Learning OO concepts & Java 2 for mainframe developers - prefer free

[Janet Wilson]

I believe I have read through all of the postings which came up during a search for "object oriented" and I don't believe my question has been answered.
I am putting together a training plan recommendation for my boss (I work for a US state agency, therefore I need to watch the $$$ and would prefer solutions which are free) for teaching OO and Java to the entire applications team. About 70% of the developers are mainframe programmers with no knowledge of OO and the rest are client/server developers all with at least a VB background and varied knowledge of OO. My goal is to come up with a plan which will provide everyone with a good and sound foundation in OO (not just learning about "what is an object") and then incorporate learning Java 2 (eventually moving towards J2EE). I'm pretty convinced that between the "new to Java Programming Center" site and others, we can achieve the J2 knowledge for free. I'm not so sure about the OO knowledge. That's where I need your help!
I have perused Bruce Eckel's book and even he himself has said that he wrote this based on the reader's fundamental understanding of C, so this is probably not the route to take.
The Sun site has a free tutorial, "Learning the Java Language", which appears to just tackle a few of the concepts.
Is there anything else out there or a more elementary question - is this the right approach to take (or should we learn OO by way of learning J2)? I am ideally looking at free stuff first, but would entertain books, CBT's, etc. which are not costly (already know about "Developing Java Software" by Winder and Roberts and an Object Technology book by Taylor).
Help!!! Thanks! Janet

[Marilyn de Queiroz]

I'd think it would be kind of hard to learn OO without a language to learn it with. My approach would be to learn the basics of Java first and then incorporate the OO stuff. See the CattleDrive (not free) for an example of this type of approach.

Unfortunately, I can't direct you to a place that has a comprehensive course in Java/OO for free since I've never seen one. I suppose you've already seen the Java Tutorial on Sun's web site which is free.

[Marilyn de Queiroz]

By the way, Janet, welcome to JavaRanch! Unfortunately, 'W' is not an acceptable last name. Please adjust your display name to meet the JavaRanch Naming Policy.
You can change it here.

Thanks!

Marilyn

[Anthony Villanueva]

I think Sun offers courses on OO; in fact I think they have one specifically for migrating from procedural based programming.

[Bosun Bello]

You can check out the Java Tutorial at Sun's site. Another good book (not free though) is Beginning Java Objects by Jacquie Barker.

[Janet Wilson]

To Marilyn:
1. Call me paranoid re: the last name. I have changed it per the policy.
2. Thanks for the suggestion re: Sun, but I was there already and located 2 items pertaining to OO (Essentials of the Java Programming Language, Part 2 - Lesson 8: Object-Oriented Programming and "The Java Tutorial"- Trail: Learning the Java Language, OO Programming Concepts)
3. I'm still toying with the idea of trying to learn OO along the way - so that's not out of the question.
4. I haven't really explored the Cattle Drive because of the price issue. Maybe I will look into it a bit more if I strike out completely.
======
To Anthony-
Thanks for your suggestion. Aren't the Sun courses big bucks?
======
To Bosun-
Thanks for the book suggestion. There are so many books out there on the subject. I will look at this specific recommendation you provided.
======
To EVERYONE else-
To coin an Emeril (food network chef) phrase, Let's kick this up a notch.... Any good books on OO? What's your opinion about how to develop good OO foundation? Do it along the way? Or build it before delving into a language???
Thanks!!!

[Jamie Robertson]

books:
Java(tm) for S/390� and AS/400� COBOL Programmers
or
Java for the Cobol Programmer (Advances in Object Technology, 22) - check out its table of contents
both books seem to have good reviews

[Jamie Robertson]

another idea would be to seek out a local college professor that teaches the subject to come to the office and teach them OOP and Java. Someone there will be looking to make a few extra bucks on the side, and it will probably work out to be cheaper than sending them all to the college for a night course. Plus, they will be able to ask an experienced professional questions, which they will not be able to do when reading a book.

[Janet Wilson]

Jamie,
Thanks for both suggestions.
I started to look at the feedback for the Java for the COBOL programmer (the 70% are true mainframers using COBOL [unlike myself who hailed from the IBM midrange days many moons ago]) and this looks like a very worthwhile investment.
The more I get into researching this topic, the more I am feeling like some sort of instructor based training may help AFTER everyone has at least a rudimentary knowledge of OO and Java from the plethora of materials. Thanks for the creative solution because of our costs.
Janet

[Marilyn de Queiroz]

Have you been to the JavaRanch Bunkhouse? Books are reviewed by people from JavaRanch. Also we have a forum dedicated to book reviews (called "Book Reviews"), if someone wants to comment about a book that has already been officially reviewed.

