no more free java

[Erwin Bredford]

hi, i am a java developer .
we developers have been making lots of money from free java from sun.right
but the company is not doing so well.
well don't you think it's time to pay just a little for java.
there are many benefits like better code and products .
let me juxtapose it with microsoft's .net studio which sells for $800.
and developers are buying and the "evil empire " is smiling to the bank.
i wonder how sun makes it' money from java anyway.i think it is time for them to start charging for it.
IBM ,bea make more money than they do .
i welcome any response good or bad to this topic.

[Michael Morris]

First off, MS also gives away the .NET SDK but charges for VS .NET which is worth the price. Sun does not produce an IDE comparable to VS, but I am sure that many Java developers would be willing to pay if they did. Forte, the last time I checked, was not that good. Sun has found itself in this position with Java because they have been unwilling to face the inevitible fact that the business that has kept them going, high powered servers SOLARIS, is no longer viable. Sun promised at Java ONE a new Java branding campaign, but I'll be damned if I've seen anything. Not even a single commercial. Sun still has an oppurtunity to make money from Java, but it damn sure won't be by charging developers, the true evangalists, for the platform. They should produce an IDE like VS .NET that is Enterprise capable. They need to create an application server like Websphere or Weblogic. They need to finally give in and let Java go to an independant standards committee. Java still holds the cards on the server side, but after doing my first .NET project, I'm not so sure that they can just assume that the market will always be there. Java certainly needs to break MS' stranglehold on the client side.

[Anupam Sinha]

I guess that Java hadn't been as successful as it is now if it had been close to what Microsoft's IDE for .net is, in terms of price. Part of the success of Java also lies in the fact that its free.
There are other revenue streams which Sun should identify and I guess Sun's is now coming up with different products that cater to different people related with java.

[basha khan]

Originally posted by Michael Morris:
Java certainly needs to break MS' stranglehold on the client side.

Forte was unsuccessfull becoz it's made in java itself.so it's very slow.Swing is good to see but its very slow.it's 'dangerous' to use Swing to develop GUI for below p3 machines.If forte would have been written in C++ ,i think it will succeed.an IDE is not a great deal to develop(eg:JCreator pro.it's a wonderfull IDE).JCreator pro was compleately written in C++.
my questien is 'why sun dont made a native compiler?.'
i thinks platform independence comes in life only in applets.we dont need platform independence for the 99% of the rest.most programs are written for perticular OS only.so my opinion is inorder to keep the existing platform independent compilers,sun should make java compilers for distinct operating systems also which can make direct native binary from code .then IDE 's become faster.programs becomes faster.companies no more need MS skilled people for making client side systems.on my opinion,sun should make native compilers before MS get a hold/advantage in server side.java having great strength in its structure.if sun can make an effective native compiler,C++ projects may turn to java projects.coz developing in java take less time than developing in C++ .by this strengh java can survive.but 'sun' should see the light.
basha

[Erwin Bredford]

Michael Morris
Sun promised at Java ONE a new Java branding campaign, but I'll be damned if I've seen anything. Not even a single commercial. Sun still has an oppurtunity to make money from Java, but it damn sure won't be by charging developers, the true evangalists, for the platform.

well i think sun got christian aguliera or what it britney to sign an endorsement deal .i think it was christian aguliera.
well,java 's performance has improved over the years.espial claims java's performance is no longer an issue www.espial.com and with the promises of jdk1.5 .it might be better don;t you think so

[Michael Morris]

my questien is 'why sun dont made a native compiler?.'

I'm not real sure what you're asking there. javac is native. The JIT does optimize and create faster native code. .NET performance is similar to Java in that there is a first time delay when the JIT compiles the assembly. Java performance has come a long way in the last couple of years, but any architechture that has as much metadata as Java (and .NET) is never going to be as fast as a C or C++ native program. I agree with you on Forte, I remember the first time I ever tried it, I thought it was locked up, but after ten minutes or so it finally started working but event response was still painfully slow. Two months ago, I would have said that I would never use .NET, but economic reality has sunk in. I simply must be able to use both platforms if I want to stay out of bankruptcy. For Java developers, C# is very simple to learn, and most of us were already C++ programmers. I also have to admit that using VS .NET Enterprise Architect is really nice, and that's coming from someone who used to think the only way to code was the VI editor! I must also admit, that I liked the automatic boxing of primitives that C# uses, of course Java 1.5 is going to have that also. My two main beefs with C# is the lack of checked exceptions and instance inner classes and the indexing concept takes a little getting used to. Anyway, I still prefer Java and hope that all the major players find a way to keep it alive and thriving.

