Elections

[HS Thomas]

Blatant plagiarism / cut-and-paste/ OO inheritance/ from this siteWHITE HOUSE
(used to be tucked at the end of the post)
The Strange Third World Election
=======================================
1. Imagine that we read of an election occuring anywhere in the Third World in which the self-declared winner was the son of the former prime minister and that former prime minister was himself the former head of that nation's secret police (CIA).
2. Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular vote but won based on some old colonial holdover (the electoral college) from the nation's pre-democracy past.
3. Imagine that the self-declared winner's 'victory' turned on disputed votes cast in a province governed by his brother!
4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily favoring the self-declared winner's opponent, led thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate.
5. Imagine that that members of that nation's most despised caste, fearing for their lives/livelihoods, turned out in record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to the self-declared winner'scandidacy.
6. Imagine that hundreds of members of that most-despised caste were intercepted on their way to the polls by state police operating under the authority of the self-declared winner's brother.
7. Imagine that six million people voted in the disputed province and that the self-declared winner's 'lead' was only 327 votes. Fewer, certainly, than the vote counting machines' margin of error.
8. Imagine that the self-declared winner and his political party opposed a more careful by-hand inspection and re-counting of the ballots in the disputed province or in its most hotly disputed district.
9. Imagine that the self-declared winner, himself a governor of a major province, had the worst human rights record of any province in his nation and actually led the nation in executions.
10. Imagine that a major campaign promise of the self-declared winner was to appoint like-minded human rights violators to lifetime positions on the high court of that nation.
None of us would deem such an election to be representative of anything other than the self-declared winner's will-to-power. All of us, I imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that it was another sad tale of pitiful pre- or anti-democracy peoples in some strange elsewhere.
GREAT AUTHORS ON THE "RECOUNT"
=======================================
Dr. Seuss

I cannot count them in a box
I cannot count them with a fox
I cannot count them by computer
I will not with a Roto-Rooter
I cannot count them card-by-card
I will not 'cause it's way too hard
I cannot count them on my fingers
I will not while suspicion lingers.
I'll leave the country in a jam -
I won't count ballots, Sam-I-Am.
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Listen, my children, don't dare ignore,
The midnight actions of Bush and Gore
In early November, the year ought-ought,
Hard to believe the mess they wrought.
Two billion bucks of campaign bounty
All came down to Palm Beach County.
What result could have been horrider
Than the situation we found in Florider?
Britain's Edward Lear
There once was a U.S. election
That called for some expert detection -
How thousands of pollers
Could become double-holers
Then claim they had no recollection.
Edgar Allen Poe
Once upon a campaign dreary,
one which left us weak and weary
O'er many a quaint and curious promise of political lore
While we nodded, nearly napping,
suddenly there came a yapping,
As of some votes overlapping,
energy-zapping to the core
"'Tis a mess here," we all muttered,
as the network anchors stuttered,
Stuttered over Bush and Gore.
Could there be another election with such
a case of misdirection,
One with such a weak selection,
yet fraught with tension to the core?
Quoth the ravers, "Nevermore."
Ogden Nash
I regret to admit that all my knowledge is
What I learned at ElectoralColleges,
So tell me please, though I hate to troubya,
Will the winner be Al, or will it be Dubya?
Joyce Kilmer
I thought that I would never see
The networks all so up a tree.
Walt Whitman
O' Captain! My Captain! our
fearful trip's not done
The ship has weather'd every rack,
but nobody knows who's won.
Alfred Noyes
And still of an autumn night they say,
with the White House on the line,
When the campaign's a ghostly galleon
and both candidates cry, "'Tis mine!"
When the road is a ribbon of ballots,
all within easy reach,
A highwayman comes riding,
Riding, Riding,
A highwayman comes riding,
and punches two holes in each.
Clement Moore
'Twas the month before Christmas,
when all through the courts,
All the plaintiffs made
stirring bad ballot reports.
Which leaves the problem:
Perhaps the best way to stop complaints
that are raucous is
Start over again, with the Iowa caucuses.
Dr. Suess 2
Can we count them with our nose?
Can we count them with our toes?
Should we count them with a band?
Should we count them all by hand?
If I do not like the count,
I will simply throw them out!
I will not let this vote count stand
I do not like them, AL GORE I am!
Can we change these numbers here?
Can we change them, calm my fears?
What do you mean, Dubya has won?
This is not fair, this is not fun
Lets count them upside down this time
Lets count until the state is mine!
I will not let this VOTE count stand!
I do not like it, AL GORE I am!
I'm really ticked, I'm in a snit!
You have not heard the last of it!
I'll count the ballots one by one
And hold each one up to the sun!
I'll count, recount, and count some more!
You'll grow to hate this little chore
But I will not, cannot let this vote count stand!
I do not like it, Al Gore I am!
I won't leave office, I'm stayin' here!
I've glued my desk chair to my rear!
Tipper, Hillary, and Bubba too,
all telling me that I should sue!
We find the Electoral College vile!
RECOUNT the votes until I smile!
We do not want this vote to stand!
We do not like it, AL GORE I am!
How shall we count this ballot box?
Let's count it standing in our socks!
Shall we count this one in a tree?
And who shall count it, you or me?
We cannot, cannot count enough!
We must not stop, we must be tough!
I do not want this vote to stand!
I do not like it AL GORE I am!
I've counted till my fingers bleed!
And still can't fulfill my counting need!
I'll count the tiles on the floor!
I'll count, and count, and count some more!
And I will not say that I am done!
Until the counting says I've won!
I will not let this vote count stand!
I do not like it, AL GORE I am!
What's that? What? What are you trying to say?
You think the current count should stay?
You do not like my counting scheme?
It makes you tense, gives you bad dreams?
Foolish people, you're wrong you'll see!
You're only care should be for me!
I WILL NOT LET THIS VOTE COUNT STAND!
I DO NOT LIKE IT. AND AL GORE I AM!
[ October 08, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Anonymous]