You may find something useful there.

[Anthony Villanueva]

I've always liked Grady Booch's Object Oriented Analysis and Design.
Pro: IMO his discussion of the Object Model is very good. You can get a clear idea of the important OO concepts: abstraction, encapsulation, modularity, hierarchy, typing, concurrency and persistence.
Con: his examples are in C++, so it still needs to be translated to Java by someone for maximum benefit

[Marilyn de Queiroz]

similar topic

[Janet Wilson]

Marilyn-
Been to both areas and thanks for the link to the other thread. Have been using these lists and others (Sun and Bruce Eckel's listing) as a basis for my seeing how others feel about these books on the Amazon site before considering them for our "corporate library". Thanks!
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Anthony-
Thanks for the book suggestion. I know that Grady is like one of the grandfathers of the OO topic, but I was concerned it would be too abstract, but maybe I am wrong and will look further. The fact that his explanations are in C++ probably won't help. Again, thanks!
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Anyone else?

[David Weitzman]

OO is sort of tricky because there are plenty of people who can tell you how objects work, but many fewer who can actually use them effectively. I'm currently enrolled in a CS course where the grad student instructors seem to know the mechanics of OO and the general principles, but keep forcing me to write classes with interfaces that just beg to be refactored.
Epiphanies in object-oriented programming come from unusual places. Since I mentioned refactoring: Martin Fowler's Refactoring is not an OO introduction, but it really helps you recognize poor use of OO (and from that, you learn good use of OO). It takes a few of those, "Wow! That solution is so much better than the one I thought of," experiences before you get it down. Effective Java also has some great stuff on immutability and some other OO concepts in Java. I don't have many books though (the internet is great!), so that's about all I can say about that.
I got put on the path to OO simply by joining the JavaRanch community, reading recommendations by real people and following the great conversations.
You might also want to check with the people in the OO and Patterns forum.

[Janet Wilson]

David-
I appreciate the suggestions. I'm probably looking to stay as language neutral as possible for the OO explanations. As such, I have just purchased the following:
"Applying UML and Patterns: An Intro to OO Analysis and Design and the Unified Process" by Larman
"Object-Oriented Design Heuristics" by Riel
"Object Orientation: Concepts, Analysis & Design, Languages, Databases, GUI, Standards" by Khoshafian
Good luck with your class.
Janet

[Mapraputa Is]

Janet, as it was today said in another forum, different things are educational and effective for different people. I am not sure one-two books will work for everybody. Maybe your programmers should each make his/her own research: what makes sense for them.
Now, to contradict myself, let me tell "what worked for me"
I couldn't figure what OOP is until I read about "patterns". I learnt what Java offers as its OO arsenal, I read Grady Booch (it's a classic) as well as few other books - nothing made too much sense. I didn't see what value OOP adds to structural programming, besides altered vocabulary and funny syntax
It's only when I saw patterns I was convinced that OOP is worthwhile concept. Patters are defined as "reusable pieces of good design", they serve as a learning tool -- beginners can see what is good; as a way for moderately intelligent developers to use design decision produced by more advanced members of community and finally it's a language (or vocabulary) to communicate ideas. The last point is important: when I learnt Java API I was puzzled by its "weird" organization, after learning patterns it's clear. The same with articles in Java magazines, it's enough to see the word "factory" - and you already know what the code is doing.
"Design Patterns Explained" by Alan Shalloway and James Trott is the best book for beginners - highly recommended! Then after it, already mentioned "Refactoring" by Martin Fowler is a must reading. Martin Fowler himself defines the road in these terms: patterns are where we go and refactoring is how we get there.

[Dirk Schreckmann]

I've only just begun to read it, but the book Data Structures and Algorithms
with Object-Oriented Design Patterns in Java by Bruno R. Preiss looks promising. It's available for free at http://www.brpreiss.com/books/opus5/html/book.html

[Eric Pressler]

Janet,
I just made the transition from a mainframe (Assembler, not much COBOL) programmer to Java and I took a two step approach. First, per sound advice I was given, I learned C. I bought a book at amazon.com to do that. Learning C might be a prerequisite for Java since much of the syntax is based on C.
Then I purchased Bruce Eckel's THinking in Java because I too needed to learn both Java AND OO.
I think my approach worked well for me and for not too many dollars. I am not working on Java applications.
Hope that helps.

[Anthony Villanueva]

Learning C might be a prerequisite for Java since much of the syntax is based on C.

IMHO I think learning C (which is an excellent language BTW) is not a prerequisite for Java. C is procedural, not object-oriented, so it may be a step in a different direction. Might as well go for C++ in that case.