[Maulin Vasavada]

Hi all,
I agree with the fact that Sun has to come up with an IDE and the application server like Webshpere and all.
I tried SUN ONE studio and I decided not to use it or recommend as it was slow. Though I am not a great user of any IDE. I'm old "vi" guy you can say but I tried Eclipse, JBuilder , Netbeans (origins of SUN ONE Studio) to evaluate what I would use if I were to develop things and comparatively I excluded Java Swing base IDEs...
Also, I agree that if Sun makes platform specific IDEs then whats the harm as far as we are able to work with Java from within it?
Regards
Maulin

[basha khan]

I'm not real sure what you're asking there. javac is native.
javac is native.but it produces platform independent class files.interpretation of these class files using java interpretor(which is also native) is slow.JIT is also not satisfying.
slowness is the big problom java facing in client side.why Forte is slow?.coz it's made in java.what if Forte made in C++?.what is the difference between java and C++?.mainly it's speed.
what i need is a java native compiler.i mean a compiler can produce fast .exe(for windows) files that is fast as C++ made .exe.the current model(shipping a JRE with each application and slow performance of swing) never make java an option to build client side systems.
why VB made programs fast?.it's architecture contains less metadata?.i think a solution with a runtime.dll(as VB) is also acceptable for developers than current model.
i think someone is caring this problom.ibm comes with a solution for Swing as SWT.open source MINGW/GCJ compiler makes .exe files.
but where is sun in this issue?.
-------
basha

[Marcus Green]

I run NetBeans on a 900Mhz machine with 512Mb ram and the only slow bit is the start up. What kind of machines is it being run on that it feels slow with?

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Marcus Green:
I run NetBeans on a 900Mhz machine with 512Mb ram and the only slow bit is the start up. What kind of machines is it being run on that it feels slow with?

Netbeans is not Forte. Forte uses Netbeans as a Base Framework for it's IDE. So there is quite a bit of difference between the iteration of Netbeans versions and Forte, or rather Sun One Studio versions.
I think a lot of people are forgetting the fact that Sun has taken it upon themselves to maintain the language, but has made the Technology such that 3rd party vendors support the developers. So I don't think Sun necessarily needs to create an IDE comperable to VS.NET. I think that IBM, Oracle, etc need to create an IDE that allows developers to better work with their JAVA related products.
The only reason MS makes VS.NET is because MS also makes the OS that all that technology runs on. If VS.NET was multiplatform, I don't think MS would continue the type of development on VS.NET that currently do. But that will never happen.

[basha khan]

Originally posted by Marcus Green:
I run NetBeans on a 900Mhz machine with 512Mb ram and the only slow bit is the start up. What kind of machines is it being run on that it feels slow with?

just try to run Forte.i am not satisfied with the speed of any swing based program.we need perfect solutions.can sun bring it for us?.i dont blame sun,it's a marvellous company that gave us a superb language and technologies,that excel lot of ways.but some areas(vital areas) sun is lacking spirit.remember MS is still young in the hands of bill gates.
-----
basha

[Gregg Bolinger]

What will breaking into Client Side Apps do for Sun? Right now, we are overrun with Client Side Apps. There are millions of programs that all do the same thing on the Desktops of MAC, Windows, and Linux.
I think Sun is smart for not harping and pushing itself and dedicating a lot of time to the Desktop. There really is no market there. Even MS isn't doing well on the Desktop. Why do you think it's prices on liscensing keep changing and going up? It's because no one is buying Desktop software anymore. Why should Sun try and win a market that is just failing already?
I think Sun is doing just what it needs to be doing. I don't think it's a matter of winning a market or a domain. I think it's about finding your share in that market or domain.