.

[HS Thomas]

Like Dr Seuss who wouldn't find fault with any one nation, I searched for Underground Poems on British elections and came up with
Poems on the Underground
A Song
Laetitia Pilkington (1708 - 50)
Lying is an occupation
used by all who mean to rise:
Politicians owe there station
But to well-concerted lies.
These to lovers give assistance
To ensnare the fair one`s heart;
And the virgin`s best resisitance
Yields to this commanding art.
Study this superior science,
Would you rise in church or state;
Bid to truth a bold defiance,
Tis the practise of the great.
"Poems on the Underground (the tube)".
the difference between Brits and Americans when it comes to elections, is that Americans feel the need, the need for speed. For example, she points out, Brits "stand for election," while Americans "run for office."
Very little dirty washing on British Elections found today.
This is funny .
Political systems and Ideologies
Oh and J.K.Rowling gets bored with Harry Potter and kills him off in the 6th book.
regards
[ October 07, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[frank davis]

Of course this all in fun satire so there is no need to point out, "fact" by fact, that the obvious references to the US election are all lies or half-truths at best.
A half-truth/distortion/lie does not become true through mere repetetion, but those not adequately informed could be swayed, which I guess may be part of your intention with this post.
[ October 07, 2003: Message edited by: herb slocomb ]

[Paul Stevens]

Many actually believe it though Herb. How many know that the media conducted a full recount in Florida and that Bush still won? How many believe that the Florida supreme court threw out Florida law to let the recount go like it did? How many know that there were more voting irregularities in states like Wisconsin and Missouri than any where else? Belief means more than facts Herb.

[HS Thomas]

which I guess may be part of your intention with this post.

I'm all for being adequately informed. This posting would be a good starting point as it fits in with what's put out by the media.
What is adequately informed, anyway? Where does anyone get *adequate information* on anything ? How do they know when they are adequately informed.
I suppose when anyone is *content* that all is well, are they adequately informed.
No intention on posting, this discourse
Just mild amusement happened, of course
Welcome a view from a Floridee
With a good repartee

Or if someone could hunt out something similar on European elections. British elections seem to have become less significant event overall.
Britain is pretty much caught up in the American way while having to follow a European course (or as much as it is allowed to).
regards
[ October 07, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Joe Pluta]

The truth is that people will believe what they want to believe. What I find so amusing is that IIRC Florida wouldn't have even mattered had Gore carried HIS OWN STATE, or Clinton's.
And no matter what, the American people get to change Presidents next election if they so decide.
Joe

[Jason Menard]

What is adequately informed, anyway?
Given two general statements on a subject, one statement a truth and the other statement an untruth, the ability to discern which statement is truth and which isn't.
Where does anyone get *adequate information* on anything ?
Research research research.
How do they know when they are adequately informed.
When nobody posts a reply pointing out false information presented as fact.