[Dirk Schreckmann]

I don't know C or C++ - except whatever is similar to Java. I don't think that it should be considered a prerequisite to learn C or C++ before learning Java. Java is a simple language.
Java was created to be similar to C and C++ in order to more easily lure C and C++ programmers to Java - not so that one should first learn one or both of the other languages.
I really think that there are many free and excellent resources for learning Java directly.
Good Luck.

[Eric Pressler]

I don't think there's any one magic formula. I found it helpful to know C before starting to learn Java. I purposely chose not to learn C++ just to learn OO as I expected to learn OO while learning Java, which I did. C took me a month. I doubt if C++ could have been learned quite that quickly.

[Janet Wilson]

First off, allow me to thank some people (I've been off a couple of days) for their input:
Mapraputa; Dirk; Eric; and Anthony
Second, I understand why people are mentioning "C" of any flavor...several books assume that you have an understanding of C and speak to that audience. Luckily, there are others out there which don't make that assumption (and for some of my folks, luckily there are Java books and tutorials which are meant for the COBOL programmer moving to Java). I don't believe I am going to go the route of learning C - we've got enough on our plates learning OO and Java.
And, to Mapraputa - thanks for the book suggestions. Yes, a design patterns book of some sort might be good to have. As for the educational choices and letting each individual put their own together, I think I have a different opinion on that one than you. My team members will be TOTALLY overwhelmed with the plethora of materials on the web. I think I'm a pretty good researcher (gotta' figure out a way to somehow use that Master's degree!) and I was practically hyperventilating with the enormous amount of choices! I know that some people will just not "get it" by "reading and doing" and need an instructor led path. As such, I am putting together something for them. Besides, this training plan can be adjusted for the individual - it's not etched in stone.
Thanks everyone!

[Eric Pressler]

Janet,
I can understand not wanting to learn C if there are other avenues. I received recommendations from others that learning C would be a good idea because it would introduce me to the syntax I needed to know and I took thier advice. I am not unhappy with the results. And, yes, the Java book I chose, Thinking in Java by Bruce Eckel, was one of those that assumed that the reader already had an understanding of the C programming syntax.
There are many ways to skin a cat and you'll get to use your best judgement on what works best for you.
BTW... I couldn't find any books that catered to an aging IBM assembler programmer learning C. *L*
Eric

[Janet Wilson]

Eric - thanks for your reply. Our mainframers are COBOL only. Luckily there are some books which cater to this market (COBOL to JAVA) and even IBM has some tutorials on their website.
Janet

[Jessica Lang]

Hi Janet,
I am a RPG/400 developer for more than 6 years, a proprietory language for AS/400 (IBM machine). In my case, I find it better for me to pick up the "Beginning Objects" book by Wrox first...knowing the OO concepts first with a little bit of Java flavour before I go further into the lang itself. Pls. refer to www.amazon.com for some reviews on this book. After that, the next one will be on a Java language book. One that I can recommend is the Core Java by the Sun series. While going thru' the Core books, the Sun website free information will be a great help too. I hope this information will be able to help you further....
I would like to hear your comment on this..

[Dirk Schreckmann]

tomato,
Welcome to JavaRanch!
We ain't got many rules 'round these parts, but we do got one. Please change your display name to comply with The JavaRanch Naming Policy.
Thanks Pardner! Hope to see you 'round the Ranch!

[Tom Purl]

Hi Janet. I see that you've received a rather overwhelming response to your question. You're probably getting a little sick of suggestions by now, but I thought I would add my two cents if that would help at all.
I've been teaching myself Java for the last 6 mos. and I've been trying to do it as cheaply as possible. Also, like your cobol programmers, I come from a procedural programming background (VB6). So maybe my opinion will help.
Here are some free "intro to Java" books:
Thinking In Java
How To Think Like A Computer Scientist
I haven't read the first book, but a lot of people have benefitted from it and it is free. The second book isn't nearly as complex as it may sound (in fact, it's pretty basic). It's designed to help high school seniors who want to get a decent foundation is "proper" Java programming. It's also designed like a textbook, so you can easily use it in a training environment. Finally, it's freely distributable so you might want to check it out.
As far as OO is concerned, I would first recommend learning the fundamental portions of Java. After that your programmers will understand a good number of basic OO concepts without even knowing it.
This next part is tricky. I believe that you really can't teach someone OO concepts in a class because it's such an abstract concept. The student must either:
A. Work very hard on his/her own time to learn how to use it correctly. This usually doesn't happen in a coporate environment because, from my experience, very few corporate IT people like to take their work home, especially to learn something new.
B. Learn from his/her co-worker/"systems designer" on a project.
Option B is really the best in a corporate environment because it gives your coders real-world experience in an area that, at first, seems very abstract.
So how do you do this? Does anyone in your organization have this type of experience? Bring them onto the first project and make them some sort of leader. Or, is there anyone in your group of programmers who's willing to do the research (for fun, believe it or not) and share it with his co-workers? This may sound like a pipe dream, but I know a few people who would love that type of opportunity. You may not get perfect results with this strategy, but it's a start and you do certainly seem to have a lot of constraints.
Hope I helped a little bit. Good luck!