[Mark Spritzler]

I think Sun is smart for not harping and pushing itself and dedicating a lot of time to the Desktop. There really is no market there. Even MS isn't doing well on the Desktop. Why do you think it's prices on liscensing keep changing and going up? It's because no one is buying Desktop software anymore. Why should Sun try and win a market that is just failing already?

I beg to difer. The Desktop is the only development we do here at my work. So therefore, I can't ever use Java at my work.
Business development for internal applications need a very rich GUI. HTML and other web based development does not provide this richness.
So while the Web development might get all the press, there is a HUGE MARKET for internal business applications that goes unnoticed.
Mark

[basha khan]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:

I think Sun is smart for not harping and pushing itself and dedicating a lot of time to the Desktop. There really is no market there.

i dont think sun is smart in this issue.for sun,i think it's easy to make native compilers for distinct OS's.nowadays every program deals with network.that's OK.but every program requires a client app also.weather it's network/desktop system,client side app is a must.if sun made compilers as i have said,a company dont need programmers who knows C++/VB for making client app only.so sun can strenghthen the hold.i think it's a good strategy fot sun.
----
basha

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by basha khan:

i dont think sun is smart in this issue.for sun,i think it's easy to make native compilers for distinct OS's.nowadays every program deals with network.that's OK.but every program requires a client app also.weather it's network/desktop system,client side app is a must.if sun made compilers as i have said,a company dont need programmers who knows C++/VB for making client app only.so sun can strenghthen the hold.i think it's a good strategy fot sun.
----
basha

Why should sun make compilers that compile to native OS binary? I don't see any reason. If you want to create native apps, there are already plenty of languages and compilers for that. Java really isn't that better of a language to warrent that anyway. Even if Java did have a "native compiler" I wouldn't use it for most situations. I would probably stick to C++. But I guess that is just me.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Mark Spritzler:
I beg to difer. The Desktop is the only development we do here at my work. So therefore, I can't ever use Java at my work.

I can't remember the last time I wrote a client side app. No one wants client side apps anymore. They want apps that run on the corporate intranet.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I can't remember the last time I wrote a client side app. No one wants client side apps anymore. They want apps that run on the corporate intranet.

And in line with this, which I totally agree with BTW, I just finished converting a Java SWING Desktop App at work to an ASP.NET page because users wanted it from anywhere they have the intranet.

[HS Thomas]

A few years ago I helped on a project converting from ASP to JSP.

(Not quite the same thing as Swing to ASP though).
regards

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
A few years ago I helped on a project converting from ASP to JSP.

(Not quite the same thing as Swing to ASP though).
regards

Still a web app. And not a Desktop App. Which fits right in with my views.

[basha khan]

i think sun should come up with a native compiler to compete with all existing compilers/languages like VB/C++.i am quite sure that if sun can make a real successfull compiler,people opposing now will also use that compiler(my opinion).it's the best way to hold/strengthen sun's existing market and popularity.i am sure that all other languages may fade by it's apperance(at least there is a chance).becoz if java can be 'one' solution for all probloms(cliet/server),java will become be a one-stop solution.then only foolish programmers will spent more time to strenghthen C++/VB skills.it's defenitely beneficiary for sun.

----
basha
[ August 25, 2003: Message edited by: basha khan ]

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by basha khan:
i think sun should come up with a native compilers to compete with all existing compilers/languages like VB/C++.i am quite sure that if sun can make a real successfull compiler,people opposing now will also use that compiler(my opinion).it's the best way to hold/strenthen sun's existing market and popularity.i am sure that all other languages may fade by it's apperance(at least there is a chance).becoz if java can be 'one' solution for all probloms(cliet/server),java will become be a one-stop solution.then only foolish programmers will spent more time to strenghthen C++/VB skills.it's defenitely beneficiary for sun.
----
basha

The thing about all this is you have to keep in mind the Write Once, Run Anyway nature of java and the Java Byte Code. Granted, compiling for a specific platform, if the compiler is good enough, is not a complicated task. But that is not the point. And it is not part of Sun's plan I don't think. Look at .NET. Even it went to byte code (though not called byte code). Maybe for fairly different reasons (MS wanted you to be able to run different languages on one VM) but still, it went in a JAVA direction.
With that being said, you are aware that there are programs you can purchase that convert Java Byte Code into native binary for a platform aren't you? So then Sun would be competing with them too?
I still stand behind one of my first statements. I don't think it's a matter of winning a market or a domain. I think it's about finding your share in that market or domain. And there isn't a good enough share left of the saturated Desktop market for JAVA to be successfull at any rate.
I've probably said the same thing over and over in this thread, so I will probably not be commenting on Java needing/not needing a native compiler anymore.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Mark Spritzler:

I beg to difer. The Desktop is the only development we do here at my work. So therefore, I can't ever use Java at my work.