[HS Thomas]

Research research research

I'll search till stops this greed!
And search still some more
to fulfill my researching need!
I'll search the pages on the net,
I'll search, and research, some more yet
Again I will not say that I have won!
Until they say I am done
To not be a collossus minx, methinks
Here's a list of useful links.
Florida recount study: Bush still wins
regards
[ October 07, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Jason Menard]

Or if someone could hunt out something similar on European elections. British elections seem to have become less significant event overall.
I'm often amused (or maybe even bemused?) by how infatuated much of the world is with American politics. The degree of loathing many outside the US have for Bush, particularly in Europe, is almost reason enough for me to vote for the man.
Britain is pretty much caught up in the American way while having to follow a European course (or as much as it is allowed to).
Having lived in the UK for a few years, I have never understood this one. Why on earth would the UK throw its lot in with a continent in which it has almost nothing in common with (outside of a slight socialist bent)? Rampant anti-Americanism aside, the UK is culturally very closely aligned with the US. One should not overlook the importance of a shared language, shared history, and shared values. Oh well, if you're happy with a primarily Franco-Belgian-German axis dictating your policies, that is certainly your choice to make.

[HS Thomas]

Jason , you lived in the UK ?

I have never understood this one.Why on earth would the UK throw its lot in with a continent in which it has almost nothing in common with (outside of a slight socialist bent)?

We are struggling to understand why ,too. There are cultural similarities and the parallel search for a Utopian society.
Britains are turning to look to Europe as that's where our future is being mapped from (those darned taxes and subsidies). That doesn't mean old ties are broken,but just that even older ties are being re-forged. Still, more Britains visit America than they do Europe and I should think that will continue.
About detesting Bush, I don't think that's true.It has become part of British culture to lampoon US Presidents and are our own Ministers. The Americans lampoon Bush and they'd lampoon Blair too. Do you see any Brits complaining ? No ! We are enjoying that too much.
Lampooning a European leader doesn't hold that much fun anymore. Not since Hitler. Some of the Euro Ministers soon, maybe.
In fact Shakespeare did quite a lot of lampooning of his own, much to the enjoyment of the peasants and the western world since.
regards
[ October 08, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[HS Thomas]

Why on earth would the UK throw its lot in with a continent in which it has almost nothing in common with (outside of a slight socialist bent)?

Geography may be the deciding factor. Not being at ease with your neighbours is not recommended. But what I fail to understand is why more Britains don't at least speak one other language fluently. French is the most common second language.

Politically , previously there wasn't much in common outside of a few royal intermarriages and that only mattered when royalty ruled. Culturally, there's quite a lot in common between England and Europe.
It's in Britain's interests to get on with it's neighbours. We are a small country after all in many respects.
regards
[ October 07, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Jeroen Wenting]

and the self-proclaimed 'democrats' still can't accept the fact that they lost an election 3 years ago...
Remember the 'popular' vote was NEVER completed!
Each state stops counting as soon as the majority vote FOR THAT STATE is in favour of any one candidate.
The popular vote cannot be simply extrapolated from that. 49% of the population of one state can very well be more than 51% of the population of another state, yet the people who say the sitting president lost the popular vote conveniently didn't take that into account (counting only the actually counted votes in each state).
In fact the ONLY state in which a full count was performed (and won by the currently sitting president by a narrow margin) was performed precisely because the margin was so narrow.
Extrapolating that result as being an average of the entire US population (and why not, the people that say the counted votes can be extrapolated linerearly to mean the entire population...) that means the sitting president DID win the popular vote (or would have had it been counted) by that same narrow margin.