[Janet Wilson]

Tomato (post from july 28 @ 11:53pm, in case you change your display name so that others can follow-if they want) - Thanks for your reply. My background is from the System/3x and AS/400 midrange world, too (although, I hate to admit it, just a few more than 6 years ). I'm not entirely sure what to think of the "Beginning Java Objects" book you recommended because you are absolutely right, it has been highly recommended by more than just a handful of people (58 responses!) with a 4-5 rating. That's pretty impressive. Then, if you come to the Bunkhouse area in the Ranch, you see their review which was not the most glowing (5 horseshoes out of 10).
I am glad to see that others are trying the same approach towards learning. What was a little confusing for me - how far along into the learning process are you? From what i am gathering, you completed the Wrox book, but you are starting the Core java book?
==================
Tom Purl - Not getting sick at all from the responses - so thanks for offering yours! It seems like everyone has offered me something different which in some respects makes my job both easier and harder. Easier because it is based on someone's tested experience / Harder because it means it's more stuff to look at!
Just so that you know, the "Thinking in Java" book, has been highly recommmended by several people, but as I believe i may have indicated in my original posting, it assumes you have a C background (even the author states that) which doesn't help us very much. As for your other recommendation - that is one i haven't seen and am currently reviewing now. Yes, the title is misleading and it may be a very good basic text. I was glad to see that the author has good credentials (asst professor at Wellesley College).
And, lastly (before everyone gets sick of me ) I agree with your comments about learning OO. It's something (from what I can tell) that you have to study and think about - not just have someone "instuct" you on the topic. I like your suggestion, but not sure if we can pull that off. I am playing around with the idea of trying to hook up with a local training company (luckily I live in a large city so the pickins' should be good) who can come to our facility 1 day every 2 weeks to help us with our learning experience.
============
Thanks to everyone for continuing to keep this thread active by offering your suggestions!

[Leslie Chaim]

Originally posted by Janet Wilson:

And, lastly (before everyone gets sick of me ) I agree with your comments about learning OO. It's something (from what I can tell) that you have to study and think about - not just have someone "instuct" you on the topic. I like your suggestion, but not sure if we can pull that off.

Well to put it lightly I don�t think you can without it. Think about your audience, they have a huge paradigm shift ahead of them by going COBOL to Java. And Java is Objects period.
Here is an example of a simple Beginners book written by my personal BEST author and see how objects are covered right at the very beginning in chapter 3. I would not recommend this book for you as this is for REAL beginners. Nevertheless, in this book objects are covered BEFORE the very simple programming constructs such as conditionals and looping.
I can conclude from my experience (which is from the self-thought school) that you absolutely MUST learn OO first. Otherwise, you will not gain the full promise from your COBOL2Java switch.
Let me conclude by recommending a book by David Taylor: Object Technology a Managers guide.. This book is less then 200 pages and give a good over view on OO without too much depth and the ever annoying patterns. And the book is not specific to Java.
Cheers,
Leslie.
PS. I have been watching this go on and on and I just wanted to energize this a bit more

[Bosun Bello]

I will also like to tadd that one book alone will not suffice. While the Beginning Java Obejcts book will help with grasping the OOP parts. you'll still need a good book to fill in the core java programming part. For that, I'll recommend Beginning Java 2 by Ivor Horton and Thinking in Java by Bruce Eckel.

[Janet Wilson]

Leslie - Thanks for "energizing" my post! I really liked what everyone said about your Beginners book (Java Programming from the Beginning) suggestion and have made Amazon richer . I've got some real beginners and since I am composing the training plan, I can pick and choose the chapters/sections to include or omit. I think I'll wait on the Taylor book to see if I have enough OO material from all of the books and websites I have amassed so far. Also, thanks for your comments re: how to learn OO and Java.
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Bosun - Thanks. You are absolutely right - 1 book won't do it all. That's why I am juggling several books trying to glean the best of the particular topics and trying to weave in the OO terminology and methodology, too.
======
Keep those "cards and letters coming"! Janet

[Jessica Lang]