And why can't you use JAVA? Or better yet, do you need to use JAVA? Are you running multiple platforms where you work? Do you need "Write once, run anywhere"? Or is everyone running Windows.
Another point to remember (maybe THIS will be my last point), if you aren't developing for multiple platforms, I don't believe JAVA is the way to go. Not because JAVA is not capable, but because there is no point. Plus, there are levels of an OS JAVA does not have the ability to gain access to. Java is very high level. It was designed this way. The lower level you give JAVA access to, the more you get into specific OS libraries and then it's gets cumbersome and sloppy and difficult to maintain. JAVA would always be several iterations behind any MS Development product when it comes to Windows Development because MS wouldn't release the API's needed for JAVA to interface with until after MS released their own product. If they were willing to release it at all.

[basha khan]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:

The thing about all this is you have to keep in mind the Write Once, Run Anyway nature of java and the Java Byte Code. Granted, compiling for a specific platform, if the compiler is good enough, is not a complicated task. But that is not the point. And it is not part of Sun's plan I don't think. Look at .NET. Even it went to byte code (though not called byte code). Maybe for fairly different reasons (MS wanted you to be able to run different languages on one VM) but still, it went in a JAVA direction.
With that being said, you are aware that there are programs you can purchase that convert Java Byte Code into native binary for a platform aren't you? So then Sun would be competing with them too?
I still stand behind one of my first statements. I don't think it's a matter of winning a market or a domain. I think it's about finding your share in that market or domain. And there isn't a good enough share left of the saturated Desktop market for JAVA to be successfull at any rate.
I've probably said the same thing over and over in this thread, so I will probably not be commenting on Java needing/not needing a native compiler anymore.

platform independency never comes in life in client side.coz most(99%) of programs are written for specific OS's.platform independency comes only in serverside and applets(intranet servers dont need platform independency,coz most networks run in one perticular OS).so in client side,the overhead(slowness) we suffer from platform independency is a waste.so i am saying,for overcoming this client side inadequateness,sun should make native compilers.nothing wrong in it.it can only improve sun's status.
existing native compilers(excelsior jet and MINGW/GCJ) is not quiet good.we cant blame the manufacurers.coz they are working on sun's java.they cant make any difference to java class files and the structure.so if sun decide to make compilers it's defenitely will become a better product and it will be a best move from sun's side to compete strongly with others.i think it can be a result-giving move for sun microsystems.
----
basha

[Mark Spritzler]

Well, first every job listing I have seen and would apply for is for rich clients. There is still a huge market out there. We cannot use Java on the client side because you cannot find a report writer that can generate a report in less than a couple of minutes. In Foxpro, it takes seconds if not faster to generate these reports.
HTML is not strong or rich enough for these applications. And the corporate intranet is good for showing your 401K or health benefits. But not for a robust(Not the best word) application. rich client application is better.
Mark

[Mark Herschberg]

Michael, I must respectfull disagree with you.

Originally posted by Michael Morris:
Sun does not produce an IDE comparable to VS, but I am sure that many Java developers would be willing to pay if they did.

Given that there are already a number of established IDE companies, Sun would be facing an uphill battle to enter this market. I'm not saying it can't be done, but from a business perspective, it's not a natural market, especially when Sun's philosophy has never been to make money off of software.

Originally posted by Michael Morris:
Sun still has an oppurtunity to make money from Java, but it damn sure won't be by charging developers, the true evangalists, for the platform.

They do? How? I was involved with a company which tried to make money off a language. (It was an MIT spin-off created by the inventor of the NuBus--this is a guy who could get Bill Gates to return his phone calls.) After 5 years the company is still unsure how to turn a profit. It is very difficult to make money off of languages directly. And if they do it indirectly, they are in no better position than any other company.