[Paul Stevens]

I don't think that is right. They may not hand count absentee ballots but all others are tabulated and reported. Wisconsin, Missouri and Arizona where also very close. But Bush decided not to ask for a recount.

[Phil Chuang]

2. Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular vote but won based on some old colonial holdover (the electoral college) from the nation's pre-democracy past.

The founding fathers had a term for "true democracy"... and it was MOB RULE.
Terry Pratchett, best-selling author, likes to note that the IQ of a mob is inversely proportional to the number of people in it
If everybody was fully capable, informed, and wise, then there would be no problem with a mass popular vote.
As it is, the world is full of stupid people, so we can't really trust people as a whole to do things right

4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily favoring the self-declared winner's opponent, led thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate.

Hey, if PEOPLE ARE TOO STUPID TO VOTE then PEOPLE SHOULDN'T VOTE.

5. Imagine that that members of that nation's most despised caste, fearing for their lives/livelihoods, turned out in record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to the self-declared winner'scandidacy.

Despised? Why, because they imagine their state-handouts (welfare checks) may be in jeopardy and they may have to (gasp) get a job?

9. Imagine that the self-declared winner, himself a governor of a major province, had the worst human rights record of any province in his nation and actually led the nation in executions.

What human rights record? Because of executions? That becomes one point, not two. Anyway, a lot of people would call the punishment justice, and the crimes themselves the rights violations.

[Ernest Friedman-Hill]

And no matter what, the American people get to change Presidents next election if they so decide.

The irony of this statement, in this thread, is delicious.

[HS Thomas]

I haven't been following The California Total Recall Election
AKA The True Lies Election but it must throw up something interesting.

recall (Freudian slip)

[Thomas Paul]

10. Imagine that a major campaign promise of the self-declared winner was to appoint like-minded human rights violators to lifetime positions on the high court of that nation.
This one I don't get at all. By "human rights violators" do you mean people opposed to abortion?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Paul Stevens:
I don't think that is right. They may not hand count absentee ballots but all others are tabulated and reported. Wisconsin, Missouri and Arizona where also very close. But Bush decided not to ask for a recount.

It is definitely not right. But the candidates run by the rules. Bush didn't bother campaigning in New York, for example, because he knew he couldn't win. The people who supported him knew he couldn't win NY so there was less reason to bother going to the polls. Complaining that Gore should have won because he got the most votes is like complaining that your team should have won the baseball game because they got more hits.

[Thomas Paul]

2. Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular vote but won based on some old colonial holdover (the electoral college) from the nation's pre-democracy past.
The electoral college is not "some old colonial holdover". The electoral college was created in post-colonial days by the US Constitution and has been revised since then by a Constitutional ammendment. The electoral college serves the useful purpose of preventing a strictly regional candidate from being elected president.

[HS Thomas]

The site that the sartorial critique was otained from has been moved to the top of the first post:

Point no 10.
This point was more on executions than 'anti-abortionists' I feel.

A comment on cults, sects, and human rights issues in the USA , written by some Christian folk in the Netherlands who call themselves apologetics who "enjoy and use our right to freedom of opinion and freedom of speech".
IMO, it's just as bad not doing anything by sitting on the fence.
Cue Britain.
Without getting too hung up about it(just yet, as I don't think anyone has come up with anything better), and while America is to be mostly commended for the stand it takes, here's another link.
America's Human Rights Record
The wording seems strong (to me anyway), but these issues are close to these people's daily work and I hope it will be taken in the 'big picture' context of what other people think !
BTW, some of that resentment is also directed at Britain
regards
[ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

It is definitely not right. But the candidates run by the rules. Bush didn't bother campaigning in New York, for example, because he knew he couldn't win. The people who supported him knew he couldn't win NY so there was less reason to bother going to the polls. Complaining that Gore should have won because he got the most votes is like complaining that your team should have won the baseball game because they got more hits.

Gore lost despite trying to play outside the rules...
Trying to play outside the rules is called cheating, and is fraud.
Whether the Florida results should have been admissable or no is mute, under the law of the land they were admissable so they were counted.