Hi Janet, It is me here.....Tomato..... When I first started off to learn Java....which has been more than 6 months now (not continuously)......I had been doing lots of research on how to get started with the language....all on my own. The reason is I can't afford to attend the classroom classes and my company is not keen on sending the people for the classes yet. Therefore, I have tried variuous ways to learn the language. I feel the best method varies for different person. One will need to try out for a period, before he/she knows what suits him/her the best...
I find the "Beginning Objects' book is good for me...'cause it gives me a gentle introduction to OO with a little bit of Java flavour. I tried reading the "Thinking in Java" before...but couldn't make understand it...due to the vast difference between OO programming and Structured programmig.
I am still in the beginning of picking up the language...but I will need to do it rather fast...cause knowing only RPG these days is insufficient.
If you like, I would like to xchange more ideas with u in pursuing OO and Java. Drop me a message, okie?....

[Janet Wilson]

To Jessica-
Thanks for your reply and keeping this thread alive.
It may be best to keep the dialog in this forum so that everyone can take advantage of the knowledge. For example: you confirmed my comment about Bruce Eckel's book, "Thinking in Java", it's not meant to be used by folks with non-C or other OO programming language backgrounds.
You mentioned RPG, but wasn't sure if you had any COBOL, too. If so, one book I have been reading which IMHO is a very well structured and easy to read book is: "Java for the COBOL Programmer" (Doke and Hardgrave). This came to me by a recommendation early on in this thread (Jamie Robertson). When I searched amazon I found this link to a book which compares java to RPG. It may be a good book to use to accompany the other java books in your library, like this COBOL is for my group.
Good luck with your self-study!
Janet
[modified one really long line so it fit the page better - Jim]
[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[James Swan]

Jessica,
I kind of have the reverse background of what you did, started in Java, went to AS/400 RPG land, then switched back into OO/Java.
One thing that might be helpful for you is that the lastest version of RPG (RPG IV I think) can allow for some OO concepts such as encapsulation, modular creation and code reuse. IBM has this notion of an ILE (Integrated Language Environment), which allows module to be written in different languages (C,CL,RPG,COBOL etc) to be "bound" together into a program.
You might be able to sneak some of the new ideas/techniques you learn through your OO resources, design patterns into your next RPG project you work on, doing this would especially help with your transition into OO & Java.

[Jessica Lang]

Hi James,
Your comments sound real interesting to me. I shall keep that in mind…thanks for the ideas. Being an RPG programmer for more than 6 years, do you think he/she can cope to study the certification books rite away?.....rather than starting with the Java beginning first? I did some self-study on some fundamental knowledge in Java earlier on. I have decided to take some risks and go straight into the cert books (due to time constraint). What do you think?
Thanks again.....

[James Swan]

Hi Jessica,
I would say definitely go for the Java Programmer certification. The Programmer cert isn't so much about OO design/analysis but more about learning the language fundamentals etc. It might take a while (couple of months or so) but it's worth it.
It will give you a much better understanding of the language, and having the certification always looks good on your CV (resume)
I did the programmer cert last year, and even though I had been using Java at university and professionally, I found it gave me a better idea on how to more efficiently use the language.
Anyway, good luck,
James.

[Janet Wilson]

Hi everyone,
I just wanted to let everyone know that the following book:
"Object Orientation: Concepts, Analysis & Design, Languages, Databases, GUI, Standards" by Khoshafian
was not one of my better purchases for learning OO (luckily I got it used at a VERY discounted price on amazon - hmmm, maybe that should have screamed out at me??) and will probably collect some dust. Oh well, you win some / you lose some.
On a positive note, it's looking like "Applying UML and Patterns" by Larman is a good purchase.
Janet

[Jessica Lang]

Hi James,
Thanks for the great advice. I shall keep that in mind. BTW, r u from Australia?...If yes, any idea on how's the job market like there?....for RPG and Java? Thanks...

[James Swan]

Hi Jessica,
No I'm from New Zealand, but have been working in the San Francisco/Bay area for past 18 months or so.
Can't comment on job market in NZ, but it's pretty dire here in Silicon Valley

[Janet Wilson]

Originally posted by Leslie Chaim:

Here is an example of a simple Beginners book written by my personal BEST author and see how objects are covered right at the very beginning in chapter 3. I would not recommend this book for you as this is for REAL beginners. Nevertheless, in this book objects are covered BEFORE the very simple programming constructs such as conditionals and looping.

Just wanted to confirm Leslie's recommendation. This Java Beginner's book is EXTREMELY good! I like how he is introducing the various concepts. Thanks a bunch for recommending it Leslie!
Janet