Originally posted by Michael Morris:
They need to finally give in and let Java go to an independant standards committee.

They did, the JCP. Sun maintain's a permenant seat on the executive committee, but it's only one of 15. They also have a certain degree of bureaucratic control of the program. Maybe it's not as egalitarian as ANSI, but from a practical standpoint, it definately meets the needs of the community.
--Mark

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Mark Spritzler:
Well, first every job listing I have seen and would apply for is for rich clients. There is still a huge market out there. We cannot use Java on the client side because you cannot find a report writer that can generate a report in less than a couple of minutes. In Foxpro, it takes seconds if not faster to generate these reports.
HTML is not strong or rich enough for these applications. And the corporate intranet is good for showing your 401K or health benefits. But not for a robust(Not the best word) application. rich client application is better.
Mark

I guess my question then would be why do we need java for this? Aren't there already enough languages to support what you need to do? As Mark H. said in his post, it is hard to turn a profit off a language. So it wouldn't make sense for Sun to try and compete there.

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by basha khan:


platform independency never comes in life in client side.coz most(99%) of programs are written for specific OS's.platform independency comes only in serverside and applets(intranet servers dont need platform independency,coz most networks run in one perticular OS).so in client side,the overhead(slowness) we suffer from platform independency is a waste.so i am saying,for overcoming this client side inadequateness,sun should make native compilers.nothing wrong in it.it can only improve sun's status.
existing native compilers(excelsior jet and MINGW/GCJ) is not quiet good.we cant blame the manufacurers.coz they are working on sun's java.they cant make any difference to java class files and the structure.so if sun decide to make compilers it's defenitely will become a better product and it will be a best move from sun's side to compete strongly with others.i think it can be a result-giving move for sun microsystems.
----
basha

I agree that probably most client apps are written with specific OS's in mind. I guess I just don't see a need for JAVA to be competing in this market by trying to maintain a compiler. I just believe it is beyond the scope, or maybe even below the scope of what Sun wants to accomplish with Java.

[Michael Morris]

Given that there are already a number of established IDE companies, Sun would be facing an uphill battle to enter this market. I'm not saying it can't be done, but from a business perspective, it's not a natural market, especially when Sun's philosophy has never been to make money off of software.

Sun's philosophy is their biggest problem. Sparcs and Solaris are no longer the cash cows they once were. Sun would have an uphill battle creating a competitve IDE but who better to do it than the inventors? Really, what options does Sun have right now? Become just another vendor of Linux on Intel servers?

They do? How? I was involved with a company which tried to make money off a language. (It was an MIT spin-off created by the inventor of the NuBus--this is a guy who could get Bill Gates to return his phone calls.) After 5 years the company is still unsure how to turn a profit. It is very difficult to make money off of languages directly. And if they do it indirectly, they are in no better position than any other company.

I was not thinking in the lines of licensing Java, but using their status as inventor to create Java developer tools, but to be serious about it. As many have already mentioned in this thread, it seems every tool, application server or whatever involving Java that Sun produces seems to be half-heartedly done. You're probably right, it may be too late for Sun to make money from Java, but God help them if they can't figure out something.

They did, the JCP. Sun maintain's a permenant seat on the executive committee, but it's only one of 15. They also have a certain degree of bureaucratic control of the program. Maybe it's not as egalitarian as ANSI, but from a practical standpoint, it definately meets the needs of the community.

Many would argue that the JCP is Sun's cynical effort to maintain control over Java and that ultimately Sun makes all the final decisions about the direction that Java will take. I can sympathize with Sun to some extent not wanting to completely relinquish control because you run the risk of polluting it with features that would be detrimental in the long run but at some point I think there should be an ANSI Java.