[Thomas Paul]

I have to laugh. This is what these bozos consider "human rights violations":
For one thing, the U.S. government generally fails to acknowledge, let alone address, America's own human rights violations (e.g. use and promotion of the death penalty, a faulty "justice" system, multiple violations of international treaties, export of torture equipment, continuing trade war on Cuba, failing to curb hate groups, support of extremist groups such as the Church of Scientology, and so on).
1) The death penalty - how is executing criminals a "human rights violation"? They don't actually say. They just know that murderers shouldn't be executed.
2) a faulty "justice" system - As opposed to the perfect systems in Europe? The US justice system is based on a jury of peers, full disclosure of evidence to defendants, complete list of rights including protection from illegal searches. What exactly is faulty about it? That sometimes guilty people go free and innocent people are convicted? I guess the Europeans don't have that problem?
3) Violations of international treaties - How is this a "human rights violation"?
4) Export of torture equipment - What are they defining as "torture equipment"? Who is it exported to?
5) continuing trade war on Cuba - Trade war? if they mean the US refuszes to trade with Cuba that is true. But we aren't blockading Cuna or threatening other countries that do. So how is that a "human rights violation"?
6) failing to curb hate groups - In what way? Do they mean that we don't round up people for having views we don't like? That is true but I thought doing that would be a "human rights violation"!
7) support of extremist groups such as the Church of Scientology - see number 6.
And they wonder why we ignore them. :roll:

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by omar khan:

Human rights violations

And compare that to France:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Fra-summary-eng
or Germany:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Deu-summary-eng
What country are you from, Omar?

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
And they wonder why we ignore them. :roll:

My family had a parrot once, when I was young. It sat around most of the day, self-satisfied, preening itself. This creature had a generally disagreeable disposition , and you could almost sense that it was convinced of its own superiority. It really liked people to pay attention to it, so it would squawk quite loudly and quite often. It was really quite annoying actually. As loud as it squawked, and as often as it squawked, you just learned to tune it out for the most part. It wasn't like it was suddenly going to say anything new or unexpected. Every now and then you could toss it a cracker, and that would quiet it down and keep it happy for a bit, but as soon as the cracker was gone it would be back to its same antics.
There's an analogy here somewhere. :roll:

[HS Thomas]

I think omar is from Italy.
regards

[HS Thomas]

5) continuing trade war on Cuba - Trade war? if they mean the US refuszes to trade with Cuba that is true. But we aren't blockading Cuna or threatening other countries that do. So how is that a "human rights violation"?

This position was understandable in the light of the Cold War, but if this is still the case either memories run deep or the Cubans do not have anything left to trade with. Cuba became a popular tourist destination in the late 90's.
"The embargo by the USA against Cuba continued to contribute to a climate in which fundamental rights were denied."
Bush won't lift the embargo unless the Cubans have a multi-party system with elections.
And I also understand that :
1: The majority of Cubans are happy with their government though they will never be rich in the financial sense of the word
2: Since Russia withdrew it's financial support the Cubans have been supported in some way by the US (I have no confirmation that this is so)
3: Cuba has one of the worst records of prisoners of conscience.
4: Cubans have an enviable free medical system.
regards
[ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Thomas Paul]

"The embargo by the USA against Cuba continued to contribute to a climate in which fundamental rights were denied."
So Castro refuses to grant fundamental human rights because we won't buy cigars from him? Am I missing something?

[HS Thomas]

I think there's some interventionism at play and perhaps it suits both governments to ride out what has been a bad era in their shared history.
Unfortunately ,judging by the numbers of prisoners of conscience there are more than a few who would like a better future , and they'd like it now, thank you Uncle Sam.
The demand for a multi-party system is probably in order to coach a leader and thus get a neighbour the US can tolerate better (and which country wouldn't want that). But there must be other ways, grant you it really depends on what the history was 'twixt the two. Why else would they have had diplomats ? An under-represented body, these days, considering loads of Embassies have been closed down.

regards
[ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[frank davis]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:


And I also understand that :
1: The majority of Cubans are happy with their government though they will never be rich in the financial sense of the word
[ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

