Theist , atheist, agnostic and dead body.

[R K Singh]

I was thinking to ask your opinion for a long time but some how as usual was not getting time.
The moment we say God, religion comes in to picture, the moment religion comes into action a society is formed. As society cant be wihout a set of rules. Rules/customs/rituals are formed to follow/worship the particular God.
These rules govern all activities of man, starting from birth to marriage to death.
Now I can ask, why do we need a God ?
Let me answer my question first , in very simple words because we need someone to control our social life.
Very true we dont need any God if our social life is controled by Law. May I call law, God ??
But IMHO God was created out of fear of uncontrolled things like rain, lightning and other nature's gift, which were unexplained at that time. Am I trying to see God from the spectacles of science? No, I am saying God is like Ghost, which does things which we dont understand. Miracles are always associated with God, right.
And as usual when ever we have one set of rules there will be group of people who will oppose that and so here we have all religions divided in to atleast two branches.
Till now we have talked only about theist.
Athiest/agnostic is as much part of society as much theist. He marries the way soceity approves [let the marriage be in court.] etc.
But atheist is really atheist ??
Does he decide what should be done with his dead body. [I dont think more than 1% donate their dead body to medical collages]. So if you are in christian/muslim country and somehow your religion is unknown most likely you will be buried. If you are in India you might be burned.
It reminds me of a poor joke.
Question: what will you do if you find a dead body ?
Answer : I will try to find his religion.
Question : Why ?
Answer : So that I can know whether he is suppose to burn or bury or left out for animals ??
I think atheist is one who denies the custom/rites of one religion.
Why one should deny the customs? It will be denied if it wont change with time.
So the customs which wont change with time will be questioned. And who ever will ask these questions will be 'made' atheist.
OR God is supernatural phenomenon which control our life and death but let society decide what to do with dead body ???
OR God is fate which sometimes is in your favor and sometimes disappoints ?
OR God just wants everyone else to fight in His name and still say that all religion preach peace but none practise and you will be get special attention on dooms day if you join my religion.
I think today if some one claim to be ranting God's words, he will be sent to psychiatrist.
Do we really need God ??
Yes, to decide what to do with my dead body, we need God.
To decide how should I marry one, we need God.
To celebrate festivals.
We also need God to kill people
We also need God to claim land.
We also need God for our own purposes.
Did I confuse you ... I am already and by now...

[Anonymous]

Question for Map:
What do communist USSR people do with dead body ?
And what about now ??

[John Smith]

What do communist USSR people do with dead body ?
Well, the communists were necrophilacs, so they built those fancy mausoleums for people that were particulary sexually attractive. The dead would be preserved for many years so that the general public would visit them after life.
Nowdays, the communists are as pragmatic as the capitalist pigs, -- they just dig a hole 6 feet deep, and leave the body rot and feed the earth worms.
And that brings us to the question of God. Where was that little sucker when the mothers in the nazi-blockaded Leningrad were forced to eat their dead children, who in turn died of malnutrition? Well, the deity was definitely on the belts of the nazi soldiers: "God is with us".
[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]

[Dave Vick]

Hey, worms have to eat too you know

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
What do communist USSR people do with dead body ?
They built those fancy mausoleums for people that were particulary sexually attractive.

So what they would have done with you in case of your death ?
May I assume that dead were/are buried in ex-USSR ?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
"God is with us".

Good movie to watch.
I dont recollect name of another movie, that was also good movie[true story, time period was 1400s or 1600s], in the end, main actress was burned alive, because people thought that her actions and dressing were against Christianity.
[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Jeroen Wenting]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

So what they would have done with you in case of your death ?
May I assume that dead were/are buried in ex-USSR ?

Only those who died of natural causes in times when menial labour was cheaper than gas or oil to fuel the crematorium.
If anything, the Soviets were pragmatic about such things, cheapest way to dispose of leftovers was preferred (apart from exceptions like Lenin).

[Thomas Paul]

The purpose of a funeral has nothing to do with the feelings of the dead person. They are dead and wouldn't care if you burned, buried, or ate their corpse (three points for correctly identifying the reference). The purpose of the funeral is for the living. It is to create an opportunity to grieve for the dead. Burying allows you a place to go to remember the dead person and think about the time you spent with them. Atheists have feelings too and mourn their dead just like religious people do. To suggest that they should simply toss their spouse's corpse in the trash just because they don't believe in god is an insult.

[paul wheaton]

I have a friend, when you ask him his religion he says "pedestrian".

[Jim Yingst]

[Tom]: Atheists have feelings too and mourn their dead just like religious people do. To suggest that they should simply toss their spouse's corpse in the trash just because they don't believe in god is an insult.
Tom, was this in reference to
[RKS]: Answer : So that I can know whether he is suppose to burn or bury or left out for animals ??
? I'm not sure I understand what Ravish is saying, but the original "joke" is probably referencing Zoroastrianism. The Parsis ("Persians", a big group of Zoroastrians from Iran who emigrated to India centuries ago) are known for the Towers of Silence which they use to dispose of the dead. The theory seems to be that fire, earth, air and water are sacred and not to be defiled by dead bodies. Hence no burial or cremation. So instead bodies are left in sacred wells atop these towers, where vultures may consume the corpses. I guess fire and earth are more sacred than air and water, since the latter two will surely contact the dead during this process. I'd also note that fire is regarded as a sacred purifier - well if so, I'm not sure why it can't purify dead bodies. But anyway, letting animals (vultures, specifically) consume the dead is standard practice for Zoroastrianism, and well-known in India. I'm not sure what Zoroastrians elsewhere do; in general they're fairly rare except in India and Iran. (And I don't think Iran is too big on the idea of letting a minority religion build a bunch of towers to expose the dead.)
[RKS]: May I call law, God ??
I suppose, but beware that other people will have other connotations for the term.
[RKS]: I think atheist is one who denies the custom/rites of one religion.
Perhaps, but there are plenty of people who reject the customs of the religion they were originally raised in, without becoming atheists. There's also the possiblity of worshipping a different god, or following a different religion which describes God differently, or starting a new religion entirely (which has happened once or twice in human history).
[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
Tom, was this in reference to...

Actualy it was in reference to this: But atheist is really atheist ?? Does he decide what should be done with his dead body. [I dont think more than 1% donate their dead body to medical collages]. which makes it sound as if atheists should care nothing about their bodies or what should happen to them after they are dead.

[John Smith]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

Good movie to watch.

I like "Dogma" much better. "Stigmata" is to "Dogma" is what "Beauty and the Beast" is to "Godfather".

[Jim Yingst]

[RKS]: I dont recollect name of another movie, that was also good movie[true story, time period was 1400s or 1600s], in the end, main actress was burned alive, because people thought that her actions and dressing were against Christianity.
Joan of Arc perhaps? Several movies have been made, best known are:
Joan of Arc,
Messenger, The Story of Joan of Arc, 1999
Joan of Arc, 1999
I think historically, it's not so much that she was seen as "against Christianity" but that she was seen as a someone - a woman, no less - who rivaled existing church leaders for power. So sure, the church leaders cast her as a heretic. But that's just an example of people in power acting to retain that power, and history being written by the victors.
[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
I think historically, it's not so much that she was seen as "against Christianity" but that she was seen as a someone - a woman, no less - who rivaled existing church leaders for power. So sure, the church leaders cast her as a heretic. But that's just an example of people in power acting to retain that power, and history being written by the victors.

Let's get this straight... Jean D'Arc was not burned because she was a heretic. That was the excuse that the English used. She was captured by the English and the French did nothing to help her. The French king was nervous about the power Jean had gathered during her campaign against the English. When the English got hold of her they found a friendly Bishop who agreed to try her and execute her. The fix was in from the start. She was tried and then handed over to the civil authorities to be burned at the stake. She was not burned because she was seen as a threat by any Church leader. She was burned because she had been leading victorious French armies against the English and the French had no further use for her. By the way, she was retried 26 years later and found not guilty of heresy (a little too late for Jean). She was named a Saint in 1920.

[Jim Yingst]

Thanks for the clarification, Tom.

[Dan Chisholm]

Eugene,
I don't want to argue for or against the existence of God. Based on world history, I think it is easy to imagine that the world would be a more peaceful place without religion or at least without organized religion. I'm just responding because your comments remind me of two guys that I once worked with. One was from Bulgaria and the other was from Iran. Both were in complete agreement with your statement that the atrocities that take place on earth are proof that no God exists. Personally, I don't believe that anyone here on earth can prove the question of existence one way or the other. I'm only responding here with an example of why the atrocity argument is not necessarily proof. Instead, it is only applicable if God is responsible for maintaining order here on earth. Isn't it possible that creating heaven on earth is not part of the job description?
People often ask why we are here. If God exists, then why doesn't he/she make an appearance and identify the one true religion and the one true set of laws? Is it because God does not really exist or is there another reason? Is it possible that the purpose of earth is to provide a place to learn from our own experiences? Is it possible that God has no intention of imposing any rules or enforcing peace or creating heaven on earth?
Maybe we shouldn't be asking why God doesn't do more for us. Maybe we should ask why we haven't done more for ourselves.

[Mapraputa Is]

Ravish: What do communist USSR people do with dead body ?
Keep in mind that the USSR consisted of what is now 15 different states. I very doubt there was one tradition for all USSR people. In Russia, dead bodies are buried on the 3rd (or maybe it's the 4th, in 3 days) day after the death. I heard that according to Muslim traditions, a body should be buried the same day, which makes sense considering hot climate in many of these countries. Talking about Russia again, there is a traditional family gathering -- pominki, which is made the funeral day, then on 9th and 40th day, and then a year after. I am not sure about origins of this tradition, our people believe it's Christian, but I also heard it goes back to pagan times.
Dan: Instead, it is only applicable if God is responsible for maintaining order here on earth. Isn't it possible that creating heaven on earth is not part of the job description? <...> Is it possible that the purpose of earth is to provide a place to learn from our own experiences? Is it possible that God has no intention of imposing any rules or enforcing peace or creating heaven on earth?
This is close enough to my own beliefs. Replace "God" with "evolution" and we are even closer.
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"If I used a signature this would be quoted in it" -- Pauline McNamara

[Dan Chisholm]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
This is close enough to my own beliefs. Replace "God" with "evolution" and we are even closer.

I have no objection to the change of semantics. One term suggests personal identity and the other does not. Either interpretation is fine with me.

[HS Thomas]

There is this saying - (I don't know who said it, but think Mother Teresa, born in Skopje, Yugoslavia (what is now Macedonia). I should think everyone knows where she is resident now) :
"Remember that you are not your country, your race, or your religion. You are an eternal spirit. Seeing yourself as a spiritual being without labels is a way to transform the world and reach a sacred place for all of humanity".
To the extremists who hold this view anyone who makes contact is valuable. The petty tyrants just as much as those who provide encouragement and support.Those judged to be unfortunate or evil can teach the greatest lessons. Being killed by tyrants is one of them but then death is a passage to further lessons on another plane.

Children are all spirit. I'd be comfortable with the view that children are theists, but it would be sad if they learnt no lessons from life.
"Prejudiced thinking comes from treating your mind like a rental space for the thoughts and beliefs of others. The antidote for toxic , prejudging thoughts is to suspend your ego and listen to your higher self. You will begin knowing that no one on this planet is superior or special in the eyes of the higher being, just as no one is non-special."
Ego <-----> intervention (vicious cycle)
Higher self -----> peace and harmony (one-way ticket)
"Try on the concept that beliefs restrict you, while knowing empowers you. A belief is merely a mental note attached to your lapel by your mommy. A knowing is etched into the cells of your being, and therefore lives within your being, and therefore lives within you with an absence of doubt."

More advice :
Keep a journal. In it ,describe what offends you about other people. If you can be objective, you will find that what offends you is really a judgement about how others should be behaving. These judgements are that false idea of yourself, convincing you that the world ought to be as you are, rather than as it is.
Examine everything that offends you and see if you can get your ego out of the picture. When you are offended you are actually thinking,this is awful. How could God allow it ? Release your ego then act upon that which you can.
regards

[HS Thomas]

See in one post is covered all - Theist , atheist, agnostic and dead body philosophies.
I think the break down is :
Theist - subscribes to one belief.
Atheist - subscribes to no belief but does not know
Agnostic - used to be a theist or atheist but now sits on fence
Dead body - the here-after of all theists, atheists, and agnostics.
You could add one more dimension - the spirit or soul.
A poor soul is not understood to be poor in financial accumulation but poor in some other sense. A sad soul may be more descriptive.
A happy soul is descriptive.
A tormented soul.
A fortunate soul.
A demented soul.
If you had the choice of being right or being kind what would you rather be ?

regards
[ October 14, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Anonymous]

Talking about Russia again, there is a traditional family gathering -- pominki, which is made the funeral day, then on 9th and 40th day, and then a year after.
If I am not wrong then, its Muslim tradition. Atleast Indian Saiyyad Muslim tradition for sure.

[Mapraputa Is]

Sure. But Muslims's dates are 3, 7, 40 days if I am not mistaken.
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"No language can express every thought unambiguously, least of all this one." -- D. Hofstadter, Metamagical themas

[HS Thomas]

40 days

40 days is significant because that's when it's attributed that Jesus rose from the dead?
I'm curious to know "Why 40 days in the Muslim tradition? " from a historical perspective.
BTW what's the proper way of adding punctuation marks within a quote, inside or outside the " ? The Americans do it one way and the English,properly (the proper English, not that it's the correct way),another ?
regards
[ October 15, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Mapraputa Is]

American:
"some words here," wrote XXX.
Russian:
"some words here", - wrote XXX.
In both languages question marks and exclamation point should be inside quotation marks unless they apply to the whole sentence.
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"It's getting really babylonic here" -- Chris Baron

[R K Singh]

I'm not sure I understand what Ravish is saying, but the original "joke" is probably referencing Zoroastrianism.
You are right Jim. I was talking about Parsis. Thanks for clarifying it.
The theory seems to be that fire, earth, air and water are sacred and not to be defiled by dead bodies. Hence no burial or cremation.
What I know is that, they believe that whole life they eat animal's meat now its their time[after death] to give back their body to animal for same purpose.
I like this philosphy.
there are plenty of people who reject the customs of the religion they were originally raised in, without becoming atheists.
I think only these religions can survive over the time which accepts changes with time and respects others.
starting a new religion entirely (which has happened once or twice in human history).
or more than that.
Forget about starting, even people may make an atheist(Gautam Budha/ Mahabir) a God.
[There is very good poem on Budha by Dr. Harivansh Rai Bachchan, I wish you could understand Hindi and I could share it with you.]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:

Joan of Arc

Yes.. what I liked in that movie was the end part when she was talking to herself assuming that she was talking to God or I missed something...

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
To suggest that they should simply toss their spouse's corpse in the trash just because they don't believe in God is an insult.

You miss the point.
What I am trying to say that, there are somethings [lot of things] which we do because we belong to that religion/society. God has nothing to do with that.
Like having ceremonies before marriage and after marriage, before first child etc [it includes what to do with dead body also]
If I am an atheist why would I like to bury my spouse, why not cremate it or ...
Chances are if I am in US then I will bury my spouse and if I am in India I will cremate my spouse. [here I am atheist not my spouse, my spouse might be as religious as she want]
Now if I[atheist] die, then what should be done. I am atheist. I dont belive in any religion and hence in any God.[I dont mind my body to be thrown in trash, iff from there it can be taken to some plant which helps to generate electricity from corpse]
Anyone, what should be done with dead body of atheist ??
Or let the soceity, whom I, my whole life spent fighting/arguing that I dont believe in their rituals and customs, decide what to be done with my dead body ???

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
which makes it sound as if atheists should care nothing about their bodies or what should happen to them after they are dead.

I missed this one.
Good question ..
Should atheist/anyone cares about their own corpse ??
or what should happen to them after they are dead ??[it sounds like theist: I will go to hell/heaven]

[Jim Yingst]

BTW what's the proper way of adding punctuation marks within a quote, inside or outside the " ? The Americans do it one way and the English,properly (the proper English, not that it's the correct way),another ?
Map's answer is correct. For American at least; I only assume she's correct about the Russian. Note that this is something where ever since shortly after I learned programming, I made a conscious decision to reject the standard American style here, as the it's just obviously wrong from my perspective. It wasn't until much later that I learned other countries were doing it differently. (I have no idea what the rule was in Italian.) So regarding use of punctuation inside quotes, don't take my own posts as an indicator of American style.

[Jim Yingst]

[RKS]: Should atheist/anyone cares about their own corpse ??
I don't know about should. Seems like a personal choice. Personally I don't, except to hope that some organs may be used by someone who needs them. Beyond that, I don't care. However I do have family and friends who may possibly care, and as Thomas correctly points out, the funeral is really for the survivors, not the deceased. So they can do what makes the most sense to them.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
So they can do what makes the most sense to them.

Originally posted by R K Singh:
Or let the soceity, whom I, my whole life spent fighting/arguing that I dont believe in their rituals and customs, their God/s, decide what to be done with my dead body ???

[Mapraputa Is]

Jim: Map's answer is correct. For American at least; I only assume she's correct about the Russian.
Hey, I consulted with the Reference on Russian Grammar which was send to me by my parents, who had to obtain a special permit for sending it to this country in Ministry of Culture, which trauma they had to cure by taking in a certain amount of vodka my father bought in the only store that is never closed in my city -- the store that sells alcohol. Never mind, I am reading Khazar's dictionary All I said is true, though.
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"No language can express every thought unambiguously, least of all this one." -- D. Hofstadter, Metamagical themas

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Sure. But Muslims's dates are 3, 7, 40 days if I am not mistaken.

I am sure about 40 days and 1 yr after the demise there is some sort of gathering.
Why there were some kinda function after 40 days and after 1 yr in communist country ?? [which I suppose does not belive in God/Hell/Heaven] and what religion [in your area, atleast] was there before communism ??

[Anonymous]

Mapraputa Is posted October 15, 2003 01:44 AM
Mapraputa Is posted October 15, 2003 04:28 AM
Did you sleep or were reading some book ??

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by R K Singh:
Or let the soceity, whom I, my whole life spent fighting/arguing that I dont believe in their rituals and customs, their God/s, decide what to be done with my dead body ???

What makes you think atheists fight/argue about customes of their society? I doubt Jim goes into his boss' office on December 24th and demand that the office remain open so he can work on the 25th!
By the way, the tradition of 40 days probably comes from the time between Easter and Ascension Thursday. That is the time between the Resurrection of Jesus and his return to heaven.

[Mapraputa Is]

Why there were some kinda function after 40 days and after 1 yr in communist country ?? [which I suppose does not belive in God/Hell/Heaven]
Even communists aren't omnipotent. Some pagan rituals survived 1000 years of Christianity, what do you expect from 70 years of communism.
and what religion [in your area, atleast] was there before communism??
Orthodox Christianity.
Did you sleep or were reading some book ??
Reading Khazar's dictionary. Insomnia.
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"If I used a signature this would be quoted in it" -- Pauline McNamara

[Anonymous]

[TP]What makes you think atheists fight/argue about customs of their society?
I did not mean literally.
I meant when your society said to go to Chruch on Sunday, you fought* and did not go.
*fought: You did not slap your neighbour or argued with him why was he going. You fought with yourself why it did not make sense to you even though ......
PS: Please read you as I.
[TP]I doubt Jim goes into his boss' office on December 24th and demand that the office remain open so he can work on the 25th!
So what do you think Jim will do with his all money if he wont spend it in X-mas
Check this.

[HS Thomas]

RK: There is very good poem on Budha by Dr. Harivansh Rai Bachchan, I wish you could understand Hindi and I could share it with you.]

You could try translating it!
regards

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
You could try translating it!
regards

You dont know what are you asking for ......
Jason and other Pandits will suicide
And if I get time then surely I will try

[HS Thomas]

A very good poem on Buddha would not usually be associated with being destructive.
Dr Who?
regards