[Mark Spritzler]

"I guess my question then would be why do we need java for this? Aren't there already enough languages to support what you need to do? As Mark H. said in his post, it is hard to turn a profit off a language. So it wouldn't make sense for Sun to try and compete there."
Gregg, I completely agree. In the Rich GUI arena, I would always chose VB, and in the server side development, I'd always chose Java.
It's just that I wish I could do good Rich GUI development in Java. I think Java is a much more elegant language, and I find much easier to understand, maintain, extensible and all the other BUZZ words.
Meeting time. Sorry bye.
Mark

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Mark Spritzler:
[QBIt's just that I wish I could do good Rich GUI development in Java. I think Java is a much more elegant language, and I find much easier to understand, maintain, extensible and all the other BUZZ words.
[/QB]

I agree to an extent with that statement. I love JAVA and it would be nice if it was the end all solution for any problem. I think though that you might be giving too much credit to VB and not paying enough homage to Visual Studio.
VS is the real power horse behind MS Development. The languages aren't anything special. JAVA really needs a fast powerful all-in-one IDE. Sun probably could make some money from something like that. I don't know how their $$ is with Sun One Studio. But then it comes down to, why pay $$ for something I can get for free? Who the hell buys Sun One Studio when you can use Netbeans for free? And Netbeans is usually 10 steps further along in development.
And then it comes back to something I had posted in a different thread entirely. I would love to make money developing JAVA Apps and I think everyone probably should. But I think, for the most part, when people think of JAVA (even developers) they think Open Source and free. Because there is just so much Free JAVA out there. But that is another story...

[basha khan]

Originally posted by Mark Spritzler:

It's just that I wish I could do good Rich GUI development in Java. I think Java is a much more elegant language, and I find much easier to understand, maintain, extensible and all the other BUZZ words.
Mark

i love to have an IDE like VS(for VB) produce java code.which can then turn to executable(for distinct OS) in a single click.then that executable run fast as C++/VB build executables.then java can challenge VB effectively.
if java can challenge VB,sun will have more trust from developers.this trust will reflect everywhere.more trust means more success.sun is having a good chance to make money too from this IDE.VS is a good example.

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
I agree that probably most client apps are written with specific OS's in mind. I guess I just don't see a need for JAVA to be competing in this market by trying to maintain a compiler. I just believe it is beyond the scope, or maybe even below the scope of what Sun wants to accomplish with Java.

what sun wants to accomplish with java?.what sun accomlished?.what are the challenges?.and who is making challenges?.what are the strenghts of competitor?.how to compete effectievely?.remember,only keeping buzzwords will not keep/hold success.you should work for it.
if i were the CEO of sun microsystems,i'll make java native compiler+IDE for sure.but unfortunately for every java developers,i am not.
--------
basha

[Gregg Bolinger]

then that executable run fast as C++/VB build executables.then java can challenge VB effectively.
I am not too sure about this. As far as the speed at which the application executes, I think the JIT compilers have proven to perform as well as native executables. In fact, a JIT does take byte code to binary for the specified platform. So in escense, this is happening.
But even if you made a JAVA executable, and it is a SWING app, I think the performance of SWING would remain the same.
I also think that with JDK1.5 we may be just talking in the air right now about problems that may not exist. I read that they are not only improving the VM's footprint size and startup time by 10 (I think) but that they are improving the performance of the Graphics2D API, which will ultimately improve SWING. I am not 100% sure, I will have to find where I read that.
but unfortunately for every java developers,i am not
Who is? But it's fun to talk about this stuff.

[basha khan]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
then that executable run fast as C++/VB build executables.then java can challenge VB effectively.
I am not too sure about this. As far as the speed at which the application executes, I think the JIT compilers have proven to perform as well as native executables. In fact, a JIT does take byte code to binary for the specified platform. So in escense, this is happening.
But even if you made a JAVA executable, and it is a SWING app, I think the performance of SWING would remain the same.

hi gregg,
if JIT compiler is so fast,why Forte is dangerousely slow?.if you think Swing remain it's slowness whatever anybody do,sun might find solutions to speed up the GUI(personally i dont expect much from jdk1.5,but i like SWT).what i am saying is we need fast solutions in client side.coz most companies now prefer VB to develop client app and java to develop serverside components.so companies need VB skill for client development.this is another strenghth of MS.why cant java for all?.sun should think on result oriented way rather than buzzword keeping.
i have told lot of benifits sun may get by making a native compiler+IDE.what benefits you see by keeping buzzwords?.how much money sun can make by keeping buzzwords?.do u have any plan?.if you have a plan,tell me.my questien is what more profits sun may get by keeping this model OR buzzwords?.how much money sun can make?. how much more trust sun can achieve?.how sun is going to compete with MS?(MS strogly compete with sun in sun's strenghts).
you seems opposing my views.so you are responsible to tell me what you are seeing as alternative.or at least you should tell me the drawbacks sun may face after making a compiler+IDE.do you fear MS may loose the market of VS?.coz i have told you the lot of facts/benefits(practical benefits anyone can understand)of my views.be sharp with the views.
i expect a sharp reply from gregg bolinger.
-----
basha

[Gregg Bolinger]

if JIT compiler is so fast,why Forte is dangerousely slow
Because I believe SWING is still somewhat slow. However, Netbeans 3.5 is surprisingly faster than its predisessor. In part due to jdk 1.4.x vs 1.3.x.
what benefits you see by keeping buzzwords?.how much money sun can make by keeping buzzwords
As was pointed out earlier in this thread, I am in agreement that Sun cannot make money from a language, no matter what they do with it.
how sun is going to compete with MS?
Sun is competing with MS. It they weren't, Sun would not exist. Granted not on the client side, but most diffinatly in the Server Side Market.
so you are responsible to tell me what you are seeing as alternative.or at least you should tell me the drawbacks sun may face after making a compiler+IDE
I see absolutly no drawback to Sun making an IDE that is worthy of a pricetag Sun may put on it. Lucky for me, I didn't have to buy VS.NET but if I had to I would. For .NET development, it is more than worth it's pricetag.
However, the drawback to Sun making a byte code to native compiler, they wouldn't make any money from it. I mean, you might buy it, but I would venture to guess that not enough people would to make it profitable. So why waste the time? Even MS got tired of making compilers for every language. So now they just compile to byte code and let .NET interpret that. Sound familiar? A compiler (which I have helped write by the way) is not an easy undertaking. Add multiple OS's and then add multiple Processors to that (INTEL, SPARC, AMD) and you have your hands full. Oh, and I guess Sun needs to keep up with the VM also.
Sun does want to make money. But if you focus on too many things at once, you stretch your resources so thin, your products start to suffer. So in my opinion, Sun needs to keep doing what they are good at. And that is JAVA just the way it is. Improve the language. Improve the VM. Creating a native compiler is not an improvement. It's just another tool.
And my last comment is the plain fact that I don't believe there is a Client Desktop Market worth fighting for right now. That is my opinion, but that is why I don't share your views and that is why I don't see a benefit to a byte code to native compiler.

[basha khan]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:

Sun does want to make money.But if you focus on too many things at once, you stretch your resources so thin, your products start to suffer. So in my opinion, Sun needs to keep doing what they are good at. And that is JAVA just the way it is. Improve the language. Improve the VM. Creating a native compiler is not an improvement. It's just another tool.

sun does want money.money means a lot.it's the strength of MS.MS can do anything without thinning it's resources.coz MS having lot's of money.money came from effective result-oriented marketing/strategy.money means freedom.freedom means competence in lot of ways.company needs competence to keep the trust level of it's end users(weather it's company/developer).even sun cant give the free things now giving if sun dont look at money.improve language.but you should look for alternatives to sustain in market.
i dont think sun will suffer much resource thinning on this issue.for market,you should study from MS.some strategies of MS failed,but they are always fighting hard with various forms of strategies.

And my last comment is the plain fact that I don't believe there is a Client Desktop Market worth fighting for right now. That is my opinion, but that is why I don't share your views and that is why I don't see a benefit to a byte code to native compiler.

what is the basic part of any system?.can you make a big network system without a client app?.i dont know for what reason you are depreciating client side.every system whatever you say client/network/distributed etc,needs a client app.so developing client app is a must.every program(99%) needs GUI for interacting with end user.so client development is very important.where VB successfull?.
i think sun should make an IDE which can strongly compete with VS before MS get a hold/advantage over serverside.otherwise trust will go other side.developers will think about changing to MS(i am not sure about gregg),coz MS become a good provider of one-stop solution.so to strengthen the market,sun should use this critical time to make more trust in developers by giving more tools for developers and achieve more belief.
if a program can be done with java or VB with equal flexibility,what you'll choose?.remember if you choose java,you are avoiding VB.
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basha