Living in Florida, just 50 miles from Cuba, and in Miami, which has a large population of Cuban refugees/exiles, gives me a much different perspective on this issue. Every week there is news of average Cubans leaving the island because they are unhappy. The basic right to leave their country is illegal however. By leaving they risk being caught by Castro's patrol boats and imprisoned. They also risk death. Many have drowned or died by exposure/lack of water in their attempt to reach the US. These average Cubans are not leaving because they are happy with their life in Cuba.
They have a national medical system, but the average Cuban has many other rights denied. Since it is a totalitarian/police state society, people are not free to express their views without repercussions. I wonder about the validity of the polling results you have researched saying most Cubans are happy with their govt.
[ October 09, 2003: Message edited by: herb slocomb ]

[frank davis]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

1. Imagine that we read of an election occuring anywhere in the Third World in which the self-declared winner was the son of the former prime minister and that former prime minister was himself the former head of that nation's secret police (CIA).
[ October 08, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ][/QB]

1) Unlike some Third World countries, a candidate cannot be a self-declared winner. There's a defined legal process and system that has to be followed; and there's an independent branch of govt to oversee that process. Now, whether you agree with the process or with the decision of the Supreme Court is another matter. In any event, the overwhelming majority of Americans accept the legitimacy of the Bush presidency.
2) The fact that Bush Sr was the head of the CIA is relevant in what way?
Are we trying to leave open the possibility that Bush Sr still controls the CIA? That the CIA influenced the election?
3) The term "secret police" is not exactly equivalent to the CIA. In the US, there are distinctions between military and civilian police, and there are distinctions between domestic criminal issues which are the province of the FBI, and issues relating to national security which are the province of the CIA. I'm not saying there is never any overlap, but they are different, separate, and independent agencies. It is not accurate to characterize the CIA as a "secret police" in the same way that other nations organize their "secret police".

[frank davis]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:


4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily favoring the self-declared winner's opponent, led thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate.
[ October 08, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

1.) Within the state of Florida are various districts. The district that composed the "poorly drafted ballots" was controlled by Democrats. Democrats were resposible for the ballot desgin and wording in Palm Beach county Florida. Bush is a Republican.
2.) Imagine that these "poorly drafted ballots" were given to students (ages 10-11) in various US public schools and those students are able understand those ballots. This was actually done in several States. What does this say about the mental capacity of the whining Democrats?
Furthermore, the ballot design was posted and publicized in advance of the election. For those that are "slow", had they enough sense, they could have
and should have resolved any doubts prior to stepping into the voting booth.
At the time of this controversy, a co-worker of mine conceded that she told her elderly mother who to vote for. Although this would make another good discussion thread, people who are mentally incompetent and/or completly ignorant should not be the swing vote in deciding who leads the greatest economic and military power on planet Earth.

[frank davis]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
6. Imagine that hundreds of members of that most-despised caste were intercepted on their way to the polls by state police operating under the authority of the self-declared winner's brother.
[ October 08, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

This one is a complete lie. Here's how it got started : A few blacks complained that they saw some police cars posted near some polling stations.
They alleged they felt intimadated by the mere presence of the police.
There is absolutely no evidence that police began systmatically intercepting blacks on the way to vote. The majority of blacks are Democratic, so if you're into conspiracies, put your mind to work on that fact.

[HS Thomas]

Well replied, herb. YOu give a lot of insight to what happened in Florida.

I wonder about the validity of the polling results you have researched saying most Cubans are happy with their govt.

CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland :
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
"U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds � just not push the envelope."
From the same site: Quotable Quotes
You'd find many more similar articles on the web.
[ October 10, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[HS Thomas]

For arguments sake, just imagine the unthinkable. In a period of prolonged global social change the rest of the world puts an embargo on trade with the US.

Could you see a revolution in the rest of the world based on a Havanian style , following those other 'great' revolutions, French and American ?
In light of Cuban achievements in medical care and education for a very poor country through the effective management of very scarce resources; many see this as a valid lesson for some of the poorest countries.
See East-West debt.
If infant-morality rate is the indicator of medical-care , the Cubans have 'better' care than the USA.
The Cubans think they live in a democracy even though there is only one Communist Party. The people vote for the people in government in open meetings.
BTW, thanks for bearing this examination out.
regards
[ October 10, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[frank davis]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland :
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
"U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds � just not push the envelope."

