* they being dedicated to then?

Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Jason: 160,000 troops are not being dedicated to the search for WMDs
I understand that they have lots of other stuff to look for, but WMD were the main reason to invade Iraq, as far as I remember. Now you are saying that the troops are not being dedicated to the search for WMDs? What *are* they being dedicated to then?

Security and support mostly. I do remember reading that there is/was one small detachment dedicated to the search for WMDs though.

Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
prop�a�gan�da n. 1.
The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those people advocating such a doctrine or cause.

mister krabs
Posts: 13974
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
There are lots of places that we haven't searched yet. Mosques, for example. But those American troops are being shot at in case you missed the news over the last month or so, so it is highly unlikely that we are going to disperse our troops across the country of Iraq. The major mission right now is to restore order.

Ranch Hand
Posts: 1327
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
the WMD were destroyed during the air campagin

High Plains Drifter
Posts: 7289
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Mumbai cha bhau:
From Mapraputa ---------
What I am missing?
---------------------------
The third dimension. The area mentioned is two dimensional only.

Mathematicians...

Bhau Mhatre
Ranch Hand
Posts: 199
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:

Mathematicians...

By third dimension I meant the underground labs, hidden sites or sites under disguise of civilian industrial complexes, etc.
Fourth dimension can be time- now it's there, now it's not (mobile labs)
Or was it expected that all the 160000 soldiers stand 3.3Kms away from each other and start searching on the surface ?

Ranch Hand
Posts: 173
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
and there might also be a fifth dimenstion. and where is that? in the realm of imagination

Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
Tom: But those American troops are being shot at in case you missed the news over the last month or so
I did not. Here is Iraq Coalition Casuality Count, in case anybody cares:
http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

Ranch Hand
Posts: 162
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
I see no point on argueing about this (WMD), Already the govt agencies (US & UK) are busy pointing fingers on each other .... are we trying to follow their foot steps

Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
This reminds me an anecdote about Russian military unit with nuclear weapons:
- @#^! Why did you put your @#\$#% boot on the control panel?
- Sorry Sir!
- "Sorry"??? And where is Belgium now? Where is Belgium??? Kitchen work for three days for you!

Ranch Hand
Posts: 5399
1
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
- @#^! Why did you put your @#\$#% boot on the control panel?
- Sorry Sir!
- "Sorry"??? And where is Belgium now? Where is Belgium??? Kitchen work for three days for you!

.. [could not stop myself.. ]

boyet silverio
Ranch Hand
Posts: 173
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
I see no point on argueing about this (WMD), Already the govt agencies (US & UK) are busy pointing fingers on each other...
also, it is nostalgic.

Ranch Hand
Posts: 479
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
This reminds me an anecdote about Russian military unit with nuclear weapons:
- @#^! Why did you put your @#\$#% boot on the control panel?
- Sorry Sir!
- "Sorry"??? And where is Belgium now? Where is Belgium??? Kitchen work for three days for you!

Hey Why Belgium

Younes Essouabni
Ranch Hand
Posts: 479
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
The main problem are the evidences.
Before war , we had pictures of those mobile labs, we had evidence under our nose all day at tv.
But now after war, the only thing we have is ... nothing.
Apart a president and a prime Minister embarrassed by all those lies.
"... If we were wrong we did right, and if we were right we did right..."
How pathetic.

Ranch Hand
Posts: 583
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
the WMD were destroyed during the air campagin

- well, if thats true, why wasnt a *mass destruction*?
As I understand, if you do not dispose the WMD properly, it starts destroying.. am I right??
lupo

Younes Essouabni
Ranch Hand
Posts: 479
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
"Weapons of Mass Deception
How propaganda sold the war on Iraq..."

Younes Essouabni
Ranch Hand
Posts: 479
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

Answer: 3 months is not enough.
What am I missing?

Time , they need time so that we will forget why they were send to Iraq.
Second: I'm not sure that we need to check the entire country. I'm not an expert, but such weapons must need some space and can't be stocked anywhere.
Anybody noticed that those brave soldiers are collecting weapons from Iraqi civilians while they are not doing it in their own country?

Ranch Hand
Posts: 188
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Younes Essouabni:

Anybody noticed that those brave soldiers are collecting weapons from Iraqi civilians while they are not doing it in their own country?

Not sure how this is relevent, but the last time I checked, there weren't a lot of American citizens shooting at our own Army.
It's also real easy to talk about bravery when you aren't getting shot at.....

Younes Essouabni
Ranch Hand
Posts: 479
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Eric Fletcher:

Not sure how this is relevent, but the last time I checked, there weren't a lot of American citizens shooting at our own Army.
It's also real easy to talk about bravery when you aren't getting shot at.....

Hmmmmm, not sure but when I see American statistics, I get really affraid. Anybody else has seen "Bowling For Columbine"?
Hey, I've just said brave soldiers. What's wrong with it? ... maybe their location

Ranch Hand
Posts: 167
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
I think all the things sound-minded and progressive people predicted are coming true. What we see is an administration now falling all over itself and hoping these wmd issues will just go away. We hear them now talking of "WMD programs" a deliberate shift away from the real issue--no wmds will be found and none will ever be found. We'll just have to see and let things unravel. The sad thing is young americam soldiers have their lives being wasted on account of this

Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
Hey Why Belgium
Because regardless of what you think about bloody communists, they did not hate ALL Western countries, actually, their attitude to most of European countries was quite positive, and nobody in their sane mind would consider attacking such a peaceful country as Belgium a good thing!

Ranch Hand
Posts: 115
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Younes Essouabni:

Hmmmmm, not sure but when I see American statistics, I get really affraid. Anybody else has seen "Bowling For Columbine"?

Mike Moores an idiot.... I use to like him. I don't anymore... he plays to people's emotions to make money. Oh... he's also a liar...
[ July 22, 2003: Message edited by: Eleison Zeitgeist ]

Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
July 22, 2003
AR RAMADI, Iraq – One 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment soldier was killed and one was wounded when their vehicle convoy was hit with a rocket-propelled grenade and small arms fire in an ambush at approximately 9 a.m. July 22 on the road between Balad and Ar Ramadi.

Younes Essouabni
Ranch Hand
Posts: 479
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Eleison Zeitgeist:

Mike Moores an idiot.... I use to like him. I don't anymore... he plays to people's emotions to make money. Oh... he's also a liar...
[ July 22, 2003: Message edited by: Eleison Zeitgeist ]

So he is a liar, whatever. But it is a fact, that there is more murder in the united states than in any other countries. So why, don't you take the weapons from the civilians? I heard something about freedom, but it seems like this freedom is not good for Iraquis.

Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Eleison Zeitgeist:

Bowling uses deliberate deception as its primary tool of persuasion and effect.

No, the point is that Bowling is deliberately, seriously, and consistently deceptive. A viewer cannot count upon any aspect of it, even when the viewer believes he is seeing video of an event occurring or a person speaking.

Bowling for Columbine is dishonest. It is fraudulent.

It's reassuringly predictable how tripe such as this plays so well in certain places.

Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
It's reassuringly predictable how tripe such as this plays so well in certain places.
You aren't talking about GWB explaining an urgent need to invade Iraq to American people, by any chance?

Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Younes Essouabni:
But it is a fact, that there is more murder in the united states than in any other countries.

No, that is quite far from a fact. See Table 1 on page 10 of this document (pdf).
Between 1998-2000, the average number of homicides per 100,000 population in the US was 5.87. This does not even remotely approach the figures of places like Russia (20.52) or South Africa (54.25), to name but a couple.

Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
It's reassuringly predictable how tripe such as this plays so well in certain places.
You aren't talking about GWB explaining an urgent need to invade Iraq to American people, by any chance?

No, some things are self-evident and don't require much convincing.

Mapraputa Is
Leverager of our synergies
Posts: 10065
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
No, some things are self-evident and don't require much convincing.
Like the fact that the SUN is actualy going around the globe, not the other way around.

Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
Let's not let it escape notice that today Saddam's sons Uday and Qusay have been killed by US forces.

Eleison Zeitgeist
Ranch Hand
Posts: 115
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
No, some things are self-evident and don't require much convincing.
Like the fact that the SUN is actualy going around the globe, not the other way around.

"self-evident" is not really a term we should be using... Personally, since it is not possible to know for sure of a fact, 100%... I think it's better to say the following: "With all the given information, it is likely that...."
In life, there are no real facts that are 100%. For instance, no one really knows 100% that "that the SUN is actualy going around the globe, not the other way around" Especially for us, non-cosmonuts... How do we know which way the sun moves??? Have we seen it move relative to the earth.. etc, we are told what to believe... err.. we are given a choice of what to believe.. We have used logic and reason to _infer_ that the earth moves arround the sun. Can we be sure that this is true, 100% -- no, not really.
Even if you were a cosmonut, could you be sure, 100%... no... You can say: "look I saw the earth move, etc.., you can't convince me otherwise!!!" however, how do you know that your eyes didn't deceive you - some great grand conspiracy, by the BUSH government to convince the world of how grand their technology was, etc...
WMD: "With all given information, it is likely that..." there were and is WMD....
while anything's possible, there are only some things that are reasonable...
p.s. huhm, looking over what I just wrote, I sound like some character in the matrix... whoa...:-)

slicker
Posts: 1108
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:
Uday and Qusay have been killed
Hmmm... we didn't just kill 'em we
MERCY-KILLED 'em, cause if the Iragis found 'em first they'da tortured 'em for days!!!
mer�cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m�rs)
n. pl. mer�cies
1. Compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power; clemency.
2. A disposition to be kind and forgiving: a heart full of mercy.
3. Something for which to be thankful; a blessing: It was a mercy that no one was hurt.
4. Alleviation of distress; relief: Killing Sadaam's sons was an act of mercy.
[ July 22, 2003: Message edited by: John Dunn ]

Younes Essouabni
Ranch Hand
Posts: 479
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

No, that is quite far from a fact. See Table 1 on page 10 of this document (pdf).
Between 1998-2000, the average number of homicides per 100,000 population in the US was 5.87. This does not even remotely approach the figures of places like Russia (20.52) or South Africa (54.25), to name but a couple.

Ok, but if we compare Washington DC to Pretoria, guess who is the winner? Page 4 of the document.
But no matter how many crimes are done. In the US people have the right to have weapons. Why not in Iraq?
[ July 23, 2003: Message edited by: Younes Essouabni ]

R K Singh
Ranch Hand
Posts: 5399
1
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Eleison Zeitgeist:
How do we know which way the sun moves??? Have we seen it move relative to the earth.. etc,

:roll:
I believe that you have Gun, should I shoot you on my belief.
AW nothing is 100% true.
And with all the information I have, it is likely that you have Gun.
May I shoot you ?? No, I dont want any one to interfere. I am powerful enough to buy/[not to care about] police or law & order.
May I shoot you ?

Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
:roll: I believe that you have Gun, should I shoot you on my belief.

That isn't the right scenario. I know that you shot 35 people a year ago. It is highly likely that you are still armed. If you refuse to allow me to search you for a weapon can I shoot you to protect myself?

Thomas Paul
mister krabs
Posts: 13974
• Number of slices to send:
Optional 'thank-you' note:

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
AW history is witness that war is fought for either money or land or woman.

So which was it that US fought for in Serbia?