Overall, I'll have to concede that "authoritarian" is a more correct description. However, there are still totalitarian aspects in that the police and the police informants have heavily infilitrated every aspect and activity of Cuban life. The "bounds" of permissable activity can change at any moment and often do at the whim of Castro. So, depending on when you choose to evaluate Cuba, you can come to different conclusions as to how free the people really are. There are numerous documented human rights abuses by Castro. One website gives the names and details of about 5,000 people who were killed in some manner by the current dictator. (If someone seriously challenges me on this I'll find the URL)
The first link you give above seems balanced, but it also mentioned that nearly 1/3 of the of the people would leave if given the chance. This is an incredibly astonishing number considering the ties to the land, traditions, family associations, and language that people normally have to their homeland. With a number that high, it seems incongrous to claim that the majority of Cubans are happy with their life in Cuba (many will not be sufficiently un-happy to leave, yet this does not mean that they are happy with the current dictator)
The other link you gave I found too propagandistic to merit a response.
[ October 10, 2003: Message edited by: herb slocomb ]

[frank davis]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
In light of Cuban achievements in medical care and education for a very poor country through the effective management of very scarce resources; many see this as a valid lesson for some of the poorest countries.

How about modeling yourself after other resource scarce countries that have done much, much better? South Korea, while not as resource poor as Cuba, has had done an incredibly awesome job in raising its living standards during the same time period Castro has been in power. Cuba's citizens are notably poorer and less free than South Korea's citizens. Hong Kong and Japan, also islands like Cuba, and also resource poor, are economic powerhouses and their citizens immeasurably better off than in Cuba.
Let's also not forgot that while Castro built up his medical system he was subsidized by the USSR. Is this subsidy part of the model other nations should emulate (sort of hard to do now)?

BTW, thanks for bearing this examination out.

Alas, duty requires it...

[frank davis]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

If infant-morality rate is the indicator of medical-care , the Cubans have 'better' care than the USA.

[ October 10, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

Since the leftists are always pointing to the one achievement of Castro's regime, the medical system, I just had the thought that the fascists should likewise emphasize the tremendous achievements they made in improving the transportation systems of their countries. The German autobahn was a noteworthy achievement and at least in the 1940's the Italian trains did run on time. I guess the obvious way to Utopia is to combine both fascism and communism, ending up with both a great medical and transportation system

[HS Thomas]

Well , I do agree that Castro is the fly in the ointment. I was thinking more about the spirit of the Cuban people in recent history. I am sure there are some real shockers in Cuban-Castro history.

Amnesty International doesn't mention the 5,000. Perhaps the Human-rights violation claim happened much earlier. As most claims, do these get time-barred ?
[Aside]Those other countries you mentioned were once synonymous with quality and affordable goods - but I have always looked for reliability and found it with European goods even though I paid a bit more. When it came to engineering I trusted German or Italian. I once had a Japanese car not too long ago and I hated it. Now, I may consider buying a car from the countries you mentioned as some of that European reliability has dropped considerably from out-sourcing the manufacture to poorer European countries. Manufacture has served the countries you mentioned well and they are ,indeed, economic powerhouses.[/Aside]
Actually this was supposed to be the second link:
Quotable Quotes but the page displays the other link.
Interestingly, most propogandaist sites in favour of Cuba seem to have a Canadian hosting. Does that tell the USA something about what their neighbours think ? Is this why America doesn't do a "raze 'em and raise 'em" on Cuba as it might offend their neighbours ?
Thanks for an enlightening answer but don't if it pains you.
I only pursued this because of the apparent evasion on human rights violations.Which America is not the only one country to do so!
I shall be following with more dedication on the alleged rape of Kenyan women by British soldiers over several decades probably in a thread visited by Kenyans - another authoritarian power - so more than likely it will be an English thread and watch to see if "justice prevails".
While I remain naive about some things , there is hope.
regards
[ October 10, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[HS Thomas]

Originally posted by herb slocomb:
I guess the obvious way to Utopia is to combine both fascism and communism, ending up with both a great medical and transportation system

Did you peek while I was composing my post ?
A great medical and transportation system will be really appreciated where I live.
:roll:
regards
[ October 